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Should XC services north of Leeds be scrapped to increase capacity?

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YorksLad12

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We're going slightly off-topic, but:

So no direct Leeds-Birmingham trains? Removing any direct rail connection between the West Midlands and West Yorkshire?
Where's the greater need? More seats Leeds-Sheffield or direct connections Leeds-Birmingham/WM?

I’m banging my head against a wall wondering why so many people want to cut XC trains either northbound out of Leeds or now even to go to Leeds full stop. The markets it serves on the Leeds service is extensive in either direction. The path is there so why can people not just leave it alone. I’ve said it so many times but the problem heading east of Leeds is that there are too many TPE’s, not the single XC service, but that’s the one everyone wants to cut out.
Again, where's the greater need? Pulling out one TPE and the XC to give a better, more robust inter-regional service works for me (and gets you 2tph Wakefield-York, and sends both York-Sheffield services via the quicker route). In the brave new world of GBR all bets are off anyway.

I've nothing against XC by the way, although I do somethings think they're a solution in search of a problem and could be broken up without too much effort.
 
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quantinghome

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Where's the greater need? More seats Leeds-Sheffield or direct connections Leeds-Birmingham/WM?
Both are needed, obviously. But currently Leeds-Sheffield heavily outstrips Leeds-Birmingham in terms of seats per hour. And Leeds-Birmingham is incredibly poorly served in comparison to other rail connections between our largest conurbations. So if you were to put a gun to my head and ask me to choose, I would choose the latter. Not that you have to chooose, because if you improve Leeds-Birmingham you will also improve Leeds-Sheffield. Anywa, getting very o/t so I'll shut up!
 
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YorksLad12

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Both are needed, obviously. But currently Leeds-Sheffield heavily outstrips Leeds-Birmingham in terms of seats per hour. And Leeds-Birmingham is incredibly poorly served in comparison to other rail connections between our largest conurbations. So if you were to put a gun to my head and ask me to choose, I would choose the latter. Not that you have to chooose, because if you improve Leeds-Birmingham you will also improve Leeds-Sheffield. Anywa, getting very o/t so I'll shut up!

Its not either / or...
I refer my Hon Friends to page 49 of the report. It shouldn't be either/or but something will have to give at some point.

And yes, we are (and I will too)!
 

david1212

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Reading - Southampton / Bournemouth is still cut to one per two hours. The only other service is GW Reading - Basingstoke then change. Further in addition to the increased Reading - Southampton / Bournemouth journey time the GW service does not connect well with XC, not surprising as presumably the unused XC path is kept open.

Back several years ago the owner of the holiday accommodation I was staying at told me they lost previously regular customers when XC cut direct Manchester - Paignton trains. The passengers who were helped to board the train by family and met a Paignton by the accommodation owners either did not want or physically could not manage changing at Birmingham. A single train each way departing mid-morning would probably have retained the business. Messy but even run as two units with at Birmingham one splitting from a Manchester - South Coast service then joining a North-East - Paignton service so as to keep the otherwise regular pattern.

Hence XC should continue north beyond Leeds but at a reduced frequency to provide a regular service and adequate capacity where there is no or very limited duplication. How far further north is debatable. Every 2 hours to Newcastle but just one to Edinburgh and the one Aberdeen train?
 

daodao

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Should XC services north of Leeds be scrapped to increase capacity?

Yes. The diversion via Leeds lengthens the journey time from York and points north to Sheffield and points south by approximately 20 minutes. However, I would keep an hourly Newcastle-Birmingham service, with all these trains running via Doncaster. Passengers from Leeds to NE England and Edinburgh can use TPE services, which are now run by bimode trains.
 
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30907

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Reading - Southampton / Bournemouth is still cut to one per two hours. The only other service is GW Reading - Basingstoke then change. Further in addition to the increased Reading - Southampton / Bournemouth journey time the GW service does not connect well with XC, not surprising as presumably the unused XC path is kept open.

Back several years ago the owner of the holiday accommodation I was staying at told me they lost previously regular customers when XC cut direct Manchester - Paignton trains. The passengers who were helped to board the train by family and met a Paignton by the accommodation owners either did not want or physically could not manage changing at Birmingham.
As Manchester-Exeter/Paignton was reinstated to the timetable after a couple of years, and was in the planned 2019-20 timetable, and the Bournemouth path mentioned is still available, IMO this discussion should assume that the pre-Covid timetable will be reinstated.
Should XC services north of Leeds be scrapped to increase capacity?

Yes. The diversion via Leeds lengthens the journey time from York and points north to Sheffield and points south by approximately 20 minutes. However, I would keep an hourly Newcastle-Birmingham service, with all these trains running via Doncaster. Passengers from Leeds to NE England and Edinburgh can use TPE services, which are now run by bimode trains.
I think various threads over the years have suggested that the Leeds service needs to run through to York for platforming reasons.

Terminating there, but extending the existing Reading-Newcastle to Scotland, saves a couple of diagrams, but TBH XC requires rather more than that in the way of increasing capacity.

(OT but alternatively, as a different way of dealing with capacity North of York, I wonder if TPE Newcastle-Airport should be run via Stillington or the Durham Coast and be combined with the Middlesborough-Airport?)
 

HSTEd

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If HS2 reaches Manchester, that will short circuit many of these discussions, because relatively little expenditure at Manchester Picadilly could allow Birmingham traffic to reach Leeds more rapidly via Manchester than the conventional route. (Assuming HS2-2E hasn't happened yet obviously).
 

Purple Orange

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If HS2 reaches Manchester, that will short circuit many of these discussions, because relatively little expenditure at Manchester Picadilly could allow Birmingham traffic to reach Leeds more rapidly via Manchester than the conventional route. (Assuming HS2-2E hasn't happened yet obviously).

This. And I think the DfT will see it that way too. They might build a short stretch of the eastern branch to the East Midlands to enable relieving the MML in to St. Pancras, but routing the Birmingham-Leeds services via Manchester on electrified lines also kicks the electrification of Birmingham-Derby down the line too. It may eventually all be electrified, but it means it can be done at a slower pace, which suits the conservative mantra of doing as little as possible. That in turn means XC is chopped up.
 

Bald Rick

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If HS2 reaches Manchester, that will short circuit many of these discussions, because relatively little expenditure at Manchester Picadilly could allow Birmingham traffic to reach Leeds more rapidly via Manchester than the conventional route. (Assuming HS2-2E hasn't happened yet obviously).

But Birmingham - Leeds services are not really about Birmingham - Leeds. They are about all the intermediate flows, of which there are many.
 

waverley47

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Should XC try and improve capacity on the core. Yes. This much is obvious.

The problem then becomes how you improve that capacity. Which parts of the XC network are the core? What is a justifiable sacrifice to improve capacity? And why is Edinburgh the big problem?



It all comes down to what XC is, and what it should be.

At the moment, XC runs long distance trains, serving end to end intercity journeys. That's it's main market.

It just so happens that these journeys are very long, and they exist on routes where there aren't any semi fast trains to pick up more local stops. So, these intercity fast trains have to stop at a lot of the smaller stations like Chesterfield and Tamworth, when they really shouldn't.

In an ideal world, you'd have XC with big fast intercity trains, with a handful of stops. Kind of like what HS2 will do. Gone are the passengers travelling from Sheffield to Doncaster or York to Leeds, they've been shipped off on six car stopping trains every twenty minutes. They better serve the churn of passengers on those journeys and the voyagers don't get clogged up with commuters making a twenty minute trip.

But, and this is a big but, those stopping trains don't exist yet. There isn't the capacity before HS2 is built, so at the moment you have to deal with XC as it is. So, let's deal with XC as it is now.


LIST OF PRACTICAL REASONS THIS IS A TERRIBLE IDEA.

1. Extending journeys north from Leeds needs to continue for the practical reason that there isn't enough capacity for XC to take up two platforms for 35 minutes every hour. At the moment, the Newcastle-Reading goes via Doncaster as much for capacity reasons in Leeds as connectivity and speed reasons. There isn't capacity for terminating trains without binning something else, and that would devolve into a popularity contest of northern towns. Not a great move.

2. So if you can't terminate reasonably in Leeds, you have to extend to somewhere else.

3. Logically, it follows therefore that you have to terminate somewhere that's not Leeds, but close enough to Leeds that you're not consuming units by sending them way further north for no reason. York would be the logical solution, as you can get there without impacting on the ECML directly, and without conflict. But there a lot of TPE services from Leeds to York already.

So Hull or Scarborough? You need to send it somewhere close, but somewhere easy to extend to. Can't have it crossing the throat twice an hour to go back west to Bradford or Harrogate. So needs to be somewhere east.

You could go for extending it to Hull, but York is a far better service draw, with changing much easier from stations north. You could try Scarborough, but realistically that's a local line and not an intercity route.
It would be really dumb to try sending a voyager to Hull or Scarborough when sending it to York is both closer, and attracts more passengers. Hull and Scarborough need 6*185s twice an hour, not a five car voyager.

4. If you're sending it to terminate at York, congratulations. You've managed to get as far as the ECML strategic study that came out about five years ago. That envisaged a post-HS2 world where both 2tph of XC terminate in the bays at York. So how do we get to where we are now, and why is terminating the units in York still not a great idea pre HS2?

5. HS2 will make journeys that are currently about equal timing and frequency by east and west coast much quicker by one or the other. For example, Edinburgh gains a fast train via the WCML to Curzon Street, and suddenly you don't need to serve Edinburgh to Birmingham journeys via the ECML.

At the moment though, XC serves a lot (probably a majority of journeys not via London) of journeys from Scotland, the North East and Yorkshire to Birmingham and the south west.

If you cut these back to York, suddenly you force people into changing at York. Those journeys that were direct now require a change, so you lose passengers. Yes, on paper your XC services are now less busy and have more space, but you're just replacing long distance passengers with shorter hops, and your train may as well be a semi-fast. That's not a great use for voyagers.

6. In addition, as well as forcing people to change, you force people into other trains. That's not terrible for Edinburgh, but pretty terrible for Newcastle. The Avanti west coast service suddenly becomes the only Scotland to Birmingham service, and becomes exponentially busier. Leeds passengers are forced onto the 1tph TPE service, which looks ready to be binned anyway. Newcastle loses all of its Birmingham services, although still keeps 2tph to Leeds.

All those passengers that previously had direct journeys are now making the change at York, or flying. Not a great look, but also bad for operational reasons. Lots of churn at York means greater dwell times, and the LNER services get much busier with intermediate passengers rather than premium paying London passengers.

7. So by stopping everything at York, you've saved a grand total of max 8 units which are north of York at any given time. That's enough to double eight diagrams. Great, but you've lost more passenger fares than you've gained in shorter trips that are now possible.

8. The problem of oversaturation on the northern ECML is often overstated. Edinburgh, Newcastle and Glasgow combined make up an enormous passenger draw. Currently Edinburgh (and by extension Newcastle and Glasgow) enjoys 2tph to Birmingham, one via Newcastle and Leeds (XC) and one fast via the WCML. This is about right. There is 2tph to Leeds, one extending to Manchester/Liverpool and the other to the south west. That's about right.

While XC going beyond Leeds may make journeys from Leeds to Sheffield more expensive or more difficult, that's not really XC's problem to solve, it should fall with Northern. It does however benefit several cities which don't have a local service. Newcastle and Edinburgh don't have a local TOC to operate semi-fast journeys, they have TPE and XC.

9. This is the perennial problem in a nutshell. XC shouldn't be curtailed at Leeds, short of three enormous cities further north, for the benefit of commuters in Yorkshire and the West Midlands. XC should be an intercity operator, and it just so happens that after HS2, those journeys become properly intercity; fast and segregated. Then, and only then, is it worth pruning XC to maximise semi-fast journey capacity.


Disclaimer, i have lived in Edinburgh for a while, and although I don't use XC for anything, it still represents a service that could only be provided by them, and one that is very well used. By all means prune extensions to smaller cities and towns to focus on the core axis, but that core axis includes Southern Scotland and the North East, the same as it includes Exeter and Plymouth and Southampton. The axis isn't just Birmingham to Leeds, it serves a much bigger region.

Birmingham to Leeds is important, but it's not more or less important than Scotland to Bristol, or Newcastle to Reading. You can't let XC bin the latter and focus on the former without HS2 first.
 
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Purple Orange

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But Birmingham - Leeds services are not really about Birmingham - Leeds. They are about all the intermediate flows, of which there are many.

Correct. And therefore post HS2 the route may benefit from being a Birmingham-Leeds route, but with more stops. Therefore it wouldn't be an intercity route like it is today but perhaps a service more akin to the XC regional (former central trains) services.
 

tbtc

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I'll just copy/paste what I said on the "XC - RIbblehead" thread:

The only reasons for making cuts on the XC services at Leeds would be a combination of:

1. Since TPE are meant to be running two per hour Leeds to Newcastle (one of which extends to Edinburgh), you could extend the "via Donny" service to Edinburgh and cut the "via Leeds" service at Leeds, so there was a faster Birmingham/ Derby/ Sheffield - Edinburgh service, and you could use the three-ish Voyagers freed up to increase capacity south of Leeds - i.e. if the deal was that the service from Leeds to Birmingham etc was eight/ nine/ ten coaches instead then there'd be some compensation. The problem with this is that the services currently pass at Leeds, so you'd have to occupy a platform for most of the hour to work (and, if the idea is to use doubled up Voyagers then you certainly aren't going to accommodate them in the bays at Leeds - you'd be tying up one of the long ones instead, so there are clearly some problems. And if the idea is to dump the train in Neville Hill for a layover then you are still using up a path through the throat east of Leeds (and crossing the eastbound line too), so you're not freeing up any paths on that section - in fact, the need to come out

2. The time penalty mentioned above - around twenty minutes - so the two XC trains per hour on the York - Newcastle corridor run fairly close to each other - which seems like a bit of a waste when XC are struggling for capacity elsewhere

However, I think the best thing would be to find the resources to ensure all "via Leeds" trains are doubled up (it's certainly a lot better than a franchise with no spare capacity being asked to run some nostalgia-friendly "express" over Ribblehead!) - if we have busy services then the solution should generally be to extend/improve those services whenever possible rather than trying to use it as an excuse to run something completely different which will only be of tangible benefit to taking passengers off the existing service

Three trains per hour from Leeds to Newcastle seems a little OTT, whereas a single Voyager per hour from Leeds towards the Midlands seems insufficient, so if you could "save" the three units required to provide the Leeds - Newcastle service that XC already provide (i.e. putting the Scottish leg onto the "via Doncaster" service) to enhance the Leeds - Birmingham side of things - I appreciate it's not enough to double up every Leeds - Birmingham service (and that these run through to destinations beyond Birmingham), but I'd rather that XC's limited resources were used on the Leeds/ Manchester - Bristol/Reading "core" in examples where other TOCs are already providing a good enough service beyond these places

However, the complications of cutting the service at Leeds (given the way that the times really don't match up) means I can't see it happening any time soon - maybe the priority should be trying to increase the other services south of Leeds (e.g. if you extended the platforms at Meadowhall then you could extend the two London - Sheffield services per hour to replace the half hourly Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds services, which would take a few East Midlands - Leeds passengers off the XC service north of Derby. But, again, I can't see that happening!
 

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Should XC services north of Leeds be scrapped to increase capacity?

Yes. The diversion via Leeds lengthens the journey time from York and points north to Sheffield and points south by approximately 20 minutes. However, I would keep an hourly Newcastle-Birmingham service, with all these trains running via Doncaster. Passengers from Leeds to NE England and Edinburgh can use TPE services, which are now run by bimode trains.
Even though York - Doncaster is already extremely well served?
 

Bayum

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Doesn’t Doncaster to York only have one XC service? The same service that acts as the fast service for Sheffield, Derby and Birmingham to York and Newcastle?
The poster I quoted wanted to make all XC services go via Doncaster because it’s quicker.
 

xotGD

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Terminate the XC at Leeds. If that causes a problem with platform occupancy send them to Bradford. Would be good news for Bradford to get a connection to the Midlands.
 

HSTEd

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But Birmingham - Leeds services are not really about Birmingham - Leeds. They are about all the intermediate flows, of which there are many.

Yes, but with the traffic from "outside" Birmingham-Leeds axed, the rolling stock and timetabling problems of XC are significantly reduced.

You could put Turbostars on it.
 

peteb

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Having spent many years travelling on business Birmingham to Bristol or Birmingham to York, on XC, I would prefer the trains to continue north of Leeds as it saves a change. But agree that longer trains with fewer stops needed: its tiresome stopping at Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds before getting to York. Much better to have a slow XC service following an express and used as a longer distance stopper, with expresses limited to stops at Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, York, Newcastle, some continue to Edinburgh. I suspect advance tickets are to blame as the dearth of cheap XC + connections tickets means there is a point to point demand for a through XC train stopping everywhere: Darlington for example is served by many different operators with convenient change at York so probably doesnt generate sufficient traffic to warrant continued express XC, but rather a two hourly slow XC.
 

daodao

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Having spent many years travelling on business Birmingham to Bristol or Birmingham to York, on XC, I would prefer the trains to continue north of Leeds as it saves a change. But agree that longer trains with fewer stops needed: its tiresome stopping at Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds before getting to York. Much better to have a slow XC service following an express and used as a longer distance stopper, with expresses limited to stops at Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, York, Newcastle, some continue to Edinburgh. I suspect advance tickets are to blame as the dearth of cheap XC + connections tickets means there is a point to point demand for a through XC train stopping everywhere: Darlington for example is served by many different operators with convenient change at York so probably doesnt generate sufficient traffic to warrant continued express XC, but rather a two hourly slow XC.
I agree that there should be an hourly fast service from Birmingham to Newcastle (with alternate trains extending to Edinburgh), calling at Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, York and Darlington only. Leeds should be bypassed in order to ensure this service is fast, with Leeds to Birmingham served by separate XC trains and Leeds-Newcastle/Edinburgh served by TPE.
 

david1212

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As Manchester-Exeter/Paignton was reinstated to the timetable after a couple of years, and was in the planned 2019-20 timetable, and the Bournemouth path mentioned is still available, IMO this discussion should assume that the pre-Covid timetable will be reinstated.

Thanks, I had missed that Manchester-Exeter/Paignton had been re-instated.

As to the pre-Covid timetable being reinstated I am sceptical given the current timetable is planned to run through to December rather than a proposal to reinstate the pre-Covid from 21st June or soon after subject to the ending of all (anti)social distancing regulations and guidelines relating to public transport.

Having spent many years travelling on business Birmingham to Bristol or Birmingham to York, on XC, I would prefer the trains to continue north of Leeds as it saves a change. But agree that longer trains with fewer stops needed: its tiresome stopping at Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds before getting to York. Much better to have a slow XC service following an express and used as a longer distance stopper, with expresses limited to stops at Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, York, Newcastle, some continue to Edinburgh ....

This and similar ideas are fine for those whose starting points and destinations are served by the express. For the slower XC service do you propose it covers the full long distance route or just sections? If the latter passengers have to change. Worst case twice from slow service to express then again to slow service. Also it presumes the pathing exists.
How much time actually would be saved e.g. for Birmingham - York cutting out Tamworth, Burton, Chesterfield & Wakefield?


The big issue with XC is capacity as in too few seats due the original Virgin ' fun size ' 4 & 5 car sets never being either extended or more built. I have approached this thread as proposing to cut, or as a halfway house reduce, services north of Leeds to double up sets on more Leeds - South West and Manchester - South Coast services rather than actually running more services.
 

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Even though York - Doncaster is already extremely well served?
I guess that depends on how big the Doncaster to everything south of Sheffield market is and how much it complements loadings on semi-fast LNER services.

On the whole, cutting XC north of Leeds should never be an idea that only exists to solve the problem of on train capacity.

To put this into perspective, a 4-car Voyager has the same capacity as a 3-car class 170 despite being 23 metres longer. At around 12 metres longer than a 5-car Voyager, TPE's class 802s have nearly 100 seats more - which is a seat for every standing passenger on every XC service operated by a Voyager.

Why cut a service when you can solve the issue with new rolling stock with a more efficient layout at a roughly like-for-like length than what they're replacing?
 

waverley47

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I'll just copy/paste what I said on the "XC - RIbblehead" thread:



Three trains per hour from Leeds to Newcastle seems a little OTT, whereas a single Voyager per hour from Leeds towards the Midlands seems insufficient, so if you could "save" the three units required to provide the Leeds - Newcastle service that XC already provide (i.e. putting the Scottish leg onto the "via Doncaster" service) to enhance the Leeds - Birmingham side of things - I appreciate it's not enough to double up every Leeds - Birmingham service (and that these run through to destinations beyond Birmingham), but I'd rather that XC's limited resources were used on the Leeds/ Manchester - Bristol/Reading "core" in examples where other TOCs are already providing a good enough service beyond these places

However, the complications of cutting the service at Leeds (given the way that the times really don't match up) means I can't see it happening any time soon - maybe the priority should be trying to increase the other services south of Leeds (e.g. if you extended the platforms at Meadowhall then you could extend the two London - Sheffield services per hour to replace the half hourly Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds services, which would take a few East Midlands - Leeds passengers off the XC service north of Derby. But, again, I can't see that happening!

This is entirely the wrong mindset to have.

2tph from Newcastle to Leeds is about right. 2tph from Newcastle to Birmingham is also about right.

The problem is not the service patterns of the services that start or call at Newcastle. Instead the problem is what does Newcastle need.

Newcastle needs (and disserves) 2tph to Leeds AND 2tph to Birmingham. It's the biggest station serving a metropolis of over 1m people (Tyne and Wear is genuinely that important) and the logical 'biggest station' at the end of several routes. It's both important from a train planning point of view and a geographical point of view.

To curtail services at York for convenience entirely misses the importance of anywhere north of York.

The poster I quoted wanted to make all XC services go via Doncaster because it’s quicker.

Quicker does not equal better. Via Leeds may be slower
but it serves about fifteen times as many people (number of people living within 30 minutes of Leeds station as living within 30inuges of Doncaster). That is incredibly important, and Leeds will continue to be the most important station in Yorkshire from a passenger number perspective long after we are all gone.

Terminate the XC at Leeds. If that causes a problem with platform occupancy send them to Bradford. Would be good news for Bradford to get a connection to the Midlands.

Great. Now you have 2tph each way crossing the throat and stopping in a through platform for ten minutes each hour.

Say something goes wrong. Which Northern service do you bin to make the XC service work? Who loses? Which platform do you vacate for that time at Leeds and which town loses half of its service provision? These questions are vital, you can't make a new service at Leeds without binning something else.

Yes, but with the traffic from "outside" Birmingham-Leeds axed, the rolling stock and timetabling problems of XC are significantly reduced.

You could put Turbostars on it.
Great. You serve Leeds to Birmingham with 8tph of 10 car trains. Noone gets a train from north of Leeds to the South West ever again, because all direct trains have gone.

This is obviously hyperbole, but it's not unrealistic. Everything north of Leeds to everything south of Birmingham serves a similar number of pax to intermediate journeys. You can't bin one to concentrate on the other. Both are very important.

Yes, but with the traffic from "outside" Birmingham-Leeds axed, the rolling stock and timetabling problems of XC are significantly reduced.

You could put Turbostars on it.
Great. You now have 10tph of Birmingham to Leeds.

You also have 0tph of Birmingham to Exeter. And 0tph from Birmingham to Newcastle. And 0tph from Sheffield to Newcastle. And 0tph from Edinburgh to Bristol.

You see the problem.

Serving exclusively 'the core' of Birmingham to Leeds doesn't do anything to help Newcastle, Bristol, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Southampton, Plymouth, or Reading. All those places are on the NE to SW axis as well as Birmingham and Leeds,but they've all lost their (not via London) intercity service. Is that a worthwhile trade?

Thanks, I had missed that Manchester-Exeter/Paignton had been re-instated.

As to the pre-Covid timetable being reinstated I am sceptical given the current timetable is planned to run through to December rather than a proposal to reinstate the pre-Covid from 21st June or soon after subject to the ending of all (anti)social distancing regulations and guidelines relating to public transport.



This and similar ideas are fine for those whose starting points and destinations are served by the express. For the slower XC service do you propose it covers the full long distance route or just sections? If the latter passengers have to change. Worst case twice from slow service to express then again to slow service. Also it presumes the pathing exists.
How much time actually would be saved e.g. for Birmingham - York cutting out Tamworth, Burton, Chesterfield & Wakefield?


The big issue with XC is capacity as in too few seats due the original Virgin ' fun size ' 4 & 5 car sets never being either extended or more built. I have approached this thread as proposing to cut, or as a halfway house reduce, services north of Leeds to double up sets on more Leeds - South West and Manchester - South Coast services rather than actually running more services.

More people live in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Newcastle than live in Manchester or Leeds. Is one worth more than the other?

You can't abandon one for the benefit of the other. You'd lose half of the existing custom, and although in number of passengers you'd lose would be replaced comfortably withl local journeys, you'd lose half the reason for XC existing in the first place.

XC doesn't exist to serve local journeys from Leeds to Sheffield. That's a stupid raison d'etre for an intercity TOC. Great, you've cut all provision of XC north of Leeds, and you've turned XC into a local TOC, akin to Northern or WMT.

XC is an intercity TOC at its heart. All I see from this proposal is an application to turn it into a local TOC, serving Leeds to Sheffield and Birmingham to Derby journeys with intercity stock. Everywhere on the NE-SW axis outside of Leeds to Birmingham loses their intercity (not via London) service, for very little benefit, outside of making things prettier on a map.
 
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Aictos

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No because scrapping Cross Country north of Leeds doesn't actually help increase capacity for example East Coast as the then ECML operator dropped it's 1t2ph Glasgow services in favour of a daily return service because Cross Country was able to pick up the calls from Edinburgh so by cutting back Cross Country to Leeds now means that there are no long distance services from Glasgow to Edinburgh, Newcastle, Durham, Darlington, York, Leeds, Birmingham etc.

It's a false economy, far better to wait for the Class 220/221 fleets to be made available from Avanti West Coast and use them to increase seating capacity on XC services.
 

Neptune

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This is entirely the wrong mindset to have.

2tph from Newcastle to Leeds is about right. 2tph from Newcastle to Birmingham is also about right.

The problem is not the service patterns of the services that start or call at Newcastle. Instead the problem is what does Newcastle need.

Newcastle needs (and disserves) 2tph to Leeds AND 2tph to Birmingham. It's the biggest station serving a metropolis of over 1m people (Tyne and Wear is genuinely that important) and the logical 'biggest station' at the end of several routes. It's both important from a train planning point of view and a geographical point of view.

To curtail services at York for convenience entirely misses the importance of anywhere north of York.



Quicker does not equal better. Via Leeds may be slower
but it serves about fifteen times as many people (number of people living within 30 minutes of Leeds station as living within 30inuges of Doncaster). That is incredibly important, and Leeds will continue to be the most important station in Yorkshire from a passenger number perspective long after we are all gone.



Great. Now you have 2tph each way crossing the throat and stopping in a through platform for ten minutes each hour.

Say something goes wrong. Which Northern service do you bin to make the XC service work? Who loses? Which platform do you vacate for that time at Leeds and which town loses half of its service provision? These questions are vital, you can't make a new service at Leeds without binning something else.


Great. You serve Leeds to Birmingham with 8tph of 10 car trains. Noone gets a train from north of Leeds to the South West ever again, because all direct trains have gone.

This is obviously hyperbole, but it's not unrealistic. Everything north of Leeds to everything south of Birmingham serves a similar number of pax to intermediate journeys. You can't bin one to concentrate on the other. Both are very important.


Great. You now have 10tph of Birmingham to Leeds.

You also have 0tph of Birmingham to Exeter. And 0tph from Birmingham to Newcastle. And 0tph from Sheffield to Newcastle. And 0tph from Edinburgh to Bristol.

You see the problem.

Serving exclusively 'the core' of Birmingham to Leeds doesn't do anything to help Newcastle, Bristol, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Southampton, Plymouth, or Reading. All those places are on the NE to SW axis as well as Birmingham and Leeds,but they've all lost their (not via London) intercity service. Is that a worthwhile trade?



More people live in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Newcastle than live in Manchester or Leeds. Is one worth more than the other?

You can't abandon one for the benefit of the other. You'd lose half of the existing custom, and although in number of passengers you'd lose would be replaced comfortably withl local journeys, you'd lose half the reason for XC existing in the first place.

XC doesn't exist to serve local journeys from Leeds to Sheffield. That's a stupid raison d'etre for an intercity TOC. Great, you've cut all provision of XC north of Leeds, and you've turned XC into a local TOC, akin to Northern or WMT.

XC is an intercity TOC at its heart. All I see from this proposal is an application to turn it into a local TOC, serving Leeds to Sheffield and Birmingham to Derby journeys with intercity stock. Everywhere on the NE-SW axis outside of Leeds to Birmingham loses their intercity (not via London) service, for very little benefit, outside of making things prettier on a map.
Very well put and exactly what I’ve been saying. For some reason most people on here want to carve XC up for very marginal reasons. ‘Cut the via Leeds service because it takes 20 minutes longer than via Donny’ is typical of the attitude. Everyone wants to get there that bit faster but by inconveniencing a huge number of people (essentially the whole of West Yorkshire).

It has been mentioned cutting the Leeds service back to reduce running diesels under the wires, then in the same breath suggesting sending them all via Doncaster instead which is a much further distance under the wires.

Some people still don’t grasp the complexities of Leeds station despite many posts explaining it. Now it’s being suggested clogging up the west end throat even more by reversing XC services at Leeds and sending them to Bradford. The best way is the current way as it stands, it has a current path so send it through. Why should TPE have all the through traffic? People on here moan like hell about the amount of TPE services per hour and how unreliable the service was pre COVID but when it comes to suggestions of cutting a service east of Leeds it’s always this strange attitude that it should be XC that is cut. Obviously the Wakefield - York and beyond market doesn’t exist (hence why XC must be cut back to Leeds) but there is a phenomenal Huddersfield to York and beyond market that needs so many trains per hour.

I think there is a lot of this weird railway OCD going on too. Because the west coast XC services terminate at Manchester with TPE working the Manchester - Scotland services, then the east coast XC services must do the same with Leeds.

There is also this strange attitude of ‘it’s just a long distance local service‘. Is that not allowed then? Are trains not allowed to operate for multiple markets? Should there be a ban on journeys of less than a certain distance on long distance trains? ‘It fills up between Sheffield and Leeds’. So what, that’s the fault of the small trains ordered by Virgin, an issue that will hopefully be overcome in a couple of years.

I’m just glad the decisions are made by timetable planners (tin hat on for all the predictable May ‘18 comments which is actually what everyone wants to recreate in Leeds station with their XC Leeds through service allergies).
 

daodao

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Very well put and exactly what I’ve been saying. For some reason most people on here want to carve XC up for very marginal reasons. ‘Cut the via Leeds service because it takes 20 minutes longer than via Donny’ is typical of the attitude. Everyone wants to get there that bit faster but by inconveniencing a huge number of people (essentially the whole of West Yorkshire).

It has been mentioned cutting the Leeds service back to reduce running diesels under the wires, then in the same breath suggesting sending them all via Doncaster instead which is a much further distance under the wires.

Some people still don’t grasp the complexities of Leeds station despite many posts explaining it. Now it’s being suggested clogging up the west end throat even more by reversing XC services at Leeds and sending them to Bradford. The best way is the current way as it stands, it has a current path so send it through. Why should TPE have all the through traffic? People on here moan like hell about the amount of TPE services per hour and how unreliable the service was pre COVID but when it comes to suggestions of cutting a service east of Leeds it’s always this strange attitude that it should be XC that is cut. Obviously the Wakefield - York and beyond market doesn’t exist (hence why XC must be cut back to Leeds) but there is a phenomenal Huddersfield to York and beyond market that needs so many trains per hour.

I think there is a lot of this weird railway OCD going on too. Because the west coast XC services terminate at Manchester with TPE working the Manchester - Scotland services, then the east coast XC services must do the same with Leeds.

There is also this strange attitude of ‘it’s just a long distance local service‘. Is that not allowed then? Are trains not allowed to operate for multiple markets? Should there be a ban on journeys of less than a certain distance on long distance trains? ‘It fills up between Sheffield and Leeds’. So what, that’s the fault of the small trains ordered by Virgin, an issue that will hopefully be overcome in a couple of years.

I’m just glad the decisions are made by timetable planners (tin hat on for all the predictable May ‘18 comments which is actually what everyone wants to recreate in Leeds station with their XC Leeds through service allergies).

Extending the XC service north of Leeds is profligate. There should still be 1tph XC southwards, and to avoid clogging platforms at Leeds, the train could be sent to Neville Hill train depot to lay over. There would still be TPE trains to Newcastle/Edinburgh from Leeds. The Newcastle/Edinburgh XC service from Sheffield and beyond should take the fastest route rather than make a major detour via Leeds. If it wasn't for mining subsidence, that would be the old NE/Midland joint line via Pontefract, but currently it is the line via Doncaster.
 

Neptune

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Extending the XC service north of Leeds is profligate. There should still be 1tph XC southwards, and to avoid clogging platforms at Leeds, the train could be sent to Neville Hill train depot to lay over.
Using what capacity? You would have an hourly shunt across the mainlines eating even more up than now. I’ve said this in this and previous threads how too many people don’t understand the capacity constraints at Leeds. It has a path to/from York so what is the issue?
There would still be TPE trains to Newcastle/Edinburgh from Leeds. The Newcastle/Edinburgh XC service from Sheffield and beyond should take the fastest route rather than make a major detour via Leeds. If it wasn't for mining subsidence, that would be the old NE/Midland joint line via Pontefract, but currently it is the line via Doncaster.

If you consider 20 minutes to be a ‘major detour’ then I’m glad I don’t live in such a small place.

Is it better to have two services which give choice (and by the way, all you anti-via Leeds people do have a choice) or two services which replicate each other or worse, 1 service which clogs up a regional centre with either stabling for over an hour or shunting over a well known bottleneck that some people seemingly blame solely on XC in the first place.
 

RobShipway

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3,337
The XC services are about getting people from the south of the UK to the North of the UK and vice versa with being an Inter-City limited stop service.

So if I lived in say Edingburgh and wanted to spend two weeks holiday in Bournemouth, then I should be able to travel on a train that takes me from Edingburgh to Bournemouth non stop and without having to change.

The fact that the core of the services that XC runs stop at places between Birmingham and Leeds is as many have said is irrelevant. The service at that point is not meant for locals to be travelling Sheffield to Leeds, when there is a local TOC that is providing that service. It is for those that have travelled up from Bournemouth or Reading that are needing to travel to Sheffield or Leeds to be getting off the train.

Personally, those that are anti-Leeds or say that we have too many TOCs providing us services in the area, be thankful. Many people live in some areas where they have only one TOC and are lucky if they have two trains an hour to get them from A to B.
 

The Planner

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How much time actually would be saved e.g. for Birmingham - York cutting out Tamworth, Burton, Chesterfield & Wakefield?
You would probably claw back around 15 minutes, but that doesn't matter if you cannot utilise it. You would probably just end up sticking a load back in as pathing time as you cannot get a better path.
 
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