Should Victoria-Piccadilly Metrolink be enhanced?

[pemma]

I think trams every 12 minutes from Piccadilly to Victoria is too infrequent to not be running to a public timetable, when people use the link to transfer between timed heavy rail departures. Should this be enhanced to at least every 6 minutes like most of the Metrolink network and are there any plans to do that?

I also think the Route: Metrolink rail tickets allowing a Piccadilly-Victoria transfer shouldn't be restricted to journeys fully within Greater Manchester.

I realise about Ordsall Chord but that's set to offer a 15 minute frequency taking around 10 minutes. That may be useful for journeys like Macclesfield-Rochdale which will require 1 change post-Ordsall Chord but not for journeys like Buxton to Blackburn that'll likely still mean 2 changes however you do it.

 

[radamfi]

I have to admit, I've thought about this for years. Before Metrolink, the number 4 bus used to run very frequently between the two stations so it was a disappointment when Metrolink replaced it at a much lower frequency.

It is also surprising, when looking at things from a pre-Metrolink era, that out of the three routes crossing the city centre, Victoria-Piccadilly is the least frequent, compared to Victoria-Deansgate Castlefield and Deansgate Castlefield-Piccadilly.

Of course, the work around at the moment is to catch any tram from Victoria to Market Street and then walk to Piccadilly Gardens. But the frequency from Victoria to Market Street will get worse once some of the trams are diverted to the new line between Victoria and St Peter's Square.

This problem really only affects travellers coming from the line from Bradford and as you say, this will be remedied by the Ordsall Curve. Buxton to Blackburn can be done by changing at Salford Crescent. Ashton will of course be served by its own tram line into Piccadilly.

 

[pemma]

Buxton to Blackburn can be done by changing at Salford Crescent.

Buxton-Eccles or Patricroft might have been a better example to chose though as that can't easily be done by heavy rail only and no walking between stations.

 

[radamfi]

Increasing the Metrolink frequency wouldn't help though as that would still require two changes. Perhaps changing at Stockport and Salford Crescent would be easy enough as both changes would be cross or same platform.

 

[pemma]

Increasing the Metrolink frequency wouldn't help though as that would still require two changes. Perhaps changing at Stockport and Salford Crescent would be easy enough as both changes would be cross or same platform.

Sorry realised the mistake and changed my post.

 

[radamfi]

Eccles and Patricroft could in theory be served from Piccadilly and maybe they would be once the Ordsall Curve is in operation. The fact that this discussion is resorting to serving stations which frankly the authorities find an embarrassment shows that the Victoria to Piccadilly transfer is nowhere near as important as it used to be. Although I say this as someone who regularly travels from London to Rochdale so clearly find the 12 minute frequency not ideal!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Indeed, I have always thought it rather strange that Metrolink is one of, if not the, primary mode of public transport across Manchester, yet appears to somewhat neglect the market between the two main railway stations. I suppose it doesn't help that a lot of the network is west of Piccadilly, but I would have thought that it would help massively is Oldham / Shaw-St Werburghs Rd services ran via (or were split into two services terminating at) Piccadilly.

 

[tbtc]

Presumably this will change when the line towards Eastlands/ Ashton etc opens?

 

[radamfi]

Presumably this will change when the line towards Eastlands/ Ashton etc opens?

Last thing I heard, the Bury to Piccadilly service will extend to Droylsden. So this will not involve extra journeys across the city centre.

 

[tbtc]

Last thing I heard, the Bury to Piccadilly service will extend to Droylsden. So this will not involve extra journeys across the city centre.

Ah, cheers for confirming - am surprised by that - since they want a Second City Crossing due to the number of services through the middle of Manchester, but the frequency on the "most important" one of the three links (Pic - Vic, Pic - Deansgate, Vic - Deansgate) is the least frequent?

 

[radamfi]

I would assume that the Oldham/Rochdale - East Didsbury/Airport service will go down the new line. That would give a 6 minute service down the new line and a 6 minute service between Market Street and Victoria, made up of Bury - Ashton and Bury - Altrincham. The other Droylsden/Ashton trams will probably extend to Eccles.

This service pattern would still mean trams only every 12 minutes between Victoria and Piccadilly.

 

[pemma]

Eccles and Patricroft could in theory be served from Piccadilly and maybe they would be once the Ordsall Curve is in operation.

But then other services could move to Victoria and create different difficulties.

Although I say this as someone who regularly travels from London to Rochdale so clearly find the 12 minute frequency not ideal!

With bringing up London and other people bringing up the second city crossing - another strange decision is officially MediaCity doesn't have a service from Piccadilly, except in the off-peak when Eccles services go via MediaCity. It's promoted as a Cornbrook shuttle with a temporary extension to Piccadilly until the turnback at Cornbrook is built. I'm not sure what benefit that is supposed to achieve given that MediaCity will attract long distance passengers who'll mainly arrive at Piccadilly. Maybe if it becomes a 3 minute shuttle to Cornbrook there's benefits but otherwise I can't see any significant ones.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Buxton to Blackburn can be done by changing at Salford Crescent.

Even better than this, there is a direct 0559 Northern Rail service from Buxton that passes through Blackburn en route to Clitheroe with a 0812 arrival there.

 

[snail]

It's promoted as a Cornbrook shuttle with a temporary extension to Piccadilly until the turnback at Cornbrook is built. I'm not sure what benefit that is supposed to achieve given that MediaCity will attract long distance passengers who'll mainly arrive at Piccadilly.

Many of them people who will be used to the idea of changing underground trains in London to get to their destination. If the wait is short enough it will be more of an irritation than a problem.

I rarely use the tram to get from Piccadilly to Victoria. It's too slow, usually quicker to walk if you take into account the time to buy a ticket and wait for the tram to arrive.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suppose it doesn't help that a lot of the network is west of Piccadilly, but I would have thought that it would help massively is Oldham / Shaw-St Werburghs Rd services ran via (or were split into two services terminating at) Piccadilly.

But that scenario you so describe negates the intended north-south cross-city transportation link. Once the sections on both these two lines are completed, this will form a Rochdale to Parrs Wood cross-city link.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would assume that the Oldham/Rochdale - East Didsbury/Airport service will go down the new line.

I did hear from somewhere that I cannot now recall over a year ago, that there will be a Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport Metrolink service that will be a dedicated "stand-alone" service and unconnected to other routes.

If you have any updated information on this route which will give the latest projections for this route, could you be so kind as to put this information on the thread.

 

[jonbyrne]

Here are the current airport route plans

 

[radamfi]

I don't think service patterns have been finalised for when the Airport line opens. However, I don't think it matters greatly whether the tram comes from Oldham or Piccadilly. There will be no shortage of trams to Cornbrook where connections can be made across the network.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Here are the current airport route plans

That link is known to us, as it is just the construction route that which will see the onwards route from the bifurcation point just after St Werburghs Road to the Manchester Airport Interchange.

My query was to ascertain where the service may commence its journey from at the other terminal station.

 

[dggar]

With bringing up London and other people bringing up the second city crossing - another strange decision is officially MediaCity doesn't have a service from Piccadilly, except in the off-peak when Eccles services go via MediaCity. It's promoted as a Cornbrook shuttle with a temporary extension to Piccadilly until the turnback at Cornbrook is built. I'm not sure what benefit that is supposed to achieve given that MediaCity will attract long distance passengers who'll mainly arrive at Piccadilly. .

It surely makes more sense to have Eccles to Cornbrook and Media City to Piccadilly as the daytime pattern if capacity between Cornbrook and St Peter's Square is a problem.

 

[pemma]

It surely makes more sense to have Eccles to Cornbrook and Media City to Piccadilly as the daytime pattern if capacity between Cornbrook and St Peter's Square is a problem.

Yep especially considering Eccles-central Manchester is faster by both heavy rail and bus, so people boarding at Eccles are unlikely to go beyond Cornbrook in to central Manchester.

 

[snail]

Yep especially considering Eccles-central Manchester is faster by both heavy rail and bus, so people boarding at Eccles are unlikely to go beyond Cornbrook in to central Manchester.

The Eccles service is well used, particularly in the peaks. Very few get off at Cornbrook.

 

[pemma]

The Eccles service is well used, particularly in the peaks. Very few get off at Cornbrook.

But how many people boarding before between Eccles and Broadway travel beyond Cornbrook in the morning peak or the reverse in the evening peak compared to the number of people from central Manchester travelling to MediaCity, the Lowry and the Imperial War Museum?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It surely makes more sense to have Eccles to Cornbrook and Media City to Piccadilly as the daytime pattern if capacity between Cornbrook and St Peter's Square is a problem.

As a matter of general interest, has Eccles, in its western conurbation position, ever been considered in any forward plans for a cross-city route to either Rochdale or Ashton-under-Lyne, once the Metrolink system has seen completion of routes currently under construction?

 

[Greybeard33]

The MET1 timetable gives the nominal journey time between Piccadilly and Victoria as 8 minutes northbound and 9 minutes southbound. Add on up to 12 minutes waiting time and several minutes each end to get to and from the mainline station and the total transfer time can add up to half an hour for a one mile journey! Not great, even without the frequent Metrolink delays. Once the heavy rail service around the Ordsall Chord is operational I doubt that many transfer passengers will choose Metrolink.

It is perhaps a pity that the free Metroshuttle buses do not provide a direct link between the two stations. However, they do provide a 10 minute frequency between Victoria, Oxford Road and Deansgate, and between Piccadilly and Salford Central. This may be an option for some transfers.

It has been reported on the Skyscrapercity forums that there are plans to close the Metrolink Victoria stop for extended periods during the station reconstruction. Only a single bidirectional track will remain open so trams will run through non-stop to maximise capacity - even so service frequency will have to be reduced on the Bury line. A replacement bus shuttle to Piccadilly will be provided, which might actually be preferable to the trams, particularly since the Piccadilly stop is likely to be on Station Approach, adjacent to the main concourse.

 

[snail]

But how many people boarding before between Eccles and Broadway travel beyond Cornbrook in the morning peak or the reverse in the evening peak compared to the number of people from central Manchester travelling to MediaCity, the Lowry and the Imperial War Museum?

Like I said, very few leave or board Eccles trams at Cornbrook. They tend to be full and standing before and after MediaCity.

I don't know about patronage on the Piccadilly-MediaCity services in the peak but I can't see Metrolink being too happy at the idea of losing Eccles line passengers to bus services. I suspect part of the thinking behind the MediaCity-Cornbrook shuttle (apart from line capacity) is that people moving to MediaCity from outside could well choose to live in Sale/Altrincham rather than beyond the city centre.

 

[radamfi]

It is perhaps a pity that the free Metroshuttle buses do not provide a direct link between the two stations. However, they do provide a 10 minute frequency between Victoria, Oxford Road and Deansgate, and between Piccadilly and Salford Central. This may be an option for some transfers.

Centreline 4 (as it was then called) was deliberately rerouted away from Victoria after Metrolink opened.

Another option is to get Metroshuttle 1 from Piccadilly to Market Street and change for Metroshuttle 2 to Victoria, or just walk it to Victoria from there. The reverse direction requires a change on Deansgate.

 

[pemma]

I don't know about patronage on the Piccadilly-MediaCity services in the peak but I can't see Metrolink being too happy at the idea of losing Eccles line passengers to bus services. I suspect part of the thinking behind the MediaCity-Cornbrook shuttle (apart from line capacity) is that people moving to MediaCity from outside could well choose to live in Sale/Altrincham rather than beyond the city centre.

But then the regular commuters will know that Harbour City and Broadway are only a few minutes walk from MediaCity. Someone coming up from London doesn't necessarily realise it'll be just as quick to take an Eccles tram from Piccadilly and walk a bit further to MediaCity than to change to a tram calling at the MediaCity stop.

It's TfGM who decide on the service pattern and fares for Metrolink. RATP Metrolink just operate what TfGM tell them to which is why Stagecoach gave up on it because they knew they can't make changes to make more profits for them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Centreline 4 (as it was then called) was deliberately rerouted away from Victoria after Metrolink opened.

Wasn't there a bus service running between Victoria, Piccadilly and the City of Manchester Stadium while the commonwealth games were on? (What was supposed to be operated by the vintage San Francisco trams.)

 

[317666]

In all honesty, I find that walking between Piccadilly and Victoria doesn't take that long at all. Although I understand that option is less feasible for those with heavy luggage etc.

 

[radamfi]

It is also permitted to go from Piccadilly to Saford Crescent to Victoria.

 

[snail]

Someone coming up from London doesn't necessarily realise it'll be just as quick to take an Eccles tram from Piccadilly and walk a bit further to MediaCity than to change to a tram calling at the MediaCity stop.

So you pull a service that serves hundreds of local commuters - and has done since 2001 - for the sake of few suits from London? People that will be used to the idea of changing trains to get to their destination.