Should We Leave the EU?

[yorksrob]

Yeah, damn those countries with those vetos. We should get rid of ours as an example.

Well, that's the thing about vetoes. It's impossible to get anything done with them, impossible in a group of countries as diverse as the EU to have any legitimacy without them.

The only way to square that circle is to have a very loose 'Europe a la carte'.

Unfortunately, that's precisely the thing that the core countries won't countenance.

 

[ExRes]

No need for any further discussion on this subject, according to the BBC this morning Brexit could have a big effect on football, as that particular 'sport' seems to be the major driver of life, then it's game over as they say

 

[miami]

Well, that's the thing about vetoes. It's impossible to get anything done with them, impossible in a group of countries as diverse as the EU to have any legitimacy without them.

The only way to square that circle is to have a very loose 'Europe a la carte'.

Unfortunately, that's precisely the thing that the core countries won't countenance.

It's impossible to get anything done with vetoes? So you are saying that the leave campaign's lists of all the bad things the EU does is a load of rubbish, as the EU doesn't get anything done?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Even by the legendary standards of European waste this is one of the very worst, what a diabolical and disgusting waste of money and only because of the massive French ego.
Nearly a billion quid wasted over a 7 year European budget cycle.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

Why does this make you so incredibly angry? I could write a rather extensive list of Westminster waste, but I don't see you attempting to secede Staffordshire from the UK.

It's almost like it's any excuse, and you're looking for the justification...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nearly a billion quid wasted over a 7 year European budget cycle.

That's only 1/16th of what Iain Duncan Smith has wasted on Universal Credit.

These Europeans just don't do incompetence the way we do in Blighty.

 

[yorksrob]

It's impossible to get anything done with vetoes? So you are saying that the leave campaign's lists of all the bad things the EU does is a load of rubbish, as the EU doesn't get anything done?

I was more using the argument of those who prefer qualified majority voting and greater conformity as opposed to national vetoes, against themselves.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I was more using the argument of those who prefer qualified majority voting and greater conformity as opposed to national vetoes, against themselves.

But it isn't impossible to get anything done with them.

 

[Jonny]

No need for any further discussion on this subject, according to the BBC this morning Brexit could have a big effect on football, as that particular 'sport' seems to be the major driver of life, then it's game over as they say

However, Brexit may be favourable to home-grown talent

 

[yorksrob]

But it isn't impossible to get anything done with them.

'Impossible' was maybe an exaggeration. However, the argument for QMV (and consequently more conformity) is that national vetoes slow things down and block them.

 

[TheKnightWho]

'Impossible' was maybe an exaggeration. However, the argument for QMV (and consequently more conformity) is that national vetoes slow things down and block them.

It's about striking a balance between the two, and knowing where each is appropriate. Presenting them as a dichotomy, and saying the extremes of both are impossible, isn't very helpful.

 

[Jonny]

That's only 1/16th of what Iain Duncan Smith has wasted on Universal Credit.

These Europeans just don't do incompetence the way we do in Blighty.

The Europeans aren't as ambitious as us Brits! The whole point of Universal Credit is to replace the 100% clawback that applies to Jobseeker's Allowance (AKA "The Dole") with a lower rate of clawback.

 

[yorksrob]

It's about striking a balance between the two, and knowing where each is appropriate. Presenting them as a dichotomy, and saying the extremes of both are impossible, isn't very helpful.

My point is that it is possible to have a Union which satisfies the needs of it's member states which are as diverse as Europe, but only with a weak centre and a high degree of autonomy. This, unfortunately is the exact opposite of what the core members advocate with "ever closer union".

It should be said that the Tories talk the talk on autonomy, however in their way, they are just as centralising as the core members, except that their " ever closer union" is more of a neo-liberal market union.

 

[Antman]

No need for any further discussion on this subject, according to the BBC this morning Brexit could have a big effect on football, as that particular 'sport' seems to be the major driver of life, then it's game over as they say

More scaremongering surely?

 

[Groningen]

As you might not know we have also a referendum next week about a tradetreaty with Ukraine and the EU. But now it turns out that the people that organized that thing want to use the vote for us (the Netherlands) to leave the EU.

 

[fowler9]

At the end of the day everyone knows that if we leave the EU our magnificent leaders only want want is best for us. Anything bad that has happened has been because of the EU. Is there even a discussion to be had here?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However, Brexit may be favourable to home-grown talent

Many a true word is spoken in jest...

 

[Groningen]

About the referendum at April 6, 2016 in the Netherlands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Ukraine–European_Union_Association_Agreement_referendum,_2016

 

[WatcherZero]

TUSC has bankrolled by the RMT made a surprise bid to the electoral commission to be the only official OUT vote campaign on the argument that only socialists can represent the people not business. Its also threatened to sue the Electoral Commission if Vote Leave or Grassroots Out are chosen as the official campaign.

Bit of a U-turn as only a day earlier they had published an open letter calling for no group to be chosen as an official out group and running a petition calling for political parties to be kept out of the debate and not receive the £600k government funding they themselves have now applied for.

 

[ExRes]

TUSC has bankrolled by the RMT made a surprise bid to the electoral commission to be the only official OUT vote campaign on the argument that only socialists can represent the people not business. Its also threatened to sue the Electoral Commission if Vote Leave or Grassroots Out are chosen as the official campaign.

Bit of a U-turn as only a day earlier they had published an open letter calling for no group to be chosen as an official out group and running a petition calling for political parties to be kept out of the debate and not receive the £600k government funding they themselves have now applied for.

Is this a double bluff?, why on earth would any sane person vote alongside TUSC?

I can only assume that a TUSC OUT campaign is being funded by the IN campaign ensuring that we all vote IN for that one reason only

 

[TheKnightWho]

Is this a double bluff?, why on earth would any sane person vote alongside TUSC?

I can only assume that a TUSC OUT campaign is being funded by the IN campaign ensuring that we all vote IN for that one reason only

Or perhaps you should accept that you share an opinion with TUSC rather than coming up with elaborate conspiracies...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

About the referendum at April 6, 2016 in the Netherlands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Ukraine–European_Union_Association_Agreement_referendum,_2016

Why is opinion generally against, out of interest?

 

[Domh245]

Had an interesting letter come today entitled: "The UK and the European Union: THE FACTS". Perhaps it ought to have been called "The UK and the EU: SOME CAREFULLY CHOSEN FACTS"

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Had an interesting letter come today entitled: "The UK and the European Union: THE FACTS". Perhaps it ought to have been called "The UK and the EU: SOME CAREFULLY CHOSEN FACTS"

It's not even 'carefully chosen facts' - at least one of the 'facts' on that sheet appears to be an outright lie: The claim that the EU costs us £350M/week. This figure is oft-repeated, but is actually the amount that the UK would pay per week if it didn't have a rebate, and before you factor in the amount that the EU spends in the UK. As far as I can work out, the actual net 'what we pay' (= what we actually pay to the EU minus what the EU actually pays to us) appears to be in the region of £160M/week (see eg. fullfact).

Of course the somewhat plausible, although hard to prove, claim of the 'in' campaign is that economic benefits from being in the EU far exceed that £160M/week, which would mean, if true, that on balance, being in the EU gives a net financial benefit to the UK, not a net cost.

 

[ExRes]

Or perhaps you should accept that you share an opinion with TUSC rather than coming up with elaborate conspiracies...

Do I?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Do I?

You've made your opinion on EU membership well-known before.

 

[Domh245]

It's not even 'carefully chosen facts' - at least one of the 'facts' on that sheet appears to be an outright lie: The claim that the EU costs us £350M/week. This figure is oft-repeated, but is actually the amount that the UK would pay per week if it didn't have a rebate, and before you factor in the amount that the EU spends in the UK. As far as I can work out, the actual net 'what we pay' (= what we actually pay to the EU minus what the EU actually pays to us) appears to be in the region of £160M/week (see eg. fullfact).

Of course the somewhat plausible, although hard to prove, claim of the 'in' campaign is that economic benefits from being in the EU far exceed that £160M/week, which would mean, if true, that on balance, being in the EU gives a net financial benefit to the UK, not a net cost.

Interesting. I must admit that it is odd that nowhere on the leaflet is there an indication of who the sender is, although having done a bit of sniffing into a address included on the leaflet, I've determined that it came from "Vote Leave", and also that it is (as you point out) liberal with the truth.

 

[zuriblue]

Interesting. I must admit that it is odd that nowhere on the leaflet is there an indication of who the sender is, although having done a bit of sniffing into a address included on the leaflet, I've determined that it came from "Vote Leave", and also that it is (as you point out) liberal with the truth.

If there's no indication on the leaflet who sent it then it's illegal. An election communication must have an imprint showing who the sender is.

It's not a surprise as certainly in the last election the Kippers got into trouble in a couple of places for sending out misleading leaflets tricked out to look as though they came from one of the other parties.

 

[Groningen]

So your Nigel Farage came to the Netherlands to say to us that we should vote against the tradetreaty with Ukraine tomorrow. So in June we (the Dutch) in return will come to your country to say to you to leave the EU as every time you try to take the people on the mainland hostage if it does not go your way!

 

[TheKnightWho]

So your Nigel Farage came to the Netherlands to say to us that we should vote against the tradetreaty with Ukraine tomorrow. So in June we (the Dutch) in return will come to your country to say to you to leave the EU as every time you try to take the people on the mainland hostage if it does not go your way!

This vote against the trade deal with Ukraine seems like utter madness - it comes from blaming Russian aggression in Ukraine on the EU instead of... Russia!

 

[pemma]

Had an interesting letter come today entitled: "The UK and the European Union: THE FACTS". Perhaps it ought to have been called "The UK and the EU: SOME CAREFULLY CHOSEN FACTS"

Perhaps it have a cover page saying "This is a political communication from the Vote Leave campaign."

Surprisingly most of Labour's party political election broadcast yesterday was based on facts from independent bodies about the current government. It probably contained less political basis than a typical Telegraph article because as things stand the Conservatives aren't currently doing well - the average working person isn't better off (despite their election campaign being based around that) and they're missing their targets. Yet we had to be warned that it was a political broadcast both at the start and end.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Had an interesting letter come today entitled: "The UK and the European Union: THE FACTS". Perhaps it ought to have been called "The UK and the EU: SOME CAREFULLY CHOSEN FACTS"

I have now received the same leaflet. Since your location says 'Nottingham' and I live in London, I'm guessing this leaflet delivery is reasonably national and therefore the group behind it has considerable resources.

I'm pretty disgusted by it because it is so clearly designed to mislead people into thinking it's an impartial/educational leaflet when on a more careful read it becomes apparent that it's actually part of an 'out' campaign. The 'facts' themselves are not entirely correct (as I noted earlier, one of them - the claim that the EU costs us £350M a week is simply not true) and are clearly carefully selected to promote the 'out' argument, but nowhere is this indicated. Even when the facts presented are literally true, accompanying context that would indicate the true picture is omitted (Example: 'You don't have to be a member of the EU to trade with it' - strictly true, but doesn't mention that you'd still have to negotiate agreements/conform to much of EU law/etc.) And of course, as Domh245 noted, there is no explicit indication of who is behind the leaflet.

Many out campaigners like to label the 'in' campaign as 'Project Fear' but it seems to me that the various out campaigns can themselves be very accurately described as 'Project Lie' or 'Project Mislead'