Should UK manufacturers develop more products for Continental Europe?

[hst43102]

Yeah true. One of the many things I love about the UK. Practically everywhere in the UK is now ordering electric buses, and London even has the largest electric bus fleet in the whole of Europe!!!

Whilst in Continental Europe, hardly anyone seems to be ordering electric buses. They all seem to prefer hybrids and CNGs, for now.

They do have trolleybuses in continental Europe!
And I'm not sure "practically everywhere" in the UK has ordered electrics. London has a fair few, Stagecoach has ordered some for Manchester and there are some scattered orders in other areas. Nothing in substantial quantities yet...

 

[MotCO]

I suspect the move towards electric buses will affect things anyway, to me the BYD/ADL E200EV feels more substantial and like a heavyweight bus than the regular E200MMC

Won't the batteries require a heavy-weight chassis?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

They do have trolleybuses in continental Europe!
And I'm not sure "practically everywhere" in the UK has ordered electrics. London has a fair few, Stagecoach has ordered some for Manchester and there are some scattered orders in other areas. Nothing in substantial quantities yet...

True, but still, London has the largest electric bus fleet in Europe.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I've no experience of the Evora but the build quality on our Evosetis is shocking, that's partly why after the Go Ahead takeover we switched to ADL.

The operators who have used the Evora in the Republic of Ireland has said the same. Most of them only ordered them as there was no other real choice due to a combination of things.

Those being ADL's presence in Ireland for sales and service being close to zero, Volvo's dominance of the chassis market and by far the best service and support market on the Island, the reluctance of Wright to build Eclipses on the B8RLE unless you pay them a crazy price and more latterly the collapse of Wrightbus which meant even Streetlites were not an option. For small companies there was really no other sensible option than the Evora as Mercedes were not keen on building small numbers.

Now ADL have got a contract for several hundred integral hybrid electrics in Ireland I would expect them to become a major force there in the coming years both there and in Northern Ireland as it allows them to build scale. Volvo and to a lesser degree Wright had sales and service networks and a presence on the island that dwarfed the competition and were virtually a shoo-in for any tender they went in for unless they were competing with each other. The trouble is Volvo were fully reliant on Wright as a subcontractor in Ireland and when Wright went bust it allowed ADL to win a tender they would never otherwise have done and Volvo is likely t count the cost for years to come.

 

[Swanny200]

I'm afraid that's incorrect. That vehicle is a Citaro O295

The C2 is still active but not in it's original form as it's since been facelifted. The C2.2, the revised version can still be ordered in right hand drive as the C2.3 has not been adapted for right hand drive yet.

The CapaCity, like the Conecto is product family in it's own right. It is a super long arctic. They have been influenced by the Citaro, but they have never been badged as Citaros and should not be considered as one.

The Original CapaCity (O530 GL) has been around since 2007 and the first version was different from the standard Citaro because despite being approx 2m longer than the 17.5m Citaro artic, it had a similar turning circle thanks to it's fourth axle which was electro hydraulically steered and modified front suspension. It can be seen in Istanbul, Granada and Bratislava.

In 2014 they then developed the technology to create the next generation CapaCity L (O530 GL II) which was a longer, more modern version aimed at BRT deployments really and also included among other things an update to the suspension, a reduction in body weight and new articulated turntable technology. Also a shorter version was then developed at 19.7m and replaced the original CapaCity, taking over that name. It can be seen in Vienna, various places in the Netherlands and Bratislava.

The main competitor of the CapaCity is the MAN Lion City GXL.

I did say a few posts ago that I must have been mistaken, from looking at the pictures of when it was at GNE last year it was mentioned that it was the CapaCity GL, (think someone needs to tell a few people on flickr that they are wrong), I am therefore right in assuming that the only new CapaCity model that is in this country then is the one at one of the airports in the south.

 

[Swanny200]

The Panther LE wouldn't sell in Europe. The capacity of it is far too low for the size of when when compared to the other "interurban" style vehicles on the market.



No they never did, the only Artic ADL/Alexanders ever built was K1GRT. ADLs position has long been that they won't develop an artic as they have the Enviro500 already.

I don't know how I didn't add K1GRT into that statement, apart from that one off (how expensive was that endeavour then?) and the Plaxton artic coaches I would assume that they have next to no experience in that field.

 

[Swanny200]

The problem with them is not that they are low floor, more that the standard SB3 itself was designed for the B8R high line coach body and never for a low entry layout based on a bus chassis.

Rather than design a low floor product in it's own right for the B8RLE chassis, they just tried to keep as much common as possible between the two versions which resulted in some questionable design choices being made in the sake of keeping things in common and saving money to aid their chances of winning a tender.

Here's the layout of the low floor SB3 LE B8RLE (CLICK HERE) from here.
Here's the high floor SB3 B8R (click) from here.

As you can see, it's not a great conversion.

What a waste of glass above the Luggage rack, I seriously wonder that if that was how they were built, what other things are badly done and how long will they last in a fleet.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I did say a few posts ago that I must have been mistaken, from looking at the pictures of when it was at GNE last year it was mentioned that it was the CapaCity GL, (think someone needs to tell a few people on flickr that they are wrong), I am therefore right in assuming that the only new CapaCity model that is in this country then is the one at one of the airports in the south.

The CapaCity is a super long four axle articulated vehicle and always has been.

This is the original CapaCity

S-SB 7706 - MB CapaCity

Stuttgarter Strasssenbahnen 7706 on Route 42 at Schlossplatz, 70173 Stuttgart

www.flickr.com

This is the original CapaCity with the BRT body version

Mercedes-Benz O 530 GL CapaCity bus 4917

Bratislava Public Transport Company Mercedes-Benz O 530 GL CapaCity bus, reg. BL723AG, fleet No 4917, operating service 83 to Dúbravka, here seen on Pražská Street in Bratislava.

www.flickr.com

This is the newer CapaCity with standard front.

Mercedes-Benz CapaCity L #MA-MB_165 | Dresden

Explore Philip Klug's 605 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

For some reason when some of the Dutch CapaCitys were repainted, they got Citaro badges.

 

[507021]

You mean the Citaro C2? Again, incorrect. Cardiff Bus bought 20 of them, Blackpool Transport have 9 of them operating on their Palladium route 5. Kinchbus have them on the Skylink. And there's McGills and various other indipendent bus companies that do have a couple of Citaro C2s.

Bus Vannin have had plenty of Citaros over the past decade too, 30 O530s, 14 O295s and 8 O295Ks. They have started replacing the earlier O530s fairly recently in order to get a decent resale value, but I expect Bus Vannin will probably acquire more O295s in the future.

EDIT: I forgot that Rotala are also a fairly large operator of the Citaro as well. I'm not sure exactly how many, though.

 

[Arriva Fan]

Bus Vannin have had plenty of Citaros over the past decade too, 30 O530s, 14 O295s and 8 O295Ks. They have started replacing the earlier O530s fairly recently in order to get a decent resale value, but I expect Bus Vannin will probably acquire more O295s in the future.

EDIT: I forgot that Rotala are also a fairly large operator of the Citaro as well. I'm not sure exactly how many, though.

They're not in the uk though, and are the Nationalised State Operator. The Manx Bus Industry is quite different from the british.

In terms of mainland Bus Operatiors, the VDLSB200 Wright Commander was popular in the Netherlands. That's a fairly lightweight product, and it's surprising that it's successor, the Wright Eclipse Pulsar, never made it to Arriva Netherlands.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Bus Vannin have had plenty of Citaros over the past decade too, 30 O530s, 14 O295s and 8 O295Ks. They have started replacing the earlier O530s fairly recently in order to get a decent resale value, but I expect Bus Vannin will probably acquire more O295s in the future.

EDIT: I forgot that Rotala are also a fairly large operator of the Citaro as well. I'm not sure exactly how many, though.

Rotala have 24 but they were all acquired from YourBus, the now defunct operator owned by Scott Dunn, brother of Simon the Rotala boss. Rotala haven't bought any new; they have moved from buying B7RLEs to Streetlites of various configurations. They only bought the Citaros as they came at a decent price and also filled a gap in their fleet following the takeover of Bolton depot.


The main difference between the EU and UK is the commercial environment. In Europe, operators will be subject to a tender specification where you have to provide vehicles with, for instance, double glazing and air conditioning etc. That means heavyweight vehicles have to be sourced, or are provided by the tendering authority. Therefore, the cost of fuel becomes almost irrelevant. You are almost bound to have vehicles returning 5mpg.

In the UK, the commercial model means that fuel and maintenance costs sit with the operator. So based on £1/litre for fuel (yes, it's a bit cheaper now the fuel price has reduced but for ease of maths), you are looking at £0.90 per mile for fuel with a heavyweight vs a Streetlite returning a cost of £0.57 per mile.

So that's why UK operators go for lightweight vehicles!

 

[TheManWho]

View attachment 78065

My attempt at making an Enviro200 MMC bendy bus lol, but in UK & Ireland version (RHD).
Hope you all like it!

have to say- that is something I'd love to see

 

[507021]

They're not in the uk though,

And? The Isle of Man is a part of the British Isles, and like the United Kingdom, the island requires the use of right hand drive vehicles and utilises buses which are the same specification to those used in the UK. This caveat meant Bus Vannin could not order a desired vehicle type when it originally planned to as the production line tooling was, at the time, only set up for left hand drive variants.

and are the Nationalised State Operator.

I used to drive for them before I moved back to the UK, so I'm aware of this fact. However, it's not really relevant to the point I was making.

the Wright Eclipse Pulsar

The what?

 

[507021]

Rotala have 24 but they were all acquired from YourBus, the now defunct operator owned by Scott Dunn, brother of Simon the Rotala boss. Rotala haven't bought any new; they have moved from buying B7RLEs to Streetlites of various configurations. They only bought the Citaros as they came at a decent price and also filled a gap in their fleet following the takeover of Bolton depot.

Thanks, and that's a fair point.

 

[TheManWho]

And? The Isle of Man is a part of the British Isles, and like the United Kingdom, the island requires the use of right hand drive vehicles and utilises buses which are the same specification to those used in the UK. This caveat meant Bus Vannin could not order a desired vehicle type when it originally planned to as the production line tooling was, at the time, only set up for left hand drive variants.



I used to drive for them before I moved back to the UK, so I'm aware of this fact. However, it's not really relevant to the point I was making.



The what?

The Wright Eclipse Pulsar (think it was called the Wright Pulsar) was the Wright body on the DAF SB200 single deck which replaced the Wright Commander body

 

[507021]

The Wright Eclipse Pulsar (think it was called the Wright Pulsar) was the Wright body on the DAF SB200 single deck which replaced the Wright Commander body

Yeah, we've got some Pulsars at the depot I'm based at.

Never heard of the "Eclipse Pulsar" though.

 

[cnjb8]

Could Brexit also be a possible reason why hardly anyone is recently ordering stuff like the Citaro?

Possibly, but they have reliability issues and are not suited to the UK market, who typically buy lightweights.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Possibly, but they have reliability issues and are not suited to the UK market, who typically buy lightweights.

Funnily enough Citaros are known to be highly reliable on the continent and some operators in the UK and Ireland think the same thing but others have the view that you do.

They are the most successful citybus of all time apparently - they were due to hit 60,000 built by the end of the year but now it doesn't look likely.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Funnily enough Citaros are known to be highly reliable on the continent and some operators in the UK and Ireland think the same thing but others have the view that you do.

They are the most successful citybus of all time apparently - they were due to hit 60,000 built by the end of the year but now it doesn't look likely.

And the fact they are the most citybus of all time is why they are very popular in the UK & Ireland in terms of heavyweight buses, when compared to the OmniCity, Enviro300 and Volvo Eclipse/VDL Pulsar.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Funnily enough Citaros are known to be highly reliable on the continent and some operators in the UK and Ireland think the same thing but others have the view that you do.

They are the most successful citybus of all time apparently - they were due to hit 60,000 built by the end of the year but now it doesn't look likely.

Indeed, Citaros are one of my favourite ever buses because they are amazing and very high quality product. I even believe that Citaros are more suited to interurban / rural services than city routes.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Yeah, we've got some Pulsars at the depot I'm based at.

Never heard of the "Eclipse Pulsar" though.

He meant a VDL SB200 Pulsar... a full heavyweight city / interurban bus made by Wrightbus and VDL between 2007 and 2013.

 

[507021]

He meant a VDL SB200 Pulsar... a full heavyweight city / interurban bus made by Wrightbus and VDL between 2007 and 2013.

I do know what a Pulsar is, I drive them for a living.

However, they aren't heavyweight saloons at all. They're midibuses.

 

[Arriva Fan]

And? The Isle of Man is a part of the British Isles, and like the United Kingdom, the island requires the use of right hand drive vehicles and utilises buses which are the same specification to those used in the UK. This caveat meant Bus Vannin could not order a desired vehicle type when it originally planned to as the production line tooling was, at the time, only set up for left hand drive variants.



I used to drive for them before I moved back to the UK, so I'm aware of this fact. However, it's not really relevant to the point I was making.



The what?

There was a debate over Citaro usage in the uk, and you brought Isle Of Man into it. The arguments against Citaro operation for the uk commercial bus operators, doesn't apply in Mann. Don't pretend it's LHD vs RHD issue suddenly, because the points being made were that Citaros are expensive to purchase and too heavy, meaning uk operators prefer lightweight.

These arguments can't be made against Citaros for the Manx bus industry. Bus Vannin are't commercial, they finance new vehicles through their Capital Budget. It doesn't matter how they performed financially, the Bus Replacement Programme will provide funds for new vehicles. The current manufacturers of choice being Mercedes and WrightBus. Bus Vannin prefer heavy weight vehicles, contrary to the general consensus of uk operator preference. Passenger comfort, vehicle reliability and driver satisfaction clearly outweigh the benefits of lightweight, fuel saving vehicles for Bus Vannin.

StreetLites have been withdrawn and replaced by the Citaro O295K on the Island.

I believe it is relevant to point out the way Bus Vannin operate is very different to the uk scene. They can afford to go for the heavyweight, slightly more fuel hungry Citaro. Which, btw, gets around 9MPG, not the 6 mentioned earlier.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Most of the Bus Vannin fleet appears to be Mercedes, not just the Citaros but also a large number of various types of Sprinter and it's no wonder when you consider that Mercedes, unlike other manufacturers, have a specialised Sales and Service presence there which will give them a huge advantage over other marques.

Wouldn't be worth their hassle in going down another road without the adequate support on the island and I doubt any of the other manufacturers would see any great value or financial sene to establishing a base there either because there just wouldn't be enough business to make it pay, especially when Mercedes are so strong in the market and have a long standing relationship with Bus Vannin.

Generally if a manufacturer gets in a good position on an island and builds scale it's very hard for anyone else to get a good slice of that pie and unlike Volvo who have come undone in Ireland thanks to Wright going bust which has allowed ADL in, the same is not going to happen to a company like Mercedes anytime soon with products like the Sprinter and the Citaro which are worldwide massive sellers.

 

[hst43102]

Putting the debate about whether Citaros are successful/popular/everywhere aside for a moment, I just want to say that, for a passenger, the ride quality of a Citaro is second to none. I've been on multiple Citaros in this country - London bendis, West Mids bendis, Uno Citaros and ABus Bristol buses, along with Citaros in Singapore, and they are absolutely divine to ride on. Smooth, flawless engine (no vibration!) and a flat floor. Maybe that's why they're so popular in Europe?

 

[507021]

There was a debate over Citaro usage in the uk, and you brought Isle Of Man into it. The arguments against Citaro operation for the uk commercial bus operators, doesn't apply in Mann. Don't pretend it's LHD vs RHD issue suddenly, because the points being made were that Citaros are expensive to purchase and too heavy, meaning uk operators prefer lightweight.

These arguments can't be made against Citaros for the Manx bus industry. Bus Vannin are't commercial, they finance new vehicles through their Capital Budget. It doesn't matter how they performed financially, the Bus Replacement Programme will provide funds for new vehicles. The current manufacturers of choice being Mercedes and WrightBus. Bus Vannin prefer heavy weight vehicles, contrary to the general consensus of uk operator preference. Passenger comfort, vehicle reliability and driver satisfaction clearly outweigh the benefits of lightweight, fuel saving vehicles for Bus Vannin.

StreetLites have been withdrawn and replaced by the Citaro O295K on the Island.

I believe it is relevant to point out the way Bus Vannin operate is very different to the uk scene. They can afford to go for the heavyweight, slightly more fuel hungry Citaro. Which, btw, gets around 9MPG, not the 6 mentioned earlier.

I brought Bus Vannin into the debate because they are are an operator within the British Isles who has purchased a large amount of heavyweight vehicles over the past ten years. You're the only person in this topic who has taken a ridiculous exception to it with an appalling know it all attitude.

I'm also fairly certain that all stagecarriage operators, whether private or municipal, finance their new stock out of a capital budget every financial year. Again, but as you clearly haven't bothered reading, I used to work for Bus Vannin several years ago so I already know who their preferred bus manufacturers are and what their current fleet is. For what it's worth though, I think the Citaro is a poor vehicle choice for the island as they're far too small for the busier routes. And also, a lot of the drivers I asked for their opinion of the Citaros don't like them.

And by the way, Citaros absolutely do not get nine miles to the gallon. If they did, I'm sure a lot more operators would be buying them.

 

[cnjb8]

Funnily enough Citaros are known to be highly reliable on the continent and some operators in the UK and Ireland think the same thing but others have the view that you do.

They are the most successful citybus of all time apparently - they were due to hit 60,000 built by the end of the year but now it doesn't look likely.

Yes. Kinchbus are replacing theirs on Skylink Derby, new in 2014 and 2017, they're also replacing their 2009 examples on Kinch 2. They've had shocking reliability issues and it caused big vehicle shortages at Kinch.

There was a debate over Citaro usage in the uk, and you brought Isle Of Man into it. The arguments against Citaro operation for the uk commercial bus operators, doesn't apply in Mann. Don't pretend it's LHD vs RHD issue suddenly, because the points being made were that Citaros are expensive to purchase and too heavy, meaning uk operators prefer lightweight.

These arguments can't be made against Citaros for the Manx bus industry. Bus Vannin are't commercial, they finance new vehicles through their Capital Budget. It doesn't matter how they performed financially, the Bus Replacement Programme will provide funds for new vehicles. The current manufacturers of choice being Mercedes and WrightBus. Bus Vannin prefer heavy weight vehicles, contrary to the general consensus of uk operator preference. Passenger comfort, vehicle reliability and driver satisfaction clearly outweigh the benefits of lightweight, fuel saving vehicles for Bus Vannin.

StreetLites have been withdrawn and replaced by the Citaro O295K on the Island.

I believe it is relevant to point out the way Bus Vannin operate is very different to the uk scene. They can afford to go for the heavyweight, slightly more fuel hungry Citaro. Which, btw, gets around 9MPG, not the 6 mentioned earlier.

That is strange considering the Kinch examples have severe reliability issues, yet Bus Vannin examples (and others like First Kernow) can make theirs work properly

 

[507021]

Bus Vannin examples

They're alright I suppose, but I don't see them lasting anywhere near as long as the East Lancs stock they replaced, the vast majority of which (at twenty years old, or not far off) is still providing reliable service to a number of UK based operators. Some of the routes on the Isle of Man are a lot more demanding than the stop-start urban routes the Citaro was designed for as well, meaning they use more fuel, whereas the Volvo B9TL is ideal.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Yes. Kinchbus are replacing theirs on Skyline Derby, new in 2014 and 2017, they're also replacing their 2009 examples on Kinch 2. They've had shocking reliability issues and it caused big vehicle shortages at Kinch.

That is strange considering the Kinch examples have severe reliability issues, yet Bus Vannin examples (and others like First Kernow) can make theirs work properly

So the question is why do Kinchbus have such issues with all their generations of Citaros, if that is what you are stating? it seems a very strange affair if a number of other operators do not have the same problem?

Have they worked with Mercedes on the problems or sent the vehicles to their nearest Omniplus Busport accredited dealer to be examined or are they doing everything in house?

 

[cnjb8]

So the question is why do Kinchbus have such issues with all their generations of Citaros, if that is what you are stating? it seems a very strange affair if a number of other operators do not have the same problem?

Have they worked with Mercedes on the problems or sent the vehicles to their nearest Omniplus Busport accredited dealer to be examined or are they doing everything in house?

Yes they do have issues with all their generations of Citaro. All I know is that they have reliability issues and before the current situation, were going to be replaced by ADLs. I'm sorry but I don't know if they are being sent to any sort of Mercedes Benz outlet.