2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro)

[TRAX]

If this is an interesting comparison to you guys, Paris metro trains have a full and classic driver’s desk layout even though all driver-operated lines (albeit three) have auto-pilot.

 

[k-c-p]

If this is an interesting comparison to you guys, Paris metro trains have a full and classic driver’s desk layout even though all driver-operated lines (albeit three) have auto-pilot.

At least a few years ago, these there still in regular use. During a visit to a metro control room (conducted by RATP during the "Journee du Patrimoine" ("Heritage Days")) we were told that eventhough the trains have an "autopilot" each driver must do one run along the line in manual mode in each shift to keep us his proficiency. As this info is between 5 and 10 years old, no idea if this still the case today .

 

[ashkeba]

Which means you need the compact motors, so you can get regenerative braking to slow down. The other thing is need substations that can absorb the surplus regenerative energy. I believe TfL are fitting pipes to tap this substation and tunnel heat and use it to heat buildings at new over station developments like South Kensington

Does the Bunhill 2 power station at the former City Road station use waste tube heat?

 

[TRAX]

At least a few years ago, these there still in regular use. During a visit to a metro control room (conducted by RATP during the "Journee du Patrimoine" ("Heritage Days")) we were told that eventhough the trains have an "autopilot" each driver must do one run along the line in manual mode in each shift to keep us his proficiency. As this info is between 5 and 10 years old, no idea if this still the case today .

It’s one return trip that has to be done manually, and it is indeed still the case. This was implemented as a result of the 2000 line 12 derailment.

 

[popeter45]

would it make any sence to add the ability for these to be able to run on third rail as well as fourth rail? (i.e. no need for the grounded 4th rail when outside tunnels like ok the watford DC line)
when they are intoduced to the bakerloo line would allow running to watford junction in the fruture without needing to relay track and would siginifcatly reduce the cost of extending south of lewisham if the extenion even gets made?

 

[MotCO]

The trains will be called 20XX Tube Stock, whatever XX turns out to be.

I can see the rationale - otherwise we would not know if 38 stock was 1938 or 2038 stock.

 

[py_megapixel]

I can see the rationale - otherwise we would not know if 38 stock was 1938 or 2038 stock.

In reality, I fail to see any scenario where it would not be obvious from the context.

 

[100andthirty]

would it make any sence to add the ability for these to be able to run on third rail as well as fourth rail? (i.e. no need for the grounded 4th rail when outside tunnels like ok the watford DC line)
when they are intoduced to the bakerloo line would allow running to watford junction in the fruture without needing to relay track and would siginifcatly reduce the cost of extending south of lewisham if the extenion even gets made?

LU thought long and hard about eliminating the 4th rail, but the benefits of a traction system fully insulated from earth were worth keeping, especially in older tunnels where it would not be easy to fit the mitigation techniques for stray earth current. Extending the Bakerloo back to Watford was looked at during the development of the Deep Tube Project. There is no remotely likely prospect of the Bakerloo going beyond Harrow and Wealdstone, so no provision for 3rd rail only was made. In the context of the cost of a tunnelled line extension the cost of a 4th rail is relatively trivial. Indeed I'd argue that any saving would be offset by the cost of protecting against stray earth current that I've already mentioned.

 

[popeter45]

LU thought long and hard about eliminating the 4th rail, but the benefits of a traction system fully insulated from earth were worth keeping, especially in older tunnels where it would not be easy to fit the mitigation techniques for stray earth current. Extending the Bakerloo back to Watford was looked at during the development of the Deep Tube Project. There is no remotely likely prospect of the Bakerloo going beyond Harrow and Wealdstone, so no provision for 3rd rail only was made. In the context of the cost of a tunnelled line extension the cost of a 4th rail is relatively trivial. Indeed I'd argue that any saving would be offset by the cost of protecting against stray earth current that I've already mentioned.

thanks for that
for the extension south i was thinking more about the idea long term of the bakerloo line taking over the Lewisham to Hayes line that already has 3rd rail but would require work to install the 4th rail

 

[LUYMun]

would it make any sence to add the ability for these to be able to run on third rail as well as fourth rail? (i.e. no need for the grounded 4th rail when outside tunnels like ok the watford DC line)
when they are intoduced to the bakerloo line would allow running to watford junction in the fruture without needing to relay track and would siginifcatly reduce the cost of extending south of lewisham if the extenion even gets made?

To be fair, if the Bakerloo line variant of the NTfL ever gets 3rd rail compatibility, be it alongside 4th rail or completely re-traction the line into 3rd rail, I would think that makes the Bakerloo less of a tube line and more of a tube-Crossrail hybrid, especially if there are extensions to run it from Watford to Hayes/Beckenham.

 

[TRAX]

To be fair, if the Bakerloo line variant of the NTfL ever gets 3rd rail compatibility, be it alongside 4th rail or completely re-traction the line into 3rd rail, I would think that makes the Bakerloo less of a tube line and more of a tube-Crossrail hybrid, especially if there are extensions to run it from Watford to Hayes/Beckenham.

Another Overground branch ?

 

[D365]

I can see the rationale - otherwise we would not know if 38 stock was 1938 or 2038 stock.

Indeed - the Victoria line uses 2009 Stock after all.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes I believe that's correct, though often the first 2 numbers of the year are dropped in discussion.
Also it's worth noting that sometimes the year of entering service is not the same as the year they're named after, for example the 67 stock didn't enter service until early 1968 IIRC.

However they were trying to adopt the brand "New Tube for London" (NTFL) for these, so maybe they'll go with that instead.

The name NTfL was dumped several years ago at the same time as the NBfL/New Routemaster fell out of favour. It was replaced by DTUP (Deep Tube Upgrade Programme).

 

[Mikey C]

The name NTfL was dumped several years ago at the same time as the NBfL/New Routemaster fell out of favour. It was replaced by DTUP (Deep Tube Upgrade Programme).

And neither are names that would be used for the final product anyway

Imagine in 2065 riding on a 40 year old New Tube for London, the oldest class of train in service in London

 

[Snow1964]

Exactly this. Years ago the technology was not ready. I can imagine Siemens having put a lot of money into the underfloor ”packaging” of their tube trains. Let us hope that they’re built to be easier to maintain than other items of technology from the past ten years!

It is certainly true that electrical powered items are much smaller.

The early tube trains had humps in their frames and floors because the insulation materials then used for motors meant the motors were too big for flat floor. The electrical control gear used to need big rack of equipment, but now fits in a space of a shoebox etc.

Maintaining underfloor equipment needs it to be accessible, but depending on its location is a centre pit or a side pit better (the latter where it is under outer edges of body, rather than central). I don’t want to go off topic, but not sure how many raised track maintenance roads there are (vs centre pit only maintenance roads).

Regarding air con, it will be lot more efficient using those ducts in the window pillars between the triple windows, because you are venting near head height (do it at leg height and only those wearing shorts or skirt will quickly feel benefit). Also because of the large doors don’t want to lose the chilled air when door opens so having the chilled air vents away from door openings helps. Also sensible to pause the a/c when doors open, although does have downside of running when train is accelerating and using power (ideally want to run it as much as possible from regeneration braking power)

 

[AM9]

Regarding air con, it will be lot more efficient using those ducts in the window pillars between the triple windows, because you are venting near head height (do it at leg height and only those wearing shorts or skirt will quickly feel benefit). Also because of the large doors don’t want to lose the chilled air when door opens so having the chilled air vents away from door openings helps. Also sensible to pause the a/c when doors open, although does have downside of running when train is accelerating and using power (ideally want to run it as much as possible from regeneration braking power)

Although that is mitigated to a large degree by other trains in their braking cycle feeding power back into the track.
In reality, the total ac load is way below the traction current on normal acceleration.

 

[Dstock7080]

I don’t want to go off topic, but not sure how many raised track maintenance roads there are (vs centre pit only maintenance roads).

Northfields and Cockfosters depots are being heavily adapted, indeed Northfields will be demolished and rebuilt (half at a time). Work is soon to start on doubling the amount of siding space at South Harrow to accommodate the displaced trains.

 

[mark-h]

Also sensible to pause the a/c when doors open, although does have downside of running when train is accelerating and using power (ideally want to run it as much as possible from regeneration braking power)

It may be possible to turn off the fan when the doors are open but keep the refrigeration running giving a blast of cold air when the fans restart.

 

[rebmcr]

It may be possible to turn off the fan when the doors are open but keep the refrigeration running giving a blast of cold air when the fans restart.

Indeed. Stopping and starting the refrigerant compressors would be extraordinarily inefficient, beyond what many laypeople would expect.

Air conditioning condensors & evaporators are very much a 'slow and steady' technology.

 

[chiltern trev]

Are these trains level access, i.e. no step up, for the benefit of wheelchairs, buggies, and wheelie suitcases?

 

[py_megapixel]

I thought most of the busier stations had been harrington-humped by now to provide level boarding even on the old stock? Still not ideal I know if you aren't travelling to one of those stations.

I saw a promotional video for the NTFL (now called DTUP, I am informed) program and it talked about resurfacing of platforms to make them level all the way along, though I'm not sure if that's the plan or not.

 

[spinba11]

On the pic line at Heathrow T2/3 and 4 have humps on the 2nd to front and last cars in both direction, only 6 other stations have humps, they are located on the 2nd from the west end car.

 

[100andthirty]

Plan A was for the Deep Tube to be driverless with platform screen doors. Raising the platforms by circa 150mm provided the space for the PSD foundations. Since the trains are coming with the existing signalling, I believe TfL are now on plan B for humps adjacent to the wheelchair cars. Where humps have already been provided some adjustment is likely to be required as the layout of the new train is quite different to that of the 1973 tube stock.

 

[chiltern trev]

The train data sheet states states "entrance height (above top of rail) as 700mm. [This appears twice in the bottom righthand corner of page 2).

So what is the typical Piccadilly line platform height (above top of rail)?

 

[100andthirty]

The tube platform height is 520mm. Where tube and surface stock stop there is a compromise height platform at approximately half way between the tube and surface (950mm) platform height.

 

[Goldfish62]

Plan A was for the Deep Tube to be driverless with platform screen doors. Raising the platforms by circa 150mm provided the space for the PSD foundations. Since the trains are coming with the existing signalling, I believe TfL are now on plan B for humps adjacent to the wheelchair cars. Where humps have already been provided some adjustment is likely to be required as the layout of the new train is quite different to that of the 1973 tube stock.

A pragmatic solution.

 

[Snow1964]

There is a note in latest TfL Board Finance Committee papers on new Piccadilly Line trains

Page 37
The new seat Moquette has been agreed (following disability group feedback).
I guess this is some sort of design progress !

Also on page 37
Works are continuing at Harrow sidings
The Invitations to tender for new high voltage supply (for more powerful trains) have been issued

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fc-20210623-agenda-papers-public.pdf

 

[100andthirty]

There is an article about the organisation of the engineering of the new trains in Rail Technology Magazine: https://mag.railtechnologymagazine.com/publication/?i=705846&p=67
and there will shortly be a more technical article in Rail Engineer magazine.

 

[rebmcr]

There is an article about the organisation of the engineering of the new trains in Rail Technology Magazine: https://mag.railtechnologymagazine.com/publication/?i=705846&p=67
and there will shortly be a more technical article in Rail Engineer magazine.

That's a really good article but it took a while to persuade the website to show it properly!

 

[JaJaWa]

There is an article about the organisation of the engineering of the new trains in Rail Technology Magazine: https://mag.railtechnologymagazine.com/publication/?i=705846&p=67
and there will shortly be a more technical article in Rail Engineer magazine.

Traction Components​

Designing the Piccadilly line tube stock​

Dave Hooper​

Dave Hooper, Program Director, Siemens spoke with RTM’s Matt Roberts
When the new tube stock enters service from 2025 on the London Underground’s Piccadilly line, they will be replacing a rolling stock design which has been in place for more than 50 years. Working alongside Transport for London (TfL), Siemens have worked to design and deliver a largely bespoke train to meet the needs and unique specifications of the London Underground network. Just recently, the team made a significant step forward in the project as they submitted, on schedule, the redesign plans for the new Piccadilly line tube stock.
Speaking with Dave Hooper, Program Director at Siemens, it is clear that there is more to the delivery of this programme of works than just fulfilling a contract. Rather, it represents an opportunity to deliver hugely impactful, long-term change to an area and the people who utilise the London Underground in their daily lives.
“It’s the legacy that you leave behind.
“There are so many people involved in these big programmes, but you get to leave behind something that touches the lives of millions of people. I’ve got people within my team who have been on this project for 10 years now.
“It’s really fortunate to be involved in these projects, because there aren’t that many. There’s lot of contracts in the rail industry, but not which touch so many people once you deliver them.
“And even though we’ve just come to the end of final design, it is just the end of the first phase. It’s not just about the Piccadilly line, either. That is the first one, and therefore without success on it, the customer has the right not to award the options for the Central, Waterloo & City and Bakerloo lines, but from a Siemens perspective we see this as a four line package.
“We want to be manufacturing trains for TfL for a long time. I’ll probably be retired by the time the last train is built. It could be 20 years. Even within the rail industry, that potential longevity of contract is quite unusual.
“The important thing with the Piccadilly line is proving the concept.”
Delivering that successful new train for the London Underground comes with some very real challenges too. The whole London Underground network is a highly unique piece of rail infrastructure, with characteristics which presented new problems for the team at Siemens and TfL to resolve in the design.
First and foremost, as even the most fresh-faced layman to the London tube network could tell you, it’s not particularly big. When designing trains to operate on a network with such constraints, it can raise challenges in surprising places.
“One of the big things we had to do within the Siemens team was get our colleagues, who were used to building trains and metro rolling stock in cities all around the world, to [understand the London Underground].
“You don’t normally make them so small and compact to fit the tube network. A lot of the innovation in this train is quite simply because you can’t get things to fit.
“From a delivery point of view, we always try to find tried and tested ways [of innovating] because that’s common sense. You want the train to be delivered on time, meet the criteria that the customer wants and be reliable - innovating for the sake of it brings with it risk.
“But, with this particular train, we often had no choice. We just couldn’t take things as standard like you normally would on some of our other trains, such as the Thameslink.” Dave points to the example of an air conditioning unit, an essential and quite bulky piece of equipment which on a typical rolling stock design can simply be mounted to the top of the train. It makes a lot of sense, heat rises and ensures it doesn’t take up unnecessary internal space within the train. On the London Underground network however, placing an air conditioning unit on the top of the tube stock simply doesn’t work. With such tight confines between train and tunnel at some parts of the network, it simply wouldn’t fit.
Rather, the team were required to come up with an alternative solution, utilising technology which would allow it to be placed under the floor, but not significantly raise temperatures both in the train itself and the wider London Underground tunnels an aspect of the design with tightly-defined targets outlined in the contract, due to existing challenges with heat in the network.
“We had some very strict criteria that we don’t create more heat, and we’ve got strict criteria to make it energy efficient. You’ve got these conflicting objectives all the time, but that’s what makes it really interesting because much of the innovation done on this train is bespoke.
“We may never use it for another customer.
“It fits with our message from when we first won the contract, when we and colleagues TfL coined the phrase ‘our train’, which has been our vision statement throughout. It is a bespoke product. If you look at the trains we have provided for other customers around the world, a lot of them are platform-based. You take a train and adapt it. A lot of the builds are like that; the Thameslink train again for example, it was new to the UK market but was built from a package which was tried and tested in other European countries.
“[The Piccadilly line tube stock] isn’t. It is unique. We have to rely on the customer and the customer has to rely on us, because we are designing a bespoke train and we need to work with them to understand why they put things in the specification that we need to design, because their network is unique and they know it best.
“There is a lot more reliance on that information sharing and knowledge from the customer.”
But that closer working and sharing of ideas has also been a tremendous benefit to the project so far, as Dave explains. Whenever he discusses the team and how they are fostering the culture of collaboration between everyone, he is not referring to Siemens’ people or those from TfL, nor is he referring to the teams from the UK, from Germany, Austria or elsewhere in Europe. Rather, for him - as an effective measure of his project management role - he sees all of the different parties and individuals around the table as one big collective, all pushing in the same direction.
Blurring those lines between customer and Siemens has allowed there to be a shared drive among the team, ensuring everyone involved is in a position where they feel confident and supported to make the right decisions, but also speak out and seek advice if they do encounter a problem. Every single day, as Dave describes, their jobs are to resolve problems. And the problem which seems insurmountable on a Monday morning may by the end of the week, with the support of many others in the organisation who likely do have the answers, no longer be an issue by the end of the same week.
“One of the big things I try to do is keep this momentum of openness and support around the team. I don’t distinguish between the London Underground people or the Siemens people.
“For me, they’re all part of the team and you’ve got to continuously get people to watch out for each other, support one another and make the environment feel that if people have got a problem, that they can speak out. That is how you get programmes delivered on time.
“It is not necessarily solved by hierarchy. You want the people who understand the problem. These are the best people for the job and they are not necessarily always the people at the top of the organisation. You’ll find them throughout the organisation, and that’s one of the things Siemens and I try to do.
“It’s what I say when I’m mentoring young project managers. There are two things that we need to give our stakeholders: confidence and momentum.
“That’s what we’re here to do. You’ve got to give confidence within, but also give confidence to your stakeholders because the worst thing that ever happens to a programme is when you ask members of the programme team if they can solve a problem and they suggest they don’t know what to do. Everybody panics.
“Yet, the answers are very often in the team. You just have to give people that space and confidence to go with their knowledge, work with each other and make people feel they can make decisions whatever level they are, or ask for help if they need to, because in these big matrix-type teams that we are, there’s probably another 400 people standing somewhere who’ll be able to help or have already got the answer.”
In working during the time of the pandemic, with a shift to largely working remotely and the reliance on virtual meetings, there has been a culture shift in meetings which has helped support that positive change, too. Suddenly, the wasted time of initial greetings is curtailed, as too are some of the typical drawbacks to a traditional office-based meeting environment.
“It’s funny looking back. When we switched over from what we were doing before Covid to now, we asked whether we had lost productivity.
“To be fair, in Siemens, we were used to working like this. We’ve got teams in Germany, Austria and the UK involved in this project, so virtual meetings have been normal for us internally. It made the switch over quite easy.
“But to bring the customer in was new. TfL were used to working in their offices as a team. We would come together face-to-face for most of our meetings, with virtual stuff on the side for some of the Siemens people to be phoning into on video links.
“Once we got through the initial period, buying kit and getting set up, we found we were actually more productive, and it was partly because you’ve got to be politer in virtual meetings. It has to be planned in a way that only one person speaks at once, and so therefore the listening content is a lot better.
“You’ve got some really quite technical things being discussed, so having that understanding is very important.”
And the shift to more virtual, digital ways of working and discussing bring with them other benefits too, as Dave explains when it comes to some of his designers within the team and what they can help achieve.
“Our knowledge, the tools we use, mean that our designers have 3D models and I’ve been in meetings where someone has asked ‘what happens if we do this?’ and they can just click some stuff, move it around the train and move the components around live.
“That’s far more powerful than sitting in a meeting and talking about moving this component from A to B. You’ve got an instant visualisation from the tools that we’re using, and it’s something that I will plan future programmes and projects with it in mind.”
That collective, collaborative effort has brought with it the rewards too. On schedule, TfL and Siemens were able to deliver the final designs for the new Piccadilly line tube stock and declare the milestone to the Mayor of London. Now focus shifts to manufacturing - and firstly, designing the processes to facilitate that manufacturing - but with a wealth of experience, lessons and collaborative spirit developed along the way.
For Dave and his team, this is just one step on the journey. But it is a momentous one, and one which, as he describes, has only been possible because their people “have worked immensely hard to meet the deadlines that the contract set”.