Should UK manufacturers develop more products for Continental Europe?

[F Great Eastern]

The change between the Gemini 2 and Gemini 3 was dramatic, and not in a good way. So now Wrights also make cheap nasty buses that you'd only buy if you were a skinflint, and away from the UK operators are not skinflints. Even Bus Eireann won't buy Wright now.

Bus Eireann don't buy any city buses full stop, everything is subject to tenders held by the NTA now, although Bus Eireann did some of their own tenders in the past. Pretty much all the big city bus tenders since 2008 have been won by Volvo who have subcontracted the body side to Wright. They always dwarfed the other providers on the service and support aspect of the tender criteria and having excellent infrastructure all over the island meant tht they could use this pre-existing infrastructure to drive down prices too. There has been over 1,000 Volvo based Wright vehicles delivered to Go-Ahead Ireland, Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus in the last decade or so and even as recently as last month some were being delivered to these companies.

Other Irish contracts of note are a batch of 20 Citaros delivered to Bus Eireann in 2016, after Wright decided not to team up with Volvo, a proven combination that was the Bus Eireann vehicle of choice for single deckers for the previous 15 years, because they were trying to flog the Streetlite desperately. Then in 2018 Wright won the tender call for a couple of different sizes of Streetlites as part of the same tender which included Mercedes as subcontractor to use their dealer network throughout Ireland for delivery and support of the Daimler components.

Most people regarded the Volvo/Wright combination as a shoo-in for the recent hybird-electric tender which was won by ADL and all indications were that there would be a bid from Volvo based on this and it was expected that yet again, the Wrght/Volvo combination would be able to tick boxes for sales and service that others couldn't tick and ADL would not be able to match them on costs as they would need to establish such network which they'd presumably price into the bid. However Wright's collapse meant the bid was never put forward and it allowed ADL more or less a clean run. It's rumoured that Volvo attempted a last minute fudge based on MCV as a subcontractor but nobody knows if it's true or not.

We'll have to wait and see what the future brings but one thing is for sure, the Volvo domination of the Irish bus marketplace is over, but I think they will still be dominating the coach market for some time!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Just to briefly confirm, as I've already gone way off topic, Bus Vannin are going for StreetDecks because Wrightbus aren't (or weren't at the time) offering Volvo chassis options.

Wright probably knew the chances of them going to ADL were slim.

Also take into consideration that Isle of Man Transport, the parent agency of Bus Vannin, are actually an accredited official Daimler/Setra/Mercedes Omniplus Busport service and support provider.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think we should support UK manufacturers full stop and if that inculdes exporting to Europe then go for it.

 

[cnjb8]

Considering ADL are building their E400ER part hybrid electric bus to Ireland, doesn't that mean Volvo was out of the question immediately? Surely if the bid was won by a hybrid that switches to electric in certain places, and Volvo don't have a similar product, could that be why their bid wasn't accepted? Yes, Wright may have contributed to this but this is all speculation here.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Considering ADL are building their E400ER part hybrid electric bus to Ireland, doesn't that mean Volvo was out of the question immediately? Surely if the bid was won by a hybrid that switches to electric in certain places, and Volvo don't have a similar product, could that be why their bid wasn't accepted? Yes, Wright may have contributed to this but this is all speculation here.

Volvo was never out of the question and had a large advantage because of it's massive sales, service and support network over the country which no other chassis manufacturer could come close to, let alone match. Both Volvo and ADL were said to be preparing innovative solutions for the tender. When you will see the Enviro 400ER City that the NTA are getting you will see that it is not an off the shelf product configuration but one that has been built around the NTAs needs and for Ireland. The tender encouraged innovation and for operators to use their imagination when putting together a tender rather than just slinging into the race a product that already existed.

Volvo have won every double decker tender in Ireland since 1996, supplying over 2000 vehicles in that time, (ADL Bodies 1996-2008, East Lancs 2002-2004, Wrightbus 2008-2020) aside from a brief experiment by Dublin Bus with Tridents in 2003. They've also dominated the single decker market most of that time as well, aside from a couple of small batches of Citaros and a bunch of DARTS and ADL integral Enviros. The DARTS and the Enviros lasting a much shorter time in Bus Eireann's front line fleets in regular service than pretty much any similar vehicle, thanks to their poor reliability and inferior build quality and lack of ability for the manufacturer to be able to improve it too much.

Before the hybrid tender was outlined, the NTA arranged for three types of hybrid vehicles to be supplied. Wright supplied a hybrid Streetdeck, Alexander Dennis supplied an ADL Enviro 400 MMC derived hybrid and Volvo supplied a hybrid based on Wright bodywork based on the Gemini 3 with the stealth front. At that point Wright were still trying to figure out if they would make a bid on their own or would go with Volvo or they would hedge their bets, so to speak. The quandary for Wright was that going their own way would bring in more money, however the Volvo bid would probably have more technical merit and ability to build vehicles faster and offer better back-up support.

Volvo always intended to make a bid with Wright as the subcontractor, as they have done in the past as it is a relationship that has resulted in the delivery of approx over vehicles over the last 12 years. It was a winning formula that met with the approval of the operators and the tendering authorities alike and a bid was certainly prepared in this regard, but as we know, events then happened which meant that it didn't happen in the end.

There were only two tenderers for the contract. Wright wasn't the second one, they have admitted in the Northern Irish press they didn't have a tender in for the contract. That would only leave the rumoured Volvo fudge that involved MCV, however as well as being scored on price, the tender was scored on technical merit, service and support and also how quickly the vehicles could be delivered and I would say the late fudge would have pushed the price up and slowed down the delivery schedule and may have forced Volvo to revise what it could promise in relation to the vehicle as well, which would have allowed ADL in through the back door.

ADL are here to stay in Ireland now and Volvo will no longer have the luxury of dominating the market like they have for the past 20 years. They have realised that recently and are already determined not to rely on one third party body builder going forward, having been badly burnt by Wright's administration and the fact that their partner for so long on many tenders tried to convert most of their Volvo based customers to integral based customers which in the end has weakened the position of both Volvo and Wright in the marketplace and ADL, as you would expect them to, have took full advantage.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I think we should support UK manufacturers full stop and if that inculdes exporting to Europe then go for it.

The thing is that whilst I understand the argument that we should support UK manufacturers full stop and the reason that people argue we should only buy British, if every country did that for their manufacturers, we'd never export anything.

That's why I find the whole argument quite perverse when people talk about buying only domestically and the next breath talk about how exporting is so important.

 

[507021]

I think we should support UK manufacturers full stop and if that inculdes exporting to Europe then go for it.

Oh I agree, but unfortunately there's two problems with that.

1) Bus manufacturers in the United Kingdom don't really produce heavyweight single deckers anymore because the demand for them in their main market is very low, and they're what most European bus operators tend to buy.
2) Double deckers don't seem popular on the continent either.

 

[Mikey C]

East Lancs had a steady business bodying Volvo and Scania double deckers, but when Optare took over they decided to go down the integral market instead, with the result that they lost their London sales completely (until a few recent electric buses). AND MCV came in second Volvo bodywork supplier in the key London market.

Wright had a nice business bodying Volvos, VDLs and Scanias, but AGAIN by moving to integrals lost much of this business.

ADL on the other hand, despite their experience in bus chassis are now happy to partner with other chassis manufacturers such as Volvo and BYD, and as a result are far more successful

 

[cainebj]

Oh I agree, but unfortunately there's two problems with that.

1) Bus manufacturers in the United Kingdom don't really produce heavyweight single deckers anymore because the demand for them in their main market is very low, and they're what most European bus operators tend to buy.
2) Double deckers don't seem popular on the continent either.

The 4m height restriction on vehicles will be a likely contributing factor to the lack of double deck buses, it makes exporting current British double deck buses nigh on impossible. The low height Enviro 400MMC sits at 4.2m, and the shaved down ultra low height E500 for America is 4.1m.

 

[MotCO]

1) Bus manufacturers in the United Kingdom don't really produce heavyweight single deckers anymore because the demand for them in their main market is very low, and they're what most European bus operators tend to buy.

I'm struggling to think of any UK bodied heavyweight single deckers.

(PS I assume that there is no such thing as a heavy weight double decker?)

 

[507021]

I'm struggling to think of any UK bodied heavyweight single deckers.

(PS I assume that there is no such thing as a heavy weight double decker?)

There's none available at the moment, with the Wright Eclipse 3 being the most recent one. However, I think that body design is going to be used for the proposed hydrogen powered single decker (which I'm fairly sure will be available in right and left hand drive), so maybe that could be a seller in Europe.

Nope, no such thing as heavyweight deckers.

 

[507021]

The 4m height restriction on vehicles will be a likely contributing factor to the lack of double deck buses, it makes exporting current British double deck buses nigh on impossible. The low height Enviro 400MMC sits at 4.2m, and the shaved down ultra low height E500 for America is 4.1m.

This is it, from memory there's only Hong Kong and Singapore where UK built deckers are exported to in a decent volume.

 

[MotCO]

This is it, from memory there's only Hong Kong and Singapore where UK built deckers are exported to in a decent volume.

And also Berlin in the not-to-distant future, and Switzerland.

 

[507021]

And also Berlin in the not-to-distant future, and Switzerland.

Oh yes, I forgot about those.

 

[Mikey C]

This is it, from memory there's only Hong Kong and Singapore where UK built deckers are exported to in a decent volume.

Alexander Dennis Enviro500 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A surprising number of countries have taken the E500, it's sold to more different countries than its predecessors

 

[507021]

Alexander Dennis Enviro500 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A surprising number of countries have taken the E500, it's sold to more different countries than its predecessors

Very interesting indeed, thanks for sharing.

 

[Astradyne]

I'm struggling to think of any UK bodied heavyweight single deckers.

(PS I assume that there is no such thing as a heavy weight double decker?)

I believe the Optare Tempo is still in production, although been a long time since they sold one in the UK, a few examples have been sold in Australia and New Zealand where heavyweight still rules.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I believe the Metrocity is also heavyweight... maybe that could sell well in Europe.

After all the Solo SR has been quite successful in some european countries, especially the Netherlands, with companies such as Qbuzz having a fleet of them.

 

[F Great Eastern]

There's none available at the moment, with the Wright Eclipse 3 being the most recent one. However, I think that body design is going to be used for the proposed hydrogen powered single decker (which I'm fairly sure will be available in right and left hand drive), so maybe that could be a seller in Europe.

Nope, no such thing as heavyweight deckers.

The problem with the Eclipse 3 is that Wright were worried about it potentially taking away from Streetlite orders, since they made more profit on a Streetlite as it was an integral, so they made sure the Eclipse 3 body wasn't too cheap that it could take trade away from the Streetlite Max.

 

[cnjb8]

I believe the Metrocity is also heavyweight... maybe that could sell well in Europe.

After all the Solo SR has been quite successful in some european countries, especially the Netherlands, with companies such as Qbuzz having a fleet of them.

Im pretty sure the MetroCity is lightweight
EDIT:

MetroCity — Optare PLC

www.optare.com

This link, from Optare themselves demonstrates it is lightweight.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Im pretty sure the MetroCity is lightweight
EDIT:

MetroCity — Optare PLC

www.optare.com

This link, from Optare themselves demonstrates it is lightweight.

Then it won't sell in Continental Europe lol

 

[Arriva Fan]

I brought Bus Vannin into the debate because they are are an operator within the British Isles who has purchased a large amount of heavyweight vehicles over the past ten years. You're the only person in this topic who has taken a ridiculous exception to it with an appalling know it all attitude.

I'm also fairly certain that all stagecarriage operators, whether private or municipal, finance their new stock out of a capital budget every financial year. Again, but as you clearly haven't bothered reading, I used to work for Bus Vannin several years ago so I already know who their preferred bus manufacturers are and what their current fleet is. For what it's worth though, I think the Citaro is a poor vehicle choice for the island as they're far too small for the busier routes. And also, a lot of the drivers I asked for their opinion of the Citaros don't like them.

And by the way, Citaros absolutely do not get nine miles to the gallon. If they did, I'm sure a lot more operators would be buying them.

Appalling know it all attitude, ok sure. The tone of your original reply, starting with 'And' was confrontational. My point about Bus Vannin and their operating environment being incomparable to the uk still stands. Different financing, different priorities. It should come as no surprise that what dominated the Manx Bus Market is vastly different from across. Likewise for RoI, who seemingly also prefer Heavyweights.

The Citaro is an excellent choice of vehicle though, and I know a few Bus Vannin drivers too. Most enjoy driving them and I've never heard any negative comments from passengers.

Well, according to Bus Vannin they do https://www.gov.im/news/2013/oct/23/mercedes-minibuses-join-bus-fleet/

Yes. Kinchbus are replacing theirs on Skyline Derby, new in 2014 and 2017, they're also replacing their 2009 examples on Kinch 2. They've had shocking reliability issues and it caused big vehicle shortages at Kinch.

That is strange considering the Kinch examples have severe reliability issues, yet Bus Vannin examples (and others like First Kernow) can make theirs work properly

Extremely surprising, as Bus Vannin have had very little problems with theirs, so much so that they have been confident enough to reduce Fleet Size due to the excellent availability and reliability of the Citaro.

They're alright I suppose, but I don't see them lasting anywhere near as long as the East Lancs stock they replaced, the vast majority of which (at twenty years old, or not far off) is still providing reliable service to a number of UK based operators. Some of the routes on the Isle of Man are a lot more demanding than the stop-start urban routes the Citaro was designed for as well, meaning they use more fuel, whereas the Volvo B9TL is ideal.

It's hard to say if they would, however most ELC Stock was withdrawn around 11/12 Years, which is a Vehicles reasonably expected lifespan and what Bus Vannin were expecting from the 2011 Citaro Batch. Some examples were withdrawn at 9 years old, so of similar age to the first Citaro withdrawals. They had aged well, due to Bus Vannin excellent maintenance regime and re-trimming seats. I don't believe they are better wearing than Citaros though, and with the change of Fleet Policy (Early withdrawals to cut maintenance costs & increase re-sale value) make it difficult to compare. I don't see any Citaros lasting long enough to get a re-trim to be honest, but not because of any flaw with the Vehicle. Purely due to current Bus Vannin Fleet Replacement Policy.

Feel free to state your source for this?
My post was based on this article.

Promise kept: demonstrably lower fuel consumption with Euro VI-certified Mercedes-Benz Citaro and Setra ComfortClass | marsMediaSite

Promise kept: demonstrably lower fuel consumption with Euro VI-certified Mercedes-Benz Citaro and Setra ComfortClass

media.daimler.com

38.7l per 100km works out as 6mpg, so I suggest that you are mistaken?

Anyway, as far as UK psv manufacturers developing vehicles for continental Europe goes, ADL won't push into that market unless an operator out there either orders vehicles or requests development of something that they're prepared to buy in sufficient quantity.

My source comes directly from Isle Of Man Transport: https://www.gov.im/news/2013/oct/23/mercedes-minibuses-join-bus-fleet/

It would seem very strange if an operator like Wellglade (Trent, Kinch etc) hadn't tried everything possible to sort out their fleet of Citaros. To now replace them with E20D MMCs suggests that they have finally given up.

Extremely strange, I'd certainly consider replacing Mercedes-Benz Citaros with ADL Enviro 200MMCs a significant downgrade. But it goes back to what a UK operator (commercial) expects.

The StreetLites really weren't great at all, I agree, and they were absolutely dreadful to drive. Whilst I'll also agree that the Citaro is a very decent product overall in the right application, on the Isle of Man there are times (AM/PM peaks on the trunk routes, TT and MGP) where their capacity is woefully inadequate, and they didn't even have luggage racks fitted until 2015 either. From a driver's point of view, I think it's worth mentioning that on at least three occasions I had to ask for a Citaro to be swapped for another bus during my duty because it was running out of fuel.

As for the fleet overall, the DB250s and Tridents were far more popular. I don't think the drivers will like the StreetDecks that are on order this year either, but at least they'll have the correct amount of seats for the busier periods.

Even though Bus Vannin are Nationalised, they can't wilfully throw taxpayers money away carting empty Double Deckers around all day though. There are currently 24 Deckers in the Fleet, so most peak services that absolutely require a Decker could get one. Obviously the complexities of allocation doesn't always result in that. The StreetLites were a good option for the lesser used rural services, and did what was asked of them. I like a StreetLite tbh, and found them comfortable on the Routes they were on. Luggage racks were, however, fitted to the 2009 Volvo B9TL Wright Gemini IIs for the Ronaldsway Services. As they are Bus Vannins premium, flagship services these are the vehicles which would have been on the 1/2/11/12 mainly.

The ELC Myllennium Deckers were popular, but they cannot last forever. I think the StreetDecks will be excellent, and I can't wait to see them. Drivers I know liked the StreetDeck Demos, and the Daimler Mockup Wright sent over was well received.

Just to briefly confirm, as I've already gone way off topic, Bus Vannin are going for StreetDecks because Wrightbus aren't (or weren't at the time) offering Volvo chassis options.

It's not that the B5TL wasn't an option, it's that Bus Vannin weren't entirely happy with it, compared the the B9TL. Wrightbus sent over a StreetDeck Daimler Demo, which looks like it'll tick all the boxes. I'm really looking forward to seeing them, and I'm personally glad the backup option under consideration when Wright were on the brink (ADL Enviro 400MMC Scania) isn't coming.

I believe the Wright Deckers are the best on the market.

 

[F Great Eastern]

As stated earlier, the Bus Vannin depot is an Official Mercedes/Daimler maintenance/service hub, so it's no surprise the maintenance is of a high standard. It's very rare for a bus operator to have an official manufacturer service and support location co-located.

Search for Isle of Man here:

Online ServiceDirectory - OMNIplus United Kingdom

Find the nearest service point or plan your next trip with the OMNIplus online service registry.

www.omniplus.com

That will give Mercedes/Daimler a huge advantage since most other manufacturers probably have to ship stuff over.

 

[Arriva Fan]

As stated earlier, the Bus Vannin depot is an Official Mercedes/Daimler maintenance/service hub, so it's no surprise the maintenance is of a high standard. It's very rare for a bus operator to have an official manufacturer service and support location co-located.

Search for Isle of Man here:

Online ServiceDirectory - OMNIplus United Kingdom

Find the nearest service point or plan your next trip with the OMNIplus online service registry.

www.omniplus.com

That will give Mercedes/Daimler a huge advantage since most other manufacturers probably have to ship stuff over.

Yes this is true, similar to the previous Volvo/Wright dominance on the other adjacent Island.

However, this Infrastructure was all set up AFTER Bus Vannin began purchasing Mercedes-Benz Products. The preference towards Mercedes wasn't because of an existing Support Structure on the Island.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Yes this is true, similar to the previous Volvo/Wright dominance on the other adjacent Island.

However, this Infrastructure was all set up AFTER Bus Vannin began purchasing Mercedes-Benz Products. The preference towards Mercedes wasn't because of an existing Support Structure on the Island.

Sure, but it will certainly give Mercedes an advantage going forward because having that expert support and back-up on site on the island is a big tick in the Mercedes box when it comes to sales and support and it will also reduce costs.

 

[GusB]

I have deleted the most recept posts which were completely off-topic for this thread. There are more, but it's going to take time to go back through the thread.

This discussion is about UK manufacturers exporting to Continental Europe. Anything else is off-topic and will be removed.