Shouldn't Jubilee be East / Westbound instead of North / Southbound?

[Bletchleyite]

It must have been the Piccadilly line, because that is the only *Tube* line that runs East / West rather than North / South aside from the Central and of course the Jubilee from Westminster to Stratford as per the title of this thread.

The Northern (Bank branch) and Victoria briefly run east-west around KX/SP, and I'm almost certain the signage says that, which is a bit confusing. I'd have to check, though.

 

[Taunton]

I've always found the Underground compass-point signage the most intuitive, possibly because I'm used to it. One downside of using line end stations can be seen in Paris, where many of the lines have been extended, one station at a time, over the years, which is difficult to keep up with. Things like Paris-style "Direction Cockfosters" are not very meaningful to the majority who need signage and just use the Underground within Central London.

New York-style "To Queens" is even more dependent on an understanding of line and city geography when you are in Midtown Manhattan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've always found the Underground compass-point signage the most intuitive, possibly because I'm used to it. One downside of using line end stations can be seen in Paris, where many of the lines have been extended, one station at a time, over the years, which is difficult to keep up with. Things like Paris-style "Direction Cockfosters" are not very meaningful to the majority who need signage and just use the Underground within Central London.

Which is why I suggested the "via" point at the edge of zone 1.

 

[Mojo]

The Northern (Bank branch) and Victoria briefly run east-west around KX/SP, and I'm almost certain the signage says that, which is a bit confusing. I'd have to check, though.

The Northern and Victoria lines are exclusively North / South and the signage reflects this.

One downside of using line end stations can be seen in Paris, where many of the lines have been extended, one station at a time, over the years, which is difficult to keep up with. Things like Paris-style "Direction Cockfosters" are not very meaningful to the majority who need signage and just use the Underground within Central London.

I'd agree with this; it's even more exceptional on the Underground where lines have multiple terminus points (not just branches, but multiple points on each line where trains can and do terminate).

I've always found the Underground compass-point signage the most intuitive, possibly because I'm used to it. One downside of using line end stations can be seen in Paris, where many of the lines have been extended, one station at a time, over the years, which is difficult to keep up with. Things like Paris-style "Direction Cockfosters" are not very meaningful to the majority who need signage and just use the Underground within Central London.

New York-style "To Queens" is even more dependent on an understanding of line and city geography when you are in Midtown Manhattan.

I find NY Subway very confusing for this reason, especially given the various terminology, not only do they refer to borough names but also Uptown / Downtown, which on the lines that run through Manhattan and out the other side, meaning that you can be on a Downtown train that suddenly becomes an Uptown one once it reaches a certain point (and it isn't on a circular line!)

 

[PeterC]

I've always found the Underground compass-point signage the most intuitive, possibly because I'm used to it. One downside of using line end stations can be seen in Paris, where many of the lines have been extended, one station at a time, over the years, which is difficult to keep up with. Things like Paris-style "Direction Cockfosters" are not very meaningful to the majority who need signage and just use the Underground within Central London.

New York-style "To Queens" is even more dependent on an understanding of line and city geography when you are in Midtown Manhattan.

I prefer compass points as I can visualise the map. People are different and there is no one size fits all solution.

 

[AlbertBeale]

It must have been the Piccadilly line, because that is the only *Tube* line that runs East / West rather than North / South aside from the Central and of course the Jubilee from Westminster to Stratford as per the title of this thread.

I always conceptualise the Piccadilly, Jubilee and Central as all being overall/broadly W-E, looking at the extremities of the lines [even though 2 of them are more of a U-shape], and similarly the Bakerloo, Northern and Victoria as being broadly N-S. I think that mostly ties in with the signage on those lines (apart from the Stanmore end of the Jubilee)?

I like the geographical approach - though I'm happy for extra info, especially in the central area, giving terminus and a major via point as per the photos above (where there's room and it's not duplicating other info alongside).

The problem is that the lines are sort-of staggered through central London, so the compass directions aren't always obvious, unless you simplified it (which it doesn't) and considered that Victoria, Jubilee*, Piccadilly and Northern were always run north-south, Central always east-west, "Wimbleware"** north-south, the rest of the District and H&C east-west and the Circle clockwise/anticlockwise.

** I jest slightly, but I do wonder if that bit of the District actually would benefit from its own name and colour.

I think the problem with a separate designation for the Wimbleware line is that it isn't a fully distinct route; there aren't only N-S and W-E services at Earls Court - there are plenty of S-E journeys, and even a few W-N ones. Hence I think it better to leave it all as branches of one line.

I was a bit in two minds about the H&C split from the Met, years back. Given the spaghetti at the western end of the Met, then maybe that was worth it as a simplifier, especially given that [for rolling stock purposes in any case] the two sets of routes were run as distinct services anyway.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Having actually worked on a gateline at a major zone 1 gateway station (unlike, seemingly, the majority of the armchair commentators) real world experience tells me that ordinary passengers find direction far more useful than final destination. As has already been pointed out, most have no idea where the final destination is relative to where they're travelling. The only time destination becomes useful is for diverging branches (I'm sure someone will say 'and for short workings' - no, because policy is, quite rightly, take the first train and change where necessary).

 

[miklcct]

I always conceptualise the Piccadilly, Jubilee and Central as all being overall/broadly W-E, looking at the extremities of the lines [even though 2 of them are more of a U-shape], and similarly the Bakerloo, Northern and Victoria as being broadly N-S. I think that mostly ties in with the signage on those lines (apart from the Stanmore end of the Jubilee)?

I like the geographical approach - though I'm happy for extra info, especially in the central area, giving terminus and a major via point as per the photos above (where there's room and it's not duplicating other info alongside).



I think the problem with a separate designation for the Wimbleware line is that it isn't a fully distinct route; there aren't only N-S and W-E services at Earls Court - there are plenty of S-E journeys, and even a few W-N ones. Hence I think it better to leave it all as branches of one line.

I was a bit in two minds about the H&C split from the Met, years back. Given the spaghetti at the western end of the Met, then maybe that was worth it as a simplifier, especially given that [for rolling stock purposes in any case] the two sets of routes were run as distinct services anyway.

My concept is that:
Bakerloo N-S
Central E-W
Circle anti clockwise / clockwise
District E-W
Hammersmith & C E-W
Jubilee E-W
Metropolitan N-S
Northern N-S
Piccadilly E-W
Victoria N-W
Waterloo & C - the only one which I find identifying by destination more useful

 

[LeeLivery]

I don’t understand this - the majority of signs do already say the terminus, either printed in text or as part of a line diagram!

I was meaning more if I had to choose between destination or compass point. Having both is definitely best.

I've always found the Underground compass-point signage the most intuitive, possibly because I'm used to it. One downside of using line end stations can be seen in Paris, where many of the lines have been extended, one station at a time, over the years, which is difficult to keep up with. Things like Paris-style "Direction Cockfosters" are not very meaningful to the majority who need signage and just use the Underground within Central London.

New York-style "To Queens" is even more dependent on an understanding of line and city geography when you are in Midtown Manhattan.

I have noticed that in Paris, that is certainly a down point. For New York, yes that relies on you knowing each Borough, which can't be the easiest for tourists.

Having actually worked on a gateline at a major zone 1 gateway station (unlike, seemingly, the majority of the armchair commentators) real world experience tells me that ordinary passengers find direction far more useful than final destination. As has already been pointed out, most have no idea where the final destination is relative to where they're travelling. The only time destination becomes useful is for diverging branches (I'm sure someone will say 'and for short workings' - no, because policy is, quite rightly, take the first train and change where necessary).

Disagree, much easier to learn how to say (well, read) compass directions in a foreign language than to have to work out what the terminal stations of each line are, and then locate them on a big confusing map in order to find out which direction you need to go - especially when lines have branches with multiple termini.

If that's what most people prefer then fair enough.

But for me, 'the confirmation' has always been the destination. When I see a Victoria Line train, the first thing I want to see is 'Brixton' or 'Walthamstow', and I use that logic for signage too. As South London is predominantly rail, buses, and trams, that's the wayfinding I'm used to. Same for the DLR.

If I was telling a friend how to get somewhere north from mine, I would say get the 'Highbury train' or 'London Bridge train' rather than 'northbound'. I guess that's stuck with me for the tube too, which does keep it consistent for tube lines like the District and Met.

 

[miklcct]

But for me, 'the confirmation' has always been the destination. When I see a Victoria Line train, the first thing I want to see is 'Brixton' or 'Walthamstow', and I use that logic for signage too. As South London is predominantly rail, buses, and trams, that's the wayfinding I'm used to. Same for the DLR.

When I see a Jubilee line train, sometimes I will see Stanmore, sometimes it's Willesden Green, sometimes it's West Hampstead, and I can't remember if I have seen anything else for a westbound train. However, they are almost the same for me unless in the rare occasions I need to travel further than West Hampstead.

 

[Taunton]

For New York, yes that relies on you knowing each Borough, which can't be the easiest for tourists.

Not only that, the 8th Avenue line in midtown Manhattan for example has trains going to Queens in both directions, which renders using borough names useless for the purpose.

 

[rebmcr]

I was meaning more if I had to choose between destination or compass point. Having both is definitely best.

I have noticed that in Paris, that is certainly a down point. For New York, yes that relies on you knowing each Borough, which can't be the easiest for tourists.

If that's what most people prefer then fair enough.

But for me, 'the confirmation' has always been the destination. When I see a Victoria Line train, the first thing I want to see is 'Brixton' or 'Walthamstow', and I use that logic for signage too. As South London is predominantly rail, buses, and trams, that's the wayfinding I'm used to. Same for the DLR.

If I was telling a friend how to get somewhere north from mine, I would say get the 'Highbury train' or 'London Bridge train' rather than 'northbound'. I guess that's stuck with me for the tube too, which does keep it consistent for tube lines like the District and Met.

I was told to get a CDG-bound RER-B when in Paris, trying to get from Nord to Le Bourget.

I did, and it was an express that didn't stop at any intermediate stations, such as Le Bourget.

 

[tomuk]

Not only that, the 8th Avenue line in midtown Manhattan for example has trains going to Queens in both directions, which renders using borough names useless for the purpose.

I believe as convention in Manhattan it is signed as Uptown & the Bronx and Downtown & Brooklyn

 

[AlbertBeale]

I believe as convention in Manhattan it is signed as Uptown & the Bronx and Downtown & Brooklyn

Which would make sense for some of the lines running the length of Manhattan (at least when they're around the middle!) - but not necessarily for other lines and when elsewhere...

 

[tomuk]

Which would make sense for some of the lines running the length of Manhattan (at least when they're around the middle!) - but not necessarily for other lines and when elsewhere...

Apart from the 14th Street Crosstown Line all New York Subway lines run North to South across Manhattan albeit a large proportion do turn east and cross into Queens half way up. In the outer boroughs it either Manhattan bound or the terminal.

 

[plugwash]

I consider the deep Tube lines (except the Central) to be primarily north/south even though some run east/west for short sections.

Not just short sections. The Picadilly line to Cockfosters could reasonablly be described as north/south, but the other end of the line to Uxbirdge and Heathrow would be better described as east/west. The Jubilee runs Southeast from Stanmore to Waterloo, then East into the Docklands before turning north (and actually slightly west) up to Stratford. The Bakerloo is quite wiggly but overall seems more West/East than North/South. I would argue that only the northern and victoria can truely be considered north/south lines.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/224813/response/560395/attach/3/London%20Connections%20Map.pdf

 

[zero]

But for me, 'the confirmation' has always been the destination. When I see a Victoria Line train, the first thing I want to see is 'Brixton' or 'Walthamstow', and I use that logic for signage too. As South London is predominantly rail, buses, and trams, that's the wayfinding I'm used to. Same for the DLR.

If I was telling a friend how to get somewhere north from mine, I would say get the 'Highbury train' or 'London Bridge train' rather than 'northbound'. I guess that's stuck with me for the tube too, which does keep it consistent for tube lines like the District and Met.

We may have been talking about different things.

If I'm following directions then I agree that "take the train to Walthamstow" is simplest, and I'll look for the platform where the final station on the map is Walthamstow (as mentioned the train might not always be going to the furthest point)

But suppose I'm new to London and I'm at Oxford Circus looking to go to Pimlico. I have no idea where Brixton or Walthamstow are and on my tiny phone screen I can't follow the light blue line to the end without a lot of effort but I do know that I want to go roughly south, seeing a platform marked southbound is immediately reassuring and I can then follow the map on that platform to confirm that Pimlico is that way. I don't really care that Brixton is the last station.

Victoria line is not a good example as it's simple and short. Though I used Oxford Circus as the north and south platforms are separate - so not easy to get to the other if you chose wrongly

 

[davews]

I also get very confused on the Jubilee line with North/West. But going by destination also has its problems, especially when I was on a Northern line train where the driver had forgotten to reverse the onboard announcement system when he reversed at Morden. To be on a north bound train when it kept saying 'this is a northern line train terminating at Morden' was most odd especially since it correctly worked out each time what station it was actually at but the 'next station is' was the one you had just got on at. Lots of confused passengers.

 

[Taunton]

Apart from the 14th Street Crosstown Line all New York Subway lines run North to South across Manhattan albeit a large proportion do turn east and cross into Queens half way up. In the outer boroughs it either Manhattan bound or the terminal.

Just like London, there's the majority case and exceptions. The 8th Avenue line, north/south, has the A train running south, at the bottom of Manhattan it turns through Brooklyn into Queens. The E train meanwhile runs north, the opposite way, then turns through the 53 Street tunnel directly into Queens. At the far end of Queens, in Jamaica, they actually are quite close. As normal in New York City the signage is inconsistent, there's certainly the expression Queens used for both directions at different points. Both connect at different points for the Airtrain shuttle to JFK airport.

 

[LeeLivery]

We may have been talking about different things.

If I'm following directions then I agree that "take the train to Walthamstow" is simplest, and I'll look for the platform where the final station on the map is Walthamstow (as mentioned the train might not always be going to the furthest point)

But suppose I'm new to London and I'm at Oxford Circus looking to go to Pimlico. I have no idea where Brixton or Walthamstow are and on my tiny phone screen I can't follow the light blue line to the end without a lot of effort but I do know that I want to go roughly south, seeing a platform marked southbound is immediately reassuring and I can then follow the map on that platform to confirm that Pimlico is that way. I don't really care that Brixton is the last station.

Victoria line is not a good example as it's simple and short. Though I used Oxford Circus as the north and south platforms are separate - so not easy to get to the other if you chose wrongly

That makes sense and yes, I've been caught out with trains terminating short. Although I have CityMapper, I still always grab a couple of paper maps with me when abroad. I don't tend to have the phone issue as I don't like relying on it - I'll never forget arriving in Greece and having my phone battery hemorrhage in the first hour.

I was told to get a CDG-bound RER-B when in Paris, trying to get from Nord to Le Bourget.

I did, and it was an express that didn't stop at any intermediate stations, such as Le Bourget.

That must've been a pain. If I knew there's fast and slow train, I'd say 'make sure you don't get the fast one, check for Le Bourget'. Nothing is an exact science, the RER is something Parisians 'know' like Metroland commuters 'know' the Metropolitan line. Not massively easy as newcomers.

 

[Basil Jet]

Which is why I suggested the "via" point at the edge of zone 1.

The Circle Line platforms at Edgware Road could say "Back here via everywhere"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Circle Line platforms at Edgware Road could say "Back here via everywhere"?

The onboard announcements are "this is a Circle Line train via X and Y", so that isn't all that silly. They only say Edgware Road or Hammersmith when you get close to those places.

 

[Basil Jet]

My concept is that:
Bakerloo N-S

It runs E-W consistently, and its enclosing rectangle is landscape. It wiggles twice in the N-S direction.

Metropolitan N-S

It runs E-W consistently apart form the Watford Branch, and every conceivable service on it has an enclosing rectangle which is landscape (apart from short trips between Watford and Wembley Park, which are very slightly portrait). The Uxbridge Branch and Baker Street to Kings Cross section scupper the N-S idea. It also has cross-platform interchanges with the Jubilee, and the routes to the island platforms can be signed as Eastbound or Westbound if the two lines agree.

 

[Mikey C]

At North Greenwich, the sign pointing towards Central London is more useful to visitors (to the O2 or Dangleway) than the "Stanmore or Stratford" signs!

 

[Tester]

It runs E-W consistently, and its enclosing rectangle is landscape. It wiggles twice in the N-S direction.



It runs E-W consistently apart form the Watford Branch, and every conceivable service on it has an enclosing rectangle which is landscape (apart from short trips between Watford and Wembley Park, which are very slightly portrait). The Uxbridge Branch and Baker Street to Kings Cross section scupper the N-S idea. It also has cross-platform interchanges with the Jubilee, and the routes to the island platforms can be signed as Eastbound or Westbound if the two lines agree.

Absolutely true, but they both look more north-south on the underground map - and that is highly significant as part of overall wayfinding.

 

[Basil Jet]

Absolutely true, but they both look more north-south on the underground map - and that is highly significant as part of overall wayfinding.

Does the 45 degree angle of the Baker Street - Wembley Park pair look more north-south than east-west? The Met as a whole looks east-west on the tube map: it's 49% left-right and 49% diagonal, with only the Watford Branch and Aldgate Station being up-down.

 

[Tester]

Does the 45 degree angle of the Baker Street - Wembley Park pair look more north-south than east-west? The Met as a whole looks east-west on the tube map: it's 49% left-right and 49% diagonal, with only the Watford Branch and Aldgate Station being up-down.

Perception is everything!

 

[AlbertBeale]

I also get very confused on the Jubilee line with North/West. But going by destination also has its problems, especially when I was on a Northern line train where the driver had forgotten to reverse the onboard announcement system when he reversed at Morden. To be on a north bound train when it kept saying 'this is a northern line train terminating at Morden' was most odd especially since it correctly worked out each time what station it was actually at but the 'next station is' was the one you had just got on at. Lots of confused passengers.

Quite rare for this to happen on tubes I think; but pretty common to have messed-up announcements on London buses!

 

[miklcct]

Quite rare for this to happen on tubes I think; but pretty common to have messed-up announcements on London buses!

Isn't the PA system tied to the signalling system on train? How can the PA system work out the next station announcements when it is running on the wrong track in the wrong direction?!

And for buses, there are some bus companies which have invested an integrated system of destination blind, stop annoucements, fare box operation, black box, GPS tracking and fault reporting.

 

[Ethano92]

Referring to the thread title, is the Jubilee not already referred to as East/Westbound on way-finding at all the stations where it appears as such on the tube map. E.g. Waterloo or Canary Wharf. At stations like Wembley Park it’s then referred to as North/Southbound.

Matching the compass direction to the direction the line vaguely appears to be travelling on the tube map at that station makes the most sense for a line such as the Jubilee which clearly has a north/south section and an east/west section.

This wouldn’t make sense for the Central line however as it has an obvious dominant East/West axis even if the West Ruislip branch looks to be North/South on the tube map, something which the Jubilee doesn’t really have. I’d say the current way-finding works quite well, the line diagrams are there for people to pause and look if they need to otherwise they can just glance at the compass direction point. I don’t think using terminus stations would make any difference.