Should we let the French take over our railways?

[aylesbury]

Interesting video but the state of the infrastructure alongside the track is terrible most of the buildings look as though they are derelict.The stations all look as though no money had been spent on them since WW2 a very good advert not to to go back to BR I think .

 

[NSEFAN]

This was part of the problem of the old BR and the "engineering led" railway. There was and is - not point in being efficient if nobody wants the product. You just exist for your own sake. Competitors surged ahead and took BR's business even when they had massive disadvantages (eg National Express, Easyjet etc) because they were customer and market focussed, and all those marketing phrases so hated by unions actually translated into better customer service - customers were no longer merely passengers. In that video I posted note how few passengers are there at each station. Virtually none. THe railway was operating "efficiently" by its own terms but nobody wanted dirty, unfriendly, uninformed, unreliable, demotivated, uncomfortable travel when they had an alternative. When customers / passengers left the railway they seldom came back......until post privatisation. A renationalised railway needs to learn what privatisation got right and acknowledge it instead of denying it.

I agree that having a positive image is overall a good thing. BR had already figured this out with sectorisation, but again it was too late by then as we'd already had decades of neglect and the public was overall dead-against BR as it was. East Coast demonstrated that a state-owned company isn't beyond providing good customer service.

 

[Redonian]

I don't know whether this has been previously mentioned, but frequencies on SNCF are pretty poor and in rural areas, they do a lot of bustitution, which is, for a tourist, most disappointing (not only for rail enthusiasts either).

I saw evidence of gross overmanning on the line from Bordeaux through the Dordogne, as well. It seems one goes from one extreme to another from nationalisation to private.

Frequencies on SNCF can be woeful. Take Rennes to Nantes. Two big cities not far apart but I can find only six direct trains a day - one more on Friday. Lorient - Nantes is the same with a gap in the morning with no train at all of 4 hours.

 

[ac6000cw]

I occasionally get those yearnings for the "Golden Age" of BR but as an antidote I watch this rather illuminating cabride from Sheffield Midland to Cleethorpes which somebody put on Youtube here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK60Ue8afog
If anyone can bear to watch the whole thing it is quite sad and sobering to remember just what an awful product BR had become for the average passenger. I exclude the train crew from criticism because you can hear in their conversations that they care desperately for the railway and its run down state, and their demotivation is symptomatic of the state of the railway at that time. The railways needed tens of billions which the Treasury did not have so it was either decimate the railway a la Serpell's OPtion A, or to privatise and get the funding from banks. There is a good argument to be had over the privatisation model but what I can't stand is hearing know nothing fools like the Greens talk about renationalisation while knowing b*****r all about the the detail and not even bothering to educate themselves to understand it.
(Paradoxically the p-way actually looks less cluttered and better maintained than it does today!!)

Pretty much sums it up - I agree.

Plenty of good people at all levels of BR (which was demonstrated quite well following Sectorisation, when in many cases a new generation of BR-trained managers were given their opportunity to lead - Chris Green is a good example). But virtually impossible to unlock enough investment funds from the Treasury, so it had long been in a downward spiral of 'managed decline' on many parts of the network. Privatisation unlocked the funds, which is why I've always supported it.

In recent years, the railways have enjoyed almost unprecendented levels of infrastructure investment (almost to the point that there aren't enough engineering resources to implement it) - just enjoy it while it lasts, don't rock the boat (the grass always looks greener on the other side )

 

[Minstral25]

Which bit of UK Railways is operated by the French. AFAIK the French have investments in 45% of Trans-Pennine through Keolis (which is actually 30% Canadian) and in a minority stake in Go-Via? Go-Via is operated as part of Go-Ahead which is a Newcastle company last time I looked.

 

[yorksrob]

This was part of the problem of the old BR and the "engineering led" railway. There was and is - not point in being efficient if nobody wants the product. You just exist for your own sake. Competitors surged ahead and took BR's business even when they had massive disadvantages (eg National Express, Easyjet etc) because they were customer and market focussed, and all those marketing phrases so hated by unions actually translated into better customer service - customers were no longer merely passengers. In that video I posted note how few passengers are there at each station. Virtually none. THe railway was operating "efficiently" by its own terms but nobody wanted dirty, unfriendly, uninformed, unreliable, demotivated, uncomfortable travel when they had an alternative. When customers / passengers left the railway they seldom came back......until post privatisation. A renationalised railway needs to learn what privatisation got right and acknowledge it instead of denying it.

Actually, I'm not sure I recognise that picture of BR at all.

Where I was, the trains were old, but generally well looked after and the stations tidy and painted. Having been born into a typical car based family of the 1970's/80's, various railcards allowed us to increase our leisure use of the railway right into the 90's. Staff, possibly weren't as customer focused as today, but the idea that everyone was rude and unhelpful is plain nonsense. We got the odd awkward one, but judging by posts on here, so do people today.

I don't know what things were like in Regional land, but your recollections don't ring true for me in Kent and sussex.

As for France - not travelled by train there, but I think we need to look at the railway as a network rather than just concentrate on Inter-City routes (a mistake BR did make in the 60's and 70's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In recent years, the railways have enjoyed almost unprecendented levels of infrastructure investment (almost to the point that there aren't enough engineering resources to implement it) - just enjoy it while it lasts, don't rock the boat (the grass always looks greener on the other side )

I agree to a large extent with not rocking the boat, however, I don't think we should absolve Governments of blame for not investing in the nationalised railway as well as they should have done.

 

[hulabaloo]

One word: Connex

 

[TUC]

Why is it more of an issue for the OP whether the French rather than any country runs the railways?

 

[TheKnightWho]

This thread is really odd - why would a French company necessarily run the railway like they do in France? They'd be running it with British consultants, in Britain - who owns the thing is mostly irrelevant, really.

This obsession we have with who owns what and what countries they're from is really odd.

 

[daikilo]

This thread is really odd - why would a French company necessarily run the railway like they do in France? They'd be running it with British consultants, in Britain - who owns the thing is mostly irrelevant, really.

This obsession we have with who owns what and what countries they're from is really odd.

Excellent comment along with others such as Stagecoach in Germany. The fact is that it is all about access and making money. The TOC in the UK are run by those who see a business opportunity, although don't always succeed. TOCs don't exist in France apart from SNCF, however, the local service deliverables are often fixed by the regions (who often own the rolling stock). The problem the latter has is that they can only appoint the SNCF to run them, for now. I would not be at all surprised if bids were received from many sources if some of the Regions joined to create a franchise and put it out to a TOC bid, but we will never know until it happens, and maybe it will with the new larger regions.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Excellent comment along with others such as Stagecoach in Germany. The fact is that it is all about access and making money. The TOC in the UK are run by those who see a business opportunity, although don't always succeed. TOCs don't exist in France apart from SNCF, however, the local service deliverables are often fixed by the regions (who often own the rolling stock). The problem the latter has is that they can only appoint the SNCF to run them, for now. I would not be at all surprised if bids were received from many sources if some of the Regions joined to create a franchise and put it out to a TOC bid, but we will never know until it happens, and maybe it will with the new larger regions.

Thello (Transdev in France, Trenitalia in Italy) run Paris-Venice and Marseille-Nice-Genova-Milan.
Though these are small beer and are not exactly stable operations.
And DB Schenker and Europorte (Eurotunnel) run freight services in France.
So not entirely an SNCF or French state monopoly.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

One word: Connex

Who spent no money above the solebar on the SE stock - let the fleet get into a terrible internal state (agreed much of it was vandalism - 96% of windows had to be replaced due to etching) - and paid the price when they had to restitute the stock to "as handed over" condition by BR. Not a good advert in any way.

For my money - the DB runs a good infrastructure (Ok DB Netz) and the trains are generally in very good condition - though punctuality is not quite what it was ...partly due to increased traffic !

France has serious issues ticking away - not just on the deep rural lines....good luck to them.

 

[TDK]

With multiple operating companies encroaching on what was solid British Rail territory, is allowing European companies to run our railway the best solution? Or is a British Rail equivalent (as promised by the Green Party, Labour etc) a better idea?

They tried it with Connex and failed miserably, the only reason the French Railways are so highly regarded is because they have a lot more space and arrest any protestors that get in the way when large projects are being applied, the French Police have even been known to tazer and shoot anyone obstructing.

Nationalisation didn't work either with a poorly run service and no drive for improvements. The Current government and ones previously including Labour didn't do it so why pledge that they will if they get into power, it's a load of rubbish.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They tried it with Connex and failed miserably, the only reason the French Railways are so highly regarded is because they have a lot more space and arrest any protestors that get in the way when large projects are being applied, the French Police have even been known to tazer and shoot anyone obstructing.

Connex was certainly French but was not a mainline French railway operator.
It was part of Veolia, which is a conglomerate of water, energy, local transport and environmental operations.
I'm not sure that early experience means that all French involvement in UK rail is doomed.
Keolis (controlled by SNCF) continue to do well partnering with Go-Ahead and First.
We'll see if they win a franchise as the lead partner (they are bidding for TPE with Go-Ahead as a junior partner).
RATP (Paris metro operator) runs Manchester Metrolink too.

 

[Carlisle]

N

This was part of the problem of the old BR and the "engineering led" railway. There was and is - not point in being efficient if nobody wants the product. You just exist for your own sake. Competitors surged ahead and took BR's business even when they had massive disadvantages (eg National Express, Easyjet etc) because they were customer and market focussed, and all those marketing phrases so hated by unions actually translated into better customer service - customers were no longer merely passengers. In that video I posted note how few passengers are there at each station. Virtually none. THe railway was operating "efficiently" by its own terms but nobody wanted dirty, unfriendly, uninformed, unreliable, demotivated, uncomfortable travel when they had an alternative. When customers / passengers left the railway they seldom came back......until post privatisation. A renationalised railway needs to learn what privatisation got right and acknowledge it instead of denying it.

Your making too much of a sweeping generalisation , the electrified ECML and modernised ,Thames & Chiltern, Thameslink,South Eastern, Great Eastern etc were all successful and growing under BR, privatisation in most cases just carried on that success largely due to better funding and good natural growth that would most likely have occurred anyway

 

[DeeGee]

Regarding handing our network to the French - IIRC only two cities, Lyon and Lille have a 2tph+ service to Paris. Compare that to how many cities in the UK have a 2tph+ service to London.

I don't even remember it being 1tph from Chantilly-Gouvieux to Paris when I was living there. It certainly wasn't turn-up-and-go. Chantilly is to Paris what Epsom is to London.