Shouldn't Jubilee be East / Westbound instead of North / Southbound?

miklcct

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I want to take the Jubilee going East / West but the board says northbound / southbound which I find confusing (either from Kilburn or Waterloo, Stratford is in the East - there is nothing South going to Stratford).

Is it a mistake?
 
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Mojo

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The Jubilee line is Northbound / Southbound from Stanmore to Charing Cross. From the step plate junction at Green Park to Stratford it is Eastbound / Westbound.
 

Mojo

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I often find these directions confusing. It would make more sense for it to say "towards <end of line> via <major point in zone 1>.
Most signs already either have a line diagram or the terminus (plus any key stations if space exists) on them anyway, certainly at decision points.

A distinction between direction would still be required in any case for various reasons, notably for staff to identify locations, such as traction current sections.
 

Pep and co

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Another London Underground anomaly!!!
Still puzzling that Euston to King's Cross is northbound on the Victoria line but southbound on the Northern line.
 

miklcct

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I often find these directions confusing. It would make more sense for it to say "towards <end of line> via <major point in zone 1>.
It's easier to use directions if I'm not familiar with the whole of London, especially as some termini are in remote locations.

There is absolutely no need to trace the map to the end of the line to find the terminus when I am navigating the city using a map.

The only line where using "towards <end of line>" is more useful is the Waterloo & City.
 

The exile

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I want to take the Jubilee going East / West but the board says northbound / southbound which I find confusing (either from Kilburn or Waterloo, Stratford is in the East - there is nothing South going to Stratford).

Is it a mistake?
For the original section of the Jubilee line (from Charing Cross to Stanmore) north/southbound was much more fitting than east/west. I agree with others that it would be much better to distinguish by using the terminal points (via “suitable station in Zone 1” where appropriate) rather than compass points, though it would be a bit awkward on the Northern and westbound Piccadilly and District in particular.
 

MikeWh

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Another London Underground anomaly!!!
Still puzzling that Euston to King's Cross is northbound on the Victoria line but southbound on the Northern line.
It's a temporary northward kink in the otherwise southbound Northern line.
 

The exile

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Isn’t it more the fact that the lines are approaching stations that are in fact roughly on an east/west aspect from opposite directions. Northbound City branch northern line trains are coming vaguely from the east so serve KIngs Cross first before resuming their northward path, whereas Victoria line trains are coming up from the Southwest so arrive at Euston first.
 

rebmcr

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It's a temporary northward kink in the otherwise southbound Northern line.
I think what they meant was that the same journey, between the same stations, is signposted using opposite language on the two lines. Not that the geographical topography is mismatched.
 

MikeWh

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I think what they meant was that the same journey, between the same stations, is signposted using opposite language on the two lines. Not that the geographical topography is mismatched.
Yes, I agree. What I'm trying to say is that from Euston to Angel the southbound Northern line gets further northwards before returning southbound towards Old Street. Whilst calling it southbound in relation to Kings Cross is potentially confusing, it would be worse to have three northbound Northern lines and only one sounbound with both a north and south bound line going to Kennington.
 

leytongabriel

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Also on the Piccadilly, Holborn to Cockfosters in unarguably northwards but has always been labelled as Eastbound. So for example Cockfosters to Oakwood which is a SE direction is 'Westbound'.
 

AlbertBeale

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Also on the Piccadilly, Holborn to Cockfosters in unarguably northwards but has always been labelled as Eastbound. So for example Cockfosters to Oakwood which is a SE direction is 'Westbound'.

Isn't it normal for lines which are predominantly N-S to be labelled as northbound and southbound, even though for sections of the lines that's geographically quite wrong? And similarly for predominantly W-E lines. (Predominantly being as per the relationship between the ends of the line - so, eg, the Piccadilly is, overall, E-W even though parts run N-S.) Is the Jubilee the only one which has a change of directionality [at Green Park] like that? (For understandable historical reasons, given the original extent of the line.) Or did the Piccadilly ever have a change of nomenclature, around Holborn, years ago? (I have a vague ancient memory that it might have...)
 

tomuk

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I'd agree that the compass directions aren't that intuitive.

People pausing to gaze at the line diagram is a common occurrence. I'm sure I've also heard the question asked on the platform when a trained signed for Brixton, for example, comes in passengers ask 'Is this the Southbound train?'. It's another one of those contradictions to the belief that the Underground is the best at signage.

Other than terminus I'm not sure what else you could use. New York Subway uses a combination of Uptown/Downtown, To the Bronx/Queens/Brooklyn/Manhattan

il_570xN.1909287421_dofm.jpg
 

philosopher

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For the original section of the Jubilee line (from Charing Cross to Stanmore) north/southbound was much more fitting than east/west. I agree with others that it would be much better to distinguish by using the terminal points (via “suitable station in Zone 1” where appropriate) rather than compass points, though it would be a bit awkward on the Northern and westbound Piccadilly and District in particular.
I actually think compass directions are right way to go. Defining line direction by terminus destination may be good for locals, who know where places in London are, but not so go for tourists who will not be familiar with most of London.

For a tourist using say the Northern Line at Euston and wanting to travel to Charing Cross, a sign saying ‘Towards Mordon’, may not be that helpful as they likely will not know where Mordon is in. A sign saying ‘Southbound’ should be more helpful as they more likely to know that Charing Cross is south of Euston, as they may have found out that from a map. In the case of the Jubilee Line, if direction was defined by terminus destinations, one of the directions would be Stratford. Tourists may well confuse this Stratford-upon-Avon, which of course would be the total opposite direction.

When I last using metros in continental Europe where defining direction by terminus destination is the norm, I actually went the wrong way a couple of times. If they had been defined by compass direction I doubt this would have happened.
 

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Finsbury Park certainly had 1970s installed “Northbound/Southbound” Piccadilly Line signs:
Finsbury Park still does have these erroneous signs installed (but in the modern format), I believe for simplicity with the Victoria line.

Is the Jubilee the only one which has a change of directionality [at Green Park] like that?
No, the Metropolitan line Uxbridge branch is Eastbound / Westbound whereas the main Metropolitan line is Northbound / Southbound, so a train would leave Uxbridge saying Eastbound but at Harrow on the Hill would be Southbound.

When you get onto the Circle line section, signs again refer to the service as Westbound / Eastbound (although for traction current purposes are referred to as Inner Rail / Outer Rail until you reach the District).
 

LeeLivery

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When I last using metros in continental Europe where defining direction by terminus destination is the norm, I actually went the wrong way a couple of times. If they had been defined by compass direction I doubt this would have happened.

But if you don't speak the local language, direction by terminus makes sense to me. If Paris Line 1 says 'direction Ouest' you have to know Ouest means West. If you don't speak French, you're a bit stuffed. If it says 'La Defense', all you have to do is look at the end of the route. I'd be ok in French and German-speaking countries using compass points, but wouldn't be elsewhere.
 

Mojo

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But if you don't speak the local language, direction by terminus makes sense to me. If Paris Line 1 says 'direction Ouest' you have to know Ouest means West. If you don't speak French, you're a bit stuffed. If it says 'La Defense', all you have to do is look at the end of the route. I'd be ok in French and German-speaking countries using compass points, but wouldn't be elsewhere.
I don’t understand this - the majority of signs do already say the terminus, either printed in text or as part of a line diagram!
 

Bletchleyite

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I don’t understand this - the majority of signs do already say the terminus, either printed in text or as part of a line diagram!

I came across a case last week where it didn't, and it was a bit confusing. However I seem to recall it was at Bank which is still not quite finished, so the location concerned will probably have the right signage before long.

However, that doesn't preclude making things simpler, which to me would involve showing the terminus and a key Zone 1 via point on all signs where there's a split. The ideal is that information is of the quality and clarity that most users won't have to break stride between entrance and platform, even if unfamiliar.
 

Mojo

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However, that doesn't preclude making things simpler, which to me would involve showing the terminus and a key Zone 1 via point on all signs where there's a split. The ideal is that information is of the quality and clarity that most users won't have to break stride between entrance and platform, even if unfamiliar.
Or… they could just leave them as they are and display both, and therefore people can use whatever works best for them?
 

zwk500

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I came across a case last week where it didn't, and it was a bit confusing. However I seem to recall it was at Bank which is still not quite finished, so the location concerned will probably have the right signage before long.

However, that doesn't preclude making things simpler, which to me would involve showing the terminus and a key Zone 1 via point on all signs where there's a split. The ideal is that information is of the quality and clarity that most users won't have to break stride between entrance and platform, even if unfamiliar.
The issue with the Jubille Line being that it describes a (fairly unbalanced) 'U' Shape, whereas most other London Underground lines are at least generally travelling in one direction or the other.
 

zero

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But if you don't speak the local language, direction by terminus makes sense to me. If Paris Line 1 says 'direction Ouest' you have to know Ouest means West. If you don't speak French, you're a bit stuffed. If it says 'La Defense', all you have to do is look at the end of the route. I'd be ok in French and German-speaking countries using compass points, but wouldn't be elsewhere.

Disagree, much easier to learn how to say (well, read) compass directions in a foreign language than to have to work out what the terminal stations of each line are, and then locate them on a big confusing map in order to find out which direction you need to go - especially when lines have branches with multiple termini.
 

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Or… they could just leave them as they are and display both, and therefore people can use whatever works best for them?

I have no objection to both being on the sign, e.g:

Southbound Victoria Line
towards Brixton via Victoria

Disagree, much easier to learn how to say (well, read) compass directions in a foreign language than to have to work out what the terminal stations of each line are, and locate them on a big confusing map.

The problem is that the lines are sort-of staggered through central London, so the compass directions aren't always obvious, unless you simplified it (which it doesn't) and considered that Victoria, Jubilee*, Piccadilly and Northern were always run north-south, Central always east-west, "Wimbleware"** north-south, the rest of the District and H&C east-west and the Circle clockwise/anticlockwise.

But your issue is why I'd also include a key Zone 1 via point, which is very likely to be where they're going or at least somewhere they've heard of. For the Victoria Line in Zone 1 these would probably be "towards Brixton via Victoria" southbound and "towards Walthamstow Central via Kings Cross/St Pancras" northbound.

* The U shape is indeed confusing.
** I jest slightly, but I do wonder if that bit of the District actually would benefit from its own name and colour.
 
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Dstock7080

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Ed
However, that doesn't preclude making things simpler, which to me would involve showing the terminus and a key Zone 1 via point on all signs where there's a split.
Stockwell could have:
“Edgware/High Barnet/Mill Hill East via Bank and Charing Cross” type thing?
 

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I have no objection to both being on the sign, e.g:

Southbound Victoria Line
towards Brixton via Victoria
Which they generally already do have. Not always, because some are either above or behind signs with line diagrams, hence unnecessary, or because of space constrains such as at the Clapham stations.

tfl_image-directional_signage_at_liverpool_street_elizabeth_line_station.png




central-line-1200x900.jpg


Imagine you're at Green Park and giving directions to someone going to Earls Court. "Take any train from the Westbound Piccadilly line platform," is far easier and simpler, than "Take any train on the Piccadilly line from the platform with trains towards Uxbridge, or Heathrow, or Ruislip, or Hatton Cross, or Rayners Lane, or...."
 

Bletchleyite

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Which they generally already do have. Not always, because some are either above or behind signs with line diagrams, hence unnecessary

I'd not agree they were unnecessary. A line diagram is complex and requires one to stop and consult it. Your signage system needs to ideally be designed to allow people not to need to break stride - to "flow" through the system smoothly.

Good to see there are some - I hadn't really noticed - I just know this exact situation confused me last week at a particular location (which may have been Bank but I've forgotten for certain). It was a moment of "er, which way's east/west, I'd expected north/south", because I consider the deep Tube lines (except the Central) to be primarily north/south even though some run east/west for short sections.
 

Mojo

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Good to see there are some - I hadn't really noticed - I just know this exact situation confused me last week at a particular location (which may have been Bank but I've forgotten for certain). It was a moment of "er, which way's east/west, I'd expected north/south", because I consider the deep Tube lines (except the Central) to be primarily north/south even though some run east/west for short sections.
It must have been the Piccadilly line, because that is the only *Tube* line that runs East / West rather than North / South aside from the Central and of course the Jubilee from Westminster to Stratford as per the title of this thread.
 

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