Siemens' announces the Desiro Verve

[AM9]

They are indeed Aluminium - Thicker than Bombardiers efforts though, while the bogies are cast steel.

But whilst a Desiro may be heavy, a Electrostar with transformer is even heavier. And the new 387s will have a larger battery pack as a result of the Harwich line trials. So an extra 5 or so tonnes heaver still.

Are you saying that the normal 387s (as delivered to Thameslink) are effectively carrying the battery weight of the trials 379?

 

[pemma]

Whatever happens, TPE will probably want just a single design of emu

Hull electrification will be up to 3.5 years behind Manchester-York electrification, so it might be the Hull services (which will be 'semi-fasts') get a different train if they combine orders with other operators.

There's also a chance they'll decide to order bi-mode trains.
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So you're suggesting the extra costs of bi-modes and of splitting the fleet simply to bring forward a capacity enhancement by a couple of years? And if Scarborough is still on the TPE network it would be served by a slow, which by your reckoning wouldn't be a bi-mode anyway.

I don't think ordering a fleet of bi-modes is a bad idea. The bi-modes could finish up being cascaded to new routes every few years as partially electrified routes become fully electrified.

In the case of TPE they will need something to cover overnight/Sunday diversions off the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-York route.

 

[Class 170101]

But would the class 158 adhere to modern crash safety standards?

I doubt it, but an Electrostar does, and it manages to do so with, umm, all the windows the same size (OK, all but the end one, I suppose). It seems a curious Desiro thing.

Anything currently in service probably doesn't quite meet modern crashworthiness standards otherwise the Class 350 design and similarly the Class 387 design would carry on being built beyond current orders.
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Let's hope that if they're ordered for the GEML, the order is for fixed formations. the route should be able to take 11-car formations; it's the current depot that means some of the GEML sets are limited to loco+8+DVT

Maximum length for GEML is 12x20m or 10x23 metres so either 12 or 10 carrige trains respectively.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Anything currently in service probably doesn't quite meet modern crashworthiness standards otherwise the Class 350 design and similarly the Class 387 design would carry on being built beyond current orders.
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Maximum length for GEML is 12x20m or 10x23 metres so either 12 or 10 carrige trains respectively.

380s might meet the crash worthiness regs but aren't produced any longer the Verve might be in a way the product that has superseded the 380s

 

[AM9]

380s might meet the crash worthiness regs but aren't produced any longer the Verve might be in a way the product that has superseded the 380s

Isn't the Verve Siemens' competition to the Aventra? Vereve and Aventra are just name changes but it does allow the manufacturers to market fully compliant Desiro/Electrostar designs under common names that each differentiate from their previous models from which they are derived.

 

[Domh245]

Aventra is the direct successor to the electrostar family. The desiro UK family has been superseded by the desiro city and desiro verve. The city has got sliding pocket doors and a 100mph top speed, and the verve has got plug doors and a 125mph top speed (variations on this are likely available). The aventra covers a much wider range of trains than the verve, but the aventra and the 'desiro uk mk2' (desiro city and verve) covers the same sort of range.

 

[Bletchleyite]

380s might meet the crash worthiness regs but aren't produced any longer the Verve might be in a way the product that has superseded the 380s

Isn't the 380 basically a new style body with old style running gear? A one off for Scotrail who didn't want the risk of the unproven new running gear?

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder if then the Verve will be offered in variants with potential end gangways/flatter nose for 110mph operation (ie a direct successor to the 350/360/450) on a 20m coach as well as the "aero" 125 (140 mph?) version? With no official website up for it it's hard to know. But looks like essentially there's three options for GEML/MML (TP?) 125mph electric stock:
Bombardier Aventra (125mph version)
Siemens Desiro Verve
Hitachi AT300 (which would easily be available in a 23m, 125mph version)

 

[AM9]

Aventra is the direct successor to the electrostar family. The desiro UK family has been superseded by the desiro city and desiro verve. The city has got sliding pocket doors and a 100mph top speed, and the verve has got plug doors and a 125mph top speed (variations on this are likely available). The aventra covers a much wider range of trains than the verve, but the aventra and the 'desiro uk mk2' (desiro city and verve) covers the same sort of range.

Maybe CAF and Hitachi will also come along with solutions to each new UK train requirement. Alsthom and Breda are conspicuous by their absence from the UK market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's a shame Stadler don't get involved in the UK market - they have a number of very innovative solutions, particularly things like the "mini locomotive" GTW.

 

[47802]

Aventra is the direct successor to the electrostar family. The desiro UK family has been superseded by the desiro city and desiro verve. The city has got sliding pocket doors and a 100mph top speed, and the verve has got plug doors and a 125mph top speed (variations on this are likely available). The aventra covers a much wider range of trains than the verve, but the aventra and the 'desiro uk mk2' (desiro city and verve) covers the same sort of range.

Indeed I expect the Verve and City will be much the same train but Siemens have chosen to give them 2 separate names, basically a marketing ploy while Bombardier just have one name with wide ranging variants, although seeing what their competitors are doing perhaps they might decide to change that.

 

[Domh245]

I suppose a good example is with Hitachi. They have the 'A-Train' which is the family name and they all share similar bodyshells, construction methods etc. Within that they have the AT100, 200, and 300 families within the UK, which denotes the style of train. Siemens have the desiro family, with the city and verve as equivalents to the AT100/200 and 300 respectively.

Does the desiro family have different names for different styles of trains on the continent?

 

[asylumxl]

I suppose a good example is with Hitachi. They have the 'A-Train' which is the family name and they all share similar bodyshells, construction methods etc. Within that they have the AT100, 200, and 300 families within the UK, which denotes the style of train. Siemens have the desiro family, with the city and verve as equivalents to the AT100/200 and 300 respectively.

Does the desiro family have different names for different styles of trains on the continent?

Yes I believe so. For example there is the Desiro Classic and the Desiro ML.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I suppose a good example is with Hitachi. They have the 'A-Train' which is the family name and they all share similar bodyshells, construction methods etc. Within that they have the AT100, 200, and 300 families within the UK, which denotes the style of train. Siemens have the desiro family, with the city and verve as equivalents to the AT100/200 and 300 respectively.

Does the desiro family have different names for different styles of trains on the continent?

Isn't the Verve more equivalent to an AT200? It seems to fill a niche between the IEP-class stuff and the City.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't the Verve more equivalent to an AT200? It seems to fill a niche between the IEP-class stuff and the City.

It's a UK version of the general trend towards regional trains and InterCity trains becoming the same thing as speeds increase.

Like this:

http://amikassa.sk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/336760-top_foto1-f6d70.jpg

or this:

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/...er-intercity-trains-to-french-operator-sncf-/

 

[al.currie93]

I think it's a shame Stadler don't get involved in the UK market - they have a number of very innovative solutions, particularly things like the "mini locomotive" GTW.

Have you got a link to some information on this? (This could genuinely affect my university project!)

 

[Domh245]

Isn't the Verve more equivalent to an AT200? It seems to fill a niche between the IEP-class stuff and the City.

I suppose it would be. The velaro is probably more like the AT300, which is the high(er) speed stuff - ie 140mph capable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you got a link to some information on this? (This could genuinely affect my university project!)

There's tons of information about it on the Web - the two trains of interest are the Stadler GTW (that's the one with the small locomotive between the two articulated halves) and the Flirt, which is the same thing but with the traction equipment in the coach body. The GTW is available as DMU and EMU (and I suspect bi-mode by just having both module types in a 3 or more car train) and I think the Flirt EMU only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_GTW is a start.

 

[MisterT]

The Flirt can also be ordered as a DMU or even bi-mode train.
An Italian TOC just ordered the first bi-mode Flirt, according to this article:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...view/first-electro-diesel-flirts-ordered.html

 

[Class377/5]

380s might meet the crash worthiness regs but aren't produced any longer the Verve might be in a way the product that has superseded the 380s

The 380s do meet the current regs. They are still very much on offer add they are an early Desiro UK/Desiro City hybrid. Basically Siemens offer the Desiro City in two lengths, 20m like 700/707 or 23m like the 380s.

Siemens offer the electric family tree products with the Desiro City being work up to 100mph, Verve for up to 125mph and Velaro for up to 200mph.

 

[317666]

I think it's a shame Stadler don't get involved in the UK market - they have a number of very innovative solutions, particularly things like the "mini locomotive" GTW.

Agreed - I think the GTW would make a great Pacer replacement for lightly used lines.

 

[hulabaloo]

I wonder if then the Verve will be offered in variants with potential end gangways/flatter nose for 110mph operation (ie a direct successor to the 350/360/450) on a 20m coach as well as the "aero" 125 (140 mph?) version? With no official website up for it it's hard to know. But looks like essentially there's three options for GEML/MML (TP?) 125mph electric stock:
Bombardier Aventra (125mph version)
Siemens Desiro Verve
Hitachi AT300 (which would easily be available in a 23m, 125mph version)

So are some trains restricted to 110mph purely because of aerodynamic reasons - ie, could the 380 run at 125mph with its more slung back front?

 

[47802]

I wonder if then the Verve will be offered in variants with potential end gangways/flatter nose for 110mph operation (ie a direct successor to the 350/360/450) on a 20m coach as well as the "aero" 125 (140 mph?) version? With no official website up for it it's hard to know. But looks like essentially there's three options for GEML/MML (TP?) 125mph electric stock:
Bombardier Aventra (125mph version)
Siemens Desiro Verve
Hitachi AT300 (which would easily be available in a 23m, 125mph version)

I expect the manufacturers also had an eye on the GWML until 387/365 was decided upon but 125mph units might looked at when its re-let in a few years time.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I expect the manufacturers also had an eye on the GWML until 387/365 was decided upon but 125mph units might looked at when its re-let in a few years time.

Plus something like TPE would benefit hugely from this - especially if offered in a bimode version. EWR too.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could we eventually see LM go for a load of them, with possibly their 350s going to SWTs (after all work to enable 3rd rail is done)?

 

[D365]

Could we eventually see LM go for a load of them, with possibly their 350s going to SWTs (after all work to enable 3rd rail is done)?

To run at speeds greater than 110mph would require tilt..?

 

[edwin_m]

To run at speeds greater than 110mph would require tilt..?

Not necessarily. The maximum speed* for non-EPS trains on the WCML is 110mph not because going faster is in some way impossible, but because nobody has wanted to run a non-tilting train any faster badly enough to pay for the necessary investigations and changes. However the amount of curvature may mean it isn't worthwhile trying to increase speeds for non-tilting trains because they'd keep having to slow down for curves.

*Ignoring the short section of 125 near Motherwell, presumably for the benefit of 225s/Voyagers via Edinburgh.

 

[al.currie93]

There's tons of information about it on the Web - the two trains of interest are the Stadler GTW (that's the one with the small locomotive between the two articulated halves) and the Flirt, which is the same thing but with the traction equipment in the coach body. The GTW is available as DMU and EMU (and I suspect bi-mode by just having both module types in a 3 or more car train) and I think the Flirt EMU only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_GTW is a start.

Thanks for that, my research is safe! The GTW would be ideal for lightly used rural lines...

 

[Jonfun]

To run at speeds greater than 110mph would require tilt..?

350s currently run between Wolves and Stafford where the linespeed is 125. That said, it wouldn't be an exceptional improvement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for that, my research is safe! The GTW would be ideal for lightly used rural lines...

As it is used on Swiss narrow gauge lines, a UK version probably wouldn't be hard to build, but as they are slab sided it would be quite narrow. Probably fine for rural lines as you say.