Showing photocard on LUL

[chrisg]

Hi all,

I have noticed something odd of late when using Canary Wharf tube station. I currently have a gold card including a travelcard, but for a few weeks it has refused to go through any ticket barriers ("seek assistance" etc). 99% of the time I show it to gateline staff and they just wave me through, but the last couple of times I have done this at Canary Wharf in the evening peak, I've been asked to show my photocard also. This hasn't happened anywhere else, nor does it ever happen on Southern/FCC mainline services.

I can see the reasons for having staff check photocards to make sure 3 people aren't just sharing one ticket, but it quite annoyed me the first time - I don't use a ticket wallet, I keep my ticket in my regular leather wallet. Took me a good 45 seconds to get my photocard out of my wallet to show it to him!

I'm curious though as to whether LUL staff have a right to see the photocard - looking at the card itself, it only has the National Rail logo printed and makes references to the National Rail conditions of carriage. Do LUL staff have this right?

Thanks!

 

[Daniel]

Yes, we do have the right. It's a ticket for use on our services so we have the right to ensure it's valid if we're going to be allowing you into the system without validating a ticket yourself

 

[yorkie]

But they should only have that right if they actually know what the rules are.

Sadly, the training is so poor (in terms of NR ticketing arrangements) that many do not! This is an unacceptable situation IMO.

 

[Daniel]

Simple then, only show your ticket to me!

You trust my knowledge, don't you, Yorkie?

 

[pemma]

I've noticed before that holders of a 'New Deal' railcard can travel on London Underground on child tickets. Surly if they use the barriers and child flashes up they will be pulled aside.

 

[Deerfold]

I've noticed before that holders of a 'New Deal' railcard can travel on London Underground on child tickets. Surly if they use the barriers and child flashes up they will be pulled aside.

Perhaps - and then they can show their photocard and prove they're entitled to it. I have a staff pass and am far more likely to be checked than your average punter for similar reasons.

 

[CarterUSM]

I'm not sure this should really be a big deal. If you're asked to show a photocard then can it not just be shown without any fuss?

 

[Greenback]

Yes, the season ticket is really in two parts, the actual ticket and the photocard. So I keep both in the wallet and just show the wallet, although I have to take it out of the wallet to go through the barrier - or I just show the whole thing to the staff and they let me through no problem!

 

[mumrar]

the last couple of times I have done this at Canary Wharf in the evening peak, I've been asked to show my photocard also.

That will be to validate you are the person who purchased the ticket and has the proper authority to use it for travel.

I can see the reasons for having staff check photocards to make sure 3 people aren't just sharing one ticket

So what are you bothering to whinge about it on here for if you can see the reasons?

Took me a good 45 seconds to get my photocard out of my wallet to show it to him!

That will be because you were ill prepared. Your ticket is not valid without a photocard, so obviously that should be expected. If the 45 seconds is so important to you, have it all ready. Doubtless you may have stood there tutting loudly whilst having to find it, like a prize idiot!

I'm curious though as to whether LUL staff have a right to see the photocard - looking at the card itself, it only has the National Rail logo printed and makes references to the National Rail conditions of carriage. Do LUL staff have this right?

Thanks!

What a stupid question, all because you feel somehow inconvenienced at having to show your photocard. Theres no mention of London Midland on my XC staff pass, but I still show their barrier staff at New Street, rather than trying to make some stupid point about it.

Your entire complaint seems to be based on an objection to having to comply with displaying your ticket and photocard to barrier staff. So there's no real problem, other than your attitude. Is it because you 'don't look like a fare evader'? They may have disabled the barriers because people have been getting through with dodgy gold cards without photo ID, and it's the easiest way to detect this kind of fraud.

But they should only have that right if they actually know what the rules are.

Sadly, the training is so poor (in terms of NR ticketing arrangements) that many do not! This is an unacceptable situation IMO.

There is no implication from the OP to suspect that the staff have not received the proper training, and by following rules to the book and requesting the photocard, maybe they have. So what is actually achieved by you mentioning this at all in this thread? I could understand if you'd never mentioned it before, but it's getting very much like the merlodlliw and ATW posts. Everybody knows your stance on staff who don't know every single fare perculiarity, rule, byelaw etc, it has no place in this thread, where someone is basically complaining about having to comply with a correct and reasonable request from a member of staff.

 

[chrisg]

That will be to validate you are the person who purchased the ticket and has the proper authority to use it for travel.

So what are you bothering to whinge about it on here for if you can see the reasons?


That will be because you were ill prepared. Your ticket is not valid without a photocard, so obviously that should be expected. If the 45 seconds is so important to you, have it all ready. Doubtless you may have stood there tutting loudly whilst having to find it, like a prize idiot!


What a stupid question, all because you feel somehow inconvenienced at having to show your photocard. Theres no mention of London Midland on my XC staff pass, but I still show their barrier staff at New Street, rather than trying to make some stupid point about it.

Your entire complaint seems to be based on an objection to having to comply with displaying your ticket and photocard to barrier staff. So there's no real problem, other than your attitude. Is it because you 'don't look like a fare evader'? They may have disabled the barriers because people have been getting through with dodgy gold cards without photo ID, and it's the easiest way to detect this kind of fraud.


There is no implication from the OP to suspect that the staff have not received the proper training, and by following rules to the book and requesting the photocard, maybe they have. So what is actually achieved by you mentioning this at all in this thread? I could understand if you'd never mentioned it before, but it's getting very much like the merlodlliw and ATW posts. Everybody knows your stance on staff who don't know every single fare perculiarity, rule, byelaw etc, it has no place in this thread, where someone is basically complaining about having to comply with a correct and reasonable request from a member of staff.

Not to be blunt, but I asked a perfectly valid question and in a perfectly polite and respectful way. I did not expect to come back to a barrage of abuse from you. I am not here to complain about the process, only to ask whether it is within the rules and whether I am legally required to comply with it. The original reply from Daniel (many thanks! ) was all that was needed.

I will also mention that my annoyance at having to find my photocard was because it is never normally required. If I am aware that I will always have to show my photocard (if this was printed on the photocard for example) then I would have it to hand. There is no mention of LUL on it at all, hence the reason for my original question.

If you are going to respond to a post of mine, I would be grateful if you could do so in a polite and respectful fashion, or not at all.

Many thanks.

 

[Greenback]

I never usually have to show my photocard to get through a barrier, after all the barrier can't see! However, the ticket is not valid without a photocard so I am always prepared to show it if required.

I haven't seen a goldcard for a while, but they used to be printed on ticket stock with both a national rail and London Transport logo. To be honest, your original post can be read a syou having a moan about the inconvenience of wasting 45 seconds retrieving your photocard, although that may not have been your intention! I do think that mumrar has over reacted though!

 

[mumrar]

I'll be the first to admit that I did overreact, but your whole message implued you were under the impression the staff just wanted to inconvenience you by asking for your photocard. If it wasn't an imperative part of the ticket, then you would not be required to have one. I apologise if I read a little too much in your message, but my mood was risen somewhat by the post I quoted that yorkie had made. It still strikes me as a little odd to ask the question you did, but that's your choice, when I travel by plane (very rarely) I just do as instructed by any staff. It's safe to say I always assume they are in the right and have a reason for me to comply with their instructions.

 

[DavyCrocket]

What code comes up on the ticket gate when it says 'Seek Assistance'?
I wonder if your the coding on the ticket has become corrupted?

 

[jon0844]

It's good if tickets and photocards are being thoroughly checked, as I've never encountered this in some 7+ years of travelling, for work and pleasure.

Every station should do these for one or two days a year (given that most season ticket holders will travel almost every day).

I'm not sure at what point a ticket can be inspected (is it when you are in the station building or at a certain point near the gateline?), as you should do what the police would do for any security check; look for people who see the police and turn back. There's a good chance these are your 'targets' and should be stopped and searched with any tickets in their possession being checked.

I'm sure that would be considered a breach of their human rights and a total PR nightmare, but it would be very effective.

 

[Dolive22]

Is it your service Daniel? I thought DLR was run by Serco under contract, making TfL not the operator. I am not that good with TfL byelaws, and fully expect to be put right.

 

[chrisg]

I'll be the first to admit that I did overreact, but your whole message implued you were under the impression the staff just wanted to inconvenience you by asking for your photocard. If it wasn't an imperative part of the ticket, then you would not be required to have one. I apologise if I read a little too much in your message, but my mood was risen somewhat by the post I quoted that yorkie had made. It still strikes me as a little odd to ask the question you did, but that's your choice, when I travel by plane (very rarely) I just do as instructed by any staff. It's safe to say I always assume they are in the right and have a reason for me to comply with their instructions.

When travelling, I will obey all instructions given to me by staff too. However on this occasion, there is nothing on either my ticket nor photocard that suggests that LUL staff have the right to ask for my photocard. This is the reason for my original question. My annoyance stems not from being asked for the photocard per se, but the fact that these inspections seem to be done at random. I would much rather always have to present both photocard and ticket rather than once a month or so.

Being a regular traveller on the British railway network, I think I'm not alone in saying that I view a lot of instructions with a healthy skepticism - it is the duty of every citizen to be aware of their rights and responsibilities and this is what I was doing by asking my question. Anyhow, perhaps we had best move on.

DavyCrocket, I'm not sure of the code - I will try it again this morning and make a note of it.

 

[Dolive22]

Their authority here probably comes from the byelaws. The NR byelaws are in theory available from most staions (I think) and the same for TfL byelaws at TfL stations. A large part of their authority will derive from the terms and consitions, which will depend on whether you are travelling on Tfl or NR services and where you bought the ticket. T&Cs are online and should be available from stations.

Of course if you want to see the byelaws at a station you will have some difficulty, as with most byelaws that are meant to be deposited for inspection. Not being fully familiar with the byelaws and deposit requirements is very common.

 

[jon0844]

I would have thought, even without being shown the rules, that I could be asked to present a photocard to support my ticket at any time.

It might be an inconvenience, but random sting operations are highly effective and have a benefit to me as a paying customer in the long run.

 

[Greenback]

there is nothing on either my ticket nor photocard that suggests that LUL staff have the right to ask for my photocard.

Is there anything that suggests that they don't? But you are right, time to move on!

 

[royaloak]

Does your ticket have the photocard number on it?

 

[A60K]

Is it your service Daniel? I thought DLR was run by Serco under contract, making TfL not the operator. I am not that good with TfL byelaws, and fully expect to be put right.

Where does the DLR come into it?

 

[jon0844]

Does your ticket have the photocard number on it?

It should do. I think my photocard number is stored on my Oyster card too, as I have a season ticket loaded on it.

 

[Dolive22]

Where does the DLR come into it?

It doesn't, I misread the first post.

 

[Daniel]

Is it your service Daniel? I thought DLR was run by Serco under contract, making TfL not the operator. I am not that good with TfL byelaws, and fully expect to be put right.

Well, I suppose the OP could have been travelling with the DLR, but I had automatically assumed he was travelling on the Underground as he mentioned LU staff!

Anyway - if access to the DLR platforms is via an LU station/gateline, then personally I'd still feel I was entitled to ensure someones ticket is valid before allowing them entry.

However, do note, I'm talking about me allowing someone through. As I am not a ticket inspector, if someone gets through the gate with no problem, I don't believe that I have/should have the right to stop them and check their ticket. However, if I am going to be opening a gate and allowing someone entry without validating themselves, I do feel I am allowed to ensure that they are valid

 

[chrisg]

The code shown when trying to use the ticket in a barrier is "09" and the "seek assistance" message. Anybody know what this means?

 

[A60K]

That's a damaged ticket I believe.

 

[Daniel]

Indeed - pop over to a ticket office and you'll get a free replacement

 

[chrisg]

Wohoo!

As it is a Gold card, will I need to go to a National Rail station or could an Underground ticket desk give me a replacement?

 

[Daniel]

From what I remember, if it's just a travelcard (just zones, not eg "Stevenage to Z1256") then we can do it... but it's been a while since i've worked on that side of the glass, so don't take that as gospel!

 

[barrykas]

Wohoo!

As it is a Gold card, will I need to go to a National Rail station or could an Underground ticket desk give me a replacement?

Depends where the original was bought. If it was from LU, it needs to be an Underground Ticket Office.

If it was from a National Rail station (or Business Travel Service) then ANY Ticket Office in the former Network Southeast Area SHOULD be able to do it, but certain staff may (incorrectly!) claim that you need to go back to the original issuing office.

In the case of a TOC issue, the Ticket Office issuing the encode exchange (which is free of charge) should complete a form and send a copy to the original issuing location so they can update your season ticket record.

HTH,

Barry