Some articulated trains have a pretty aggressive behaviour in curves, though.
I'm a simple man, if Siemens are reading this, all I ask is for an interior *not* derived from the Class 700!
Well you can see the interior in the pictures
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2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro)
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Some articulated trains have a pretty aggressive behaviour in curves, though.
Well you can see the interior in the pictures
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That was my initial reaction too. I find the current Victoria line trains quite claustrophobic. These look similar.
I thought a big part of the problem with air conditioning on the tube was that there is little/no means to ventilate the warm air out of the tunnels? Perhaps works on ventilation shafts, fans and station aircon are part of the plan too.
Vindaloo 42
Member
It's the bulky interior panels that Bombardier used in the Victoria Line 2009 stock that gives them a claustrophobic feel.
The small windows don't do justice to the amazing scenery between Walthamstow and Brixton, all 13 miles of tunnel.
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Haven't improvements been made on the Tube network to alleviate this problem recently ?
Snow1964
Established Member
The trains are only slightly longer, so the cars must be about 30% shorter, obviously helps going around some of the sharper corners (where the tunnels follow street layout near Holborn and South Kensington etc)
Presumably modern AC motors are light enough to fit on an articulated bogie, as small wheels on a lightly loaded train need multiple motor bogies
The interior shot shows massive vertical pillars between the triple windows. Not sure why they are so big unless there is a/c duct in there to ceiling vents.
I assume that the carriages are shorter due to the articulated bogies; if the articulated bogies were at the end of carriages of the existing length, then presumably their turning circle would be bigger, and they would not be able to fit round the curves in the tunnels.
It's possible to still be against something but still begrudgingly accept it (and charge it more as a result!)
Not quite - The 745s have a bogie-articulated-bogie arrangement the length of the train, but only the outermost and 2 middle bogies are motored. Stadler I'm sure would have quite happily put articulated throughout (or at least, on each 6 car half-set) but have had to put more bogies than they'd have perhaps preferred. The 755s are fully articulated mostly as a consequence of their size & the powerpack. The powerpack is too short to be bogied, wouldn't really work as a single bogie supporting it, and definitely can't be floating - forcing it to be articulated on either side, which in turn then forces the whole thing to be articulated.
There's probably a technical reason for it because the original proposed design by PriestmanGoode had the usual elongated windows.
Snow1964
Established Member
The a/c system does not want to be fighting a hot environment. Anyone who traveled on Jubilee line in first few weeks after opening will remember the stations were freezing. They only warmed up when heated trains were introduced.
The current lines tunnels get hot because the older trains are fitted with rheostat packs which act like externally mounted electric bar fires whilst accelerating. Then to slow down all the energy is converted into extra heat with friction brakes. Take away these two big sources of heat and both save electricity and make it easier for a/c
Which means you need the compact motors, so you can get regenerative braking to slow down. The other thing is need substations that can absorb the surplus regenerative energy. I believe TfL are fitting pipes to tap this substation and tunnel heat and use it to heat buildings at new over station developments like South Kensington
The design video by PriestmanGoode (https://www.priestmangoode.com/project/new-tube-london-2/) skip to 1 Min 30 Sec, showed blue and red arrows including some going through these window pillars, implying that it has some role in allowing cold air to circulate between vents at head and ankle height.
good catch, so that might be it
Mikey C
Established Member
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- 6,845
A shame about the small side windows, though (from above) there would seem to be a reason for that
I really like the front end, which manages to be funky and modern, yet still look like a proper Underground train unlike the initial Siemens design!
I hope the seats are more comfortable than on the 2009 stock, where the seat base seems really short. People will be taking long journeys on these trains
I really like the front end, which manages to be funky and modern, yet still look like a proper Underground train unlike the initial Siemens design!
I hope the seats are more comfortable than on the 2009 stock, where the seat base seems really short. People will be taking long journeys on these trains
Looks like a nice train. I'm going to miss perching on the seats at the end of each carriage - my favourite place to commute on the 73. Difficult to tell on the interior picture, but it looks like there is some luggage space next to the doors - there is certainly a vertical handrail each side of the door, which presumably has a bit of floor area associated with it - that is basically all the luggage space is on the 73 stock anyway. It looks like there might be a bit more headroom by the doors, than the very rounded 73 - that could save some very painful crick in the neck commutes if so!.
I must say I was expecting something more radical - it looks pretty similar to a traditional train, and the 10% uplift in capacity is lower than I expected. It is interesting that the implication is that the total power consumption is 10% lower than the existing stock including the A/C. If so, that is presumably how they have managed to include the A/C - the increased heat put out into the tunnels by the A/C will be partly offset by the reduced heat from everything else - I gather that was the main problem with A/C in the deep tubes, rather than space to put the kit - the heat just keeps building in the tunnels.
I must say I was expecting something more radical - it looks pretty similar to a traditional train, and the 10% uplift in capacity is lower than I expected. It is interesting that the implication is that the total power consumption is 10% lower than the existing stock including the A/C. If so, that is presumably how they have managed to include the A/C - the increased heat put out into the tunnels by the A/C will be partly offset by the reduced heat from everything else - I gather that was the main problem with A/C in the deep tubes, rather than space to put the kit - the heat just keeps building in the tunnels.
Older trains, yes, but not those from 92 stock onwards for the Rheo, and ‘95 onwards has regen braking (I thought); ie everything except the Bakerloo and Piccadilly. And they still get hot!
Complete guess about the aircon - because so much of the Picc is not in deep tube, it is quite conceivable that the aircon will only work at full power when it is out in the open. In the tubes it might only work at a reduced rate, or perhaps not in the stations.
The infrastructure required for the aircon on Elizabeth line trains is quite something - special openings under the platforms connected via ducting to atmosphere, and the openings align to the exhaust vents of the trains which will dump heat while making the station call. Retro fitting that to the deep tube would be frighteningly expensive.
You say that - but 44 Min and 20.61km of the line through town is in Tube tunnel, as well as Southgate and West of Hatton Cross[1], which is longer than the Central (35 Min from Stratford to White City) & Jubilee (28 Min from Finchley Rd to Canning Town. Yes admittedly not longer than the Northern or the Bakerloo which spends a lot of time underground, so it’s quite a lot of time if this is the case if running on low power mode.
[1] Hounslow West to Hatton + is twin track tunnel with a surface section over the Crane Bank so little different from the Subsurface
D365
Veteran Member
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Exactly this. Years ago the technology was not ready. I can imagine Siemens having put a lot of money into the underfloor ”packaging” of their tube trains. Let us hope that they’re built to be easier to maintain than other items of technology from the past ten years!
birchesgreen
Established Member
Not bad, I'm not a fan of walk-through trains but everyone is going in that direction now. Have they decided on the name of the tube stock yet?
Why are you not a fan ?
I can mostly see advantages.
I believe TfL names stock when the first one gets delivered, so as this is planned for 2025, I’d say 2025 Stock ?
py_megapixel
Established Member
Yes I believe that's correct, though often the first 2 numbers of the year are dropped in discussion.
Also it's worth noting that sometimes the year of entering service is not the same as the year they're named after, for example the 67 stock didn't enter service until early 1968 IIRC.
However they were trying to adopt the brand "New Tube for London" (NTFL) for these, so maybe they'll go with that instead.
But delivery comes before entry into service so it’s logical that it’s 67 not 68.
They may go for the NTFL brand publicly, but they have to have a technical name internally.
py_megapixel
Established Member
Yes, that makes sense.
Snow1964
Established Member
Modern equipment is smaller, for first couple of decades tube trains had humps in their frames and floors, because the insulation materials then available meant couldn’t even get a motor small enough to fit under flat floor. Stuff that used to need a big rack now fits in space no bigger than shoebox
birchesgreen
Established Member
NTfL was dumped as a name years ago, Deep Tube Upgrade has been what its been called recently.
Does this include only the trains, though ?
birchesgreen
Established Member
The trains will be called 20XX Tube Stock, whatever XX turns out to be.
Dstock7080
Established Member
Project team have been using “2024TS” recently; to describe the cab front and car mock-ups.
There’s a fair chance that’s what it will be then.
Speaking of cabs, what is the planned design of the cab layout? Projecting that the NTfL will be automated, I suppose the ends of the train could be revised to another design at some point if a driver is not needed, as sources claim?
Dstock7080
Established Member
The cabs will be fully fitted for initial manual operation on the Piccadilly.
At a later date the signalling will be upgraded to allow more trains-per-hour probably in driver attended ATO