Signallers should no longer be referred to as "signalmen"

[LSWR Cavalier]

I use "person" and words containing it a lot, just observed a goods train being despatched by a female signal-lady.

 

[satisnek]

I was under the impression that a signalman or signalwoman operates mechanical levers or pushes buttons on a panel, while a signaller sits at a computer workstation.

But I'm not an expert in the field and could be totally wrong...

 

[High Dyke]

I was under the impression that a signalman or signalwoman operates mechanical levers or pushes buttons on a panel, while a signaller sits at a computer workstation.

But I'm not an expert in the field and could be totally wrong...

Seemingly, I'm a "lever jockey", even if I work switch / button panels. Someone got uppity with a post of mine a while ago referring to those who work in places like York ROC as "computer game signallers".

 

[endofthetunnel]

I was under the impression that a signalman or signalwoman operates mechanical levers or pushes buttons on a panel, while a signaller sits at a computer workstation.

But I'm not an expert in the field and could be totally wrong...

We’re all signallers, as High Dyke says we just use different tools, some more physical than others

 

[Ianno87]

What is the obsession with treating male or females equally in every way possible? Don't get me wrong at all, I'm all for equality, but men and women, on the whole, have their own strengths and weaknesses, and are different. I'm not for equality just for the sake of equality.

In this case, equality costs nothing, and makes the railway a more inclusive place to work. This does matter.

Again, I think most people agree that equality is broadly a good thing, however, posts like yours come across as pretentious, condescending and "woke lefty". That's probably an unfair generalisation about you, but I think a lot of the UK population is sick of being told what terminology we should be using, or that the way we have spoken for generations is suddenly wrong and discrimatory.

They're not "suddenly" wrong - they've always been wrongly normalised. Imagine if the early railways had used "signaller" from Day one - we wouldn't bat an eyelid about it.

Erasing words and phrases is a horrific travesty.

Nobody is erasing anything - it's just moving with the times. "Signalmen" will always be referred to in the history books.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Signaller is not the "correct" term.

The current railway rule book, which all staff must work from, begs to differ....

 

[GusB]

Signaller is not the "correct" term. It is simply an alternative or different term. The problem is that you seem to believe that one must be right and one is wrong. They are just different, but everyone has the right to use whatever one they feel most appropriate to their vocabulary.

I care that people seek to erase perfectly normal and acceptable language.

It is also hardly last century. I'd wager a very, very large proportion of the UK would use signalman, or bin man, ice cream man etc without a second thought.

Whichever term appears on the job description is the correct one, surely? I've no issues with anyone describing themselves as signalman, signalwoman or signaller, but I'd be willing to suggest that those who entered the grade when it was male-dominated and "signalman" was the then-correct term are probably now reaching retirement. I have absolutely no clue about how many women are signallers, nor when women signallers started to become more common, but as society has modernised and recognised that there's no real reason to distinguish between men doing a job and women doing the same job I'd expect the gender distinctions to disappear. I wonder, do you still refer to women police officers as WPCs?

It's not about erasing normal and acceptable language; normal and acceptable language has adapted with the times. Sadly, some people have refused to adapt and they're usually the ones screaming about "political correctness gone mad" and using the awful "woke" word. We don't live in the Victorian era any more, and it's about time dinosaurs like you were surgically removed from the 19th century whether you like it or not.

 

[AlterEgo]

Whichever term appears on the job description is the correct one, surely? I've no issues with anyone describing themselves as signalman, signalwoman or signaller, but I'd be willing to suggest that those who entered the grade when it was male-dominated and "signalman" was the then-correct term are probably now reaching retirement. I have absolutely no clue about how many women are signallers, nor when women signallers started to become more common, but as society has modernised and recognised that there's no real reason to distinguish between men doing a job and women doing the same job I'd expect the gender distinctions to disappear. I wonder, do you still refer to women police officers as WPCs?

There are still plenty of professions which have a gender distinction in the job title for which little fuss seems to be made.

Actor, waiter, midwife, to name but a few. Are those verboten?

 

[Ediswan]

There are still plenty of professions which have a gender distinction in the job title for which little fuss seems to be made.

Actor, waiter, midwife, to name but a few. Are those verboten?

The gendered part of the term 'midwife' refers to the recipient of the service, not the provider.

 

[AlterEgo]

The gendered part of the term 'midwife' refers to the recipient of the service, not the provider.

Another land mine stepped on.

 

[GusB]

There are still plenty of professions which have a gender distinction in the job title for which little fuss seems to be made.

Actor, waiter, midwife, to name but a few. Are those verboten?

Actor is a term that can equally applied to men and women. I see no reason to have "actress". An actor is someone who acts, surely? Likewise with waiter. The one term I absolutely detest is "manageress". If you manage, you are a manager and it doesn't matter what bits you have. They're maybe not verboten as you suggest, but they're most definitely outdated.

 

[ComUtoR]

From a Drivers perspective. Signaller seems to be the most common term. However, There are many other terms that are used on a regular basis. Usually after I hang up the GSMR or the 'WAIT' is received...

 

[PupCuff]

I tend to work on the train of thought that if a fairly small change of phrasing from "signalman" to "signaller" makes even just a few people more comfortable, or attracts a few more good, reliable folk who aren't male to the grade in question then it can't be a bad thing. It's not like we're renaming the role to Track Occupancy Monitoring Controllers or something.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Whichever term appears on the job description is the correct one, surely? I've no issues with anyone describing themselves as signalman, signalwoman or signaller, but I'd be willing to suggest that those who entered the grade when it was male-dominated and "signalman" was the then-correct term are probably now reaching retirement. I have absolutely no clue about how many women are signallers, nor when women signallers started to become more common, but as society has modernised and recognised that there's no real reason to distinguish between men doing a job and women doing the same job I'd expect the gender distinctions to disappear. I wonder, do you still refer to women police officers as WPCs?

It's not about erasing normal and acceptable language; normal and acceptable language has adapted with the times. Sadly, some people have refused to adapt and they're usually the ones screaming about "political correctness gone mad" and using the awful "woke" word. We don't live in the Victorian era any more, and it's about time dinosaurs like you were surgically removed from the 19th century whether you like it or not.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the vast majority of the UK disagrees with (or couldn't care less about) that neo liberal, revisionist (and arguably deluded) philosophy that requires everything to be safe and cosy, no room for opposing views, literally demanding changes to our ordinary language and that everyone is treated equal (except anyone they disagree with), which is why there will be a Conservative government for many decades to come.

You only have to look at the LNER Ladies and Gentlemen incident, which blew up into a scandal, to see how 'normal' people reacted on social media and in the workplace water cooler discussions.

I appreciate it's me making it political in this discussion, but Labour and the left wing are associated with this very peculiar philosophy, especially the younger generations, and they will keep paying the price at the ballot box.

Life isn't fair and equal, it never has been, and never will be. Change all the language you like, it won't change human nature, it just creates uncertainty, resentment and even more discrimination. It is not reasonable to expect, or demand, people change their vocabulary, that they've used for decades, and their families used for generations, simply to make someone feel marginally more "included", especially when the people who want to feel "included" look and sound positively alien when they appear fresh out of university in some Northern provincial town that has far bigger issues to concern themselves about.

If language is the battle you want to pick, then I'm afraid you're not seeing the larger issues I'm society.

 

[IanXC]

Oddly I've always thought of a person who pulls levers as a Signalman and a person who presses buttons as a Signaller. When I really think about it a Signalman in my head is an Edwardian profession, where a Signaller is a modern profession. Almost the difference between re-enactment of a Victorian shop and the modern equivalent of. I guess my mind is already thinking of Signalman as a historic profession for re-enactment and a Signaller as the modern profession.

Equally I tend to simply refer to people as they/them/their etc, that way I don't have to think about it, but I'm not sure laziness on my part is what this is all about...

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I tend to work on the train of thought that if a fairly small change of phrasing from "signalman" to "signaller" makes even just a few people more comfortable, or attracts a few more good, reliable folk who aren't male to the grade in question then it can't be a bad thing. It's not like we're renaming the role to Track Occupancy Monitoring Controllers or something.

What about the experienced, hard working folk who see themselves as a Signalman, and increasingly think they're living in a parallel universe, and are feeling uncomfortable around the increasingly PC nature of small, but vocal elements of society?

I personally don't care what a signaller or Signalman wants to call themselves. I do care that there are people in our society who think everyone should talk a certain way, or they're suddenly labeled as discrimatory, racist, far right etc.

 

[GusB]

I tend to work on the train of thought that if a fairly small change of phrasing from "signalman" to "signaller" makes even just a few people more comfortable, or attracts a few more good, reliable folk who aren't male to the grade in question then it can't be a bad thing. It's not like we're renaming the role to Track Occupancy Monitoring Controllers or something.

Exactly this - it's a small change of phrasing. It's not asking anyone to make any major life changes. The way we used to talk about ethnic minorities, gays etc. is more or less frowned upon these days and over time it has become unacceptable to address or describe people in certain ways. Society has evolved, realised that there are people who don't fit the box that we like to place people in and we're all the better for it.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the vast majority of the UK disagrees with (or couldn't care less about) that neo liberal, revisionist (and arguably deluded) philosophy that requires everything to be safe and cosy, no room for opposing views, literally demanding changes to our ordinary language and that everyone is treated equal (except anyone they disagree with), which is why there will be a Conservative government for many decades to come.

Sorry, but methinks you talk rubbish. If the vast majority of the UK disagreed with me, we wouldn't be in the situation where same-sex couples are seen as normal (as they should be). It's not neo liberal or deluded to admit that we're not quite as bigoted as a society than we used to be. As someone who identifies as a gay man, and one who lives in a fairly rural area, I can assure you that it's anything but "safe and cosy" to be in my position, but it's a hell of a lot better than it was ten years ago, never mind twenty. There's nothing wrong with demanding changes to our ordinary language if that language is discriminatory and exclusionary. What about disabled people? There are certain terms we don't use nowadays. All you have to do is engage your brain for a moment and think "what impact will what I say have on certain people?" If you're not willing to consider how your words make people feel unwanted and marginalised, that is unacceptable in my book.

 

[PupCuff]

What about the experienced, hard working folk who see themselves as a Signalman, and increasingly think they're living in a parallel universe, and are feeling uncomfortable around the increasingly PC nature of small, but vocal elements of society?

I personally don't care what a signaller or Signalman wants to call themselves. I do care that there are people in our society who think everyone should talk a certain way, or they're suddenly labeled as discrimatory, racist, far right etc.

If you don't keep up with change, you get left behind to be honest. To 95% of the population whether they're a signalman or a signaller doesn't really bother them one way or another. A small minority of the left get very het up about these things, and a small minority of the right get very het up about them, just like pretty much any other topic you could choose. There's a difference too between someone who's old and uses language because that was acceptable when they were younger (eg the use of the archaic term 'coloured'), and someone who actively chooses to use such language so as to offend someone.

 

[Journeyman]

Life isn't fair and equal, it never has been, and never will be.

Well, I for one am going to fight damn hard to prove you wrong, and I don't care how uncomfortable that makes you feel.

Life has been absolutely catastrophically, horrifically unfair to many people for completely arbitrary and stupid reasons for centuries, and I'm not just going to lazily sit back and pontificate about political correctness. You know what? I'm going to be nice to people. That's essentially all anyone is asking.

 

[D365]

As it happens, I don’t remember ever using ”signalman”. In my experience, the job title has always been ”signaller”.

On the other hand, I traditionally preferred ”fireman” over ”firefighter”. Perhaps that was the influence of a certain children’s TV show when I was little…

 

[Nippy]

From a Drivers perspective. Signaller seems to be the most common term. However, There are many other terms that are used on a regular basis. Usually after I hang up the GSMR or the 'WAIT' is received...

Likewise, when you’ve sent ‘Sig‘ at a junction whilst a sodding great freight is crossing into the yard. .

Anyway, I started as a ‘Signalman’. When I joined in 1993 you could count the number of female signallers on my area (London to Swindon) one hand, there are a lot lot more now in the job. I guess that TVSC was getting on for just over 10% when I left, still a long way to go, but improving nonetheless.

I’m still a Signalman, but will answer to Signaller, Bobby, Officer or whatever......

 

[ainsworth74]

However, There are many other terms that are used on a regular basis. Usually after I hang up the GSMR or the 'WAIT' is received...

Guess it's a good job there's no cab voice recorder like there are in airplane cockpit

 

[pdq]

I look after software that is used for maintenance job allocation etc. Until this month's release from the developer, terms such as tradesman and manhours were embedded, and I couldn't change them. Finding the right term can be difficult (person hours, or work hours?) but not impossible.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I look after software that is used for maintenance job allocation etc. Until this month's release from the developer, terms such as tradesman and manhours were embedded, and I couldn't change them. Finding the right term can be difficult (person hours, or work hours?) but not impossible.

Or if it's worked absolutely fine beforehand, save yourself any difficulty whatsoever by leaving the terms alone!? You also save on the inevitable rolling of eyes and "PC gone mad" comments people will thinking, if not saying!

I really struggle to understand the mentality that drives this sort of thing.

If this sort of thing is your priority, and you haven’t anything better to do, it must be a very pleasant world you live and work in.

I think most women would be offended by the fact a man thinks they would be offended by terms like “man hours” !

 

[Journeyman]

I think most women would be offended by the fact a man thinks they would be offended by terms like “man hours” !

Then you're wrong. Women worked out for themselves years ago that these terms are exclusive and outdated.

You're just making yourself look worse all the time here. Friendly piece of advice - you might want to consider quietly bowing out of this thread.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Then you're wrong. Women worked out for themselves years ago that these terms are exclusive and outdated.

You're just making yourself look worse all the time here. Friendly piece of advice - you might want to consider quietly bowing out of this thread.

You really do think you're right don't you, and everybody else is wrong?

Sorry, but you're going to be continually disappointed in life, if you don't like being challenged or people having an opposing view! I genuinely think you are talking absolute nonsense, and are borderline dangerous to society, especially the fact that you think that you are in the majority.

 

[Journeyman]

You really do think you're right don't you, and everybody else is wrong?

Sorry, but you're going to be continually disappointed in life, if you don't like being challenged or people having an opposing view! I genuinely think you are talking absolute nonsense, and are borderline dangerous to society, especially the fact that you think that you are in the majority.

I am in the majority.

Deal with it.

I'm actually starting to find your enraged comments about a change to a job title that happened practically unnoticed about twenty years ago quite funny. You're the one about to burst a blood vessel with anger over it, not me. It's not a good look.

 

[endofthetunnel]

You really do think you're right don't you, and everybody else is wrong?

Sorry, but you're going to be continually disappointed in life, if you don't like being challenged or people having an opposing view! I genuinely think you are talking absolute nonsense, and are borderline dangerous to society, especially the fact that you think that you are in the majority.

I’m afraid you’re in the minority here Tazi, not the rest of us, and you seem to be the one getting most annoyed by it all.

 

[alxndr]

People are free to refer to themselves however they wish. But, language evolves, and when talking about the profession in general, or a person who hasn't expressed a preference, the default should be signaller. That is the term in the books and contracts, and that is the term which is not rooted in a basic assumption that only men can do the job. When people insist that the word "signalman" is the only word that is acceptable that indicates that they have those basic assumptions (which may well be subconscious) and aren't willing to challenge them.

Do you really think that only men are capable or want to be signallers? I can promise you, I know some very good female signallers and some very bad male signallers (and vice versa!)

 

[Ianno87]

I’m afraid you’re in the minority here Tazi, not the rest of us, and you seem to be the one getting most annoyed by it all.

Ironically, he seems to be getting very offended by it all