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Signalling Centres...Good or Bad??

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ole man

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It has just been released in various press that network rail is to close over 800 signal boxes and control most of the country from control centres.
We have power cuts everyday on the railway,if one area has a power failure it can be overcome by local arrangements etc, What will happen to all signals that for example rugby scc controls if the power cuts in the control rooms?.
Will they have back up generators?
If not i imagine that it would cause quite a embarrssing mess within network rail:oops:
 
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Metroland

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Most large power signalboxes have back up generators as well as batteries and have done since their commissioning back in the 50s and 60s.

All signals are locally fed anyway, with more back up batteries so they revert to red.

If Victoria, London Bridge, Liverpool street IECC go down, you are in trouble now, to give a few examples.

New larger centres will only continue with this tradition, perhaps using even more secure back up.

Large centres are the norm is virtually all utilities, why should the railways be any different?

Most water companies have one control centre, national grid has one at Aldermaston and a back up in Leicester, Air traffic control have their made centres at Swanick and Prestwick, road, emergency service centres are also regional centres, media is also centralised, for example ITV have one control room in Leeds and a back up at South bank, etc

Yes there can be catastrophic failures but the benefits and cost reductions of centralisation usually outweigh these rare blips.
 

ole man

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What will happen to the thousands of signal box staff? Understand some of them will retire,leave etc, some will get new jobs in the SCC's.
Will we see a RMT Led strike ballot?
 

swt_passenger

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What will happen to the thousands of signal box staff? Understand some of them will retire,leave etc, some will get new jobs in the SCC's.
Will we see a RMT Led strike ballot?

Thousands of the signalling staff will move to the new ROCs. The larger ROCs like Three Bridges are typically employing about 500 signallers (to allow for 4 shifts, holiday reliefs etc). There'll still be a practical limit to what one signaller can cover - it won't be run by 14 people, that's for sure...

RMT did a bit of posturing a couple of months back (as this isn't really 'new' news) but I think it has gone quiet again now that some numbers have been crunched. There are a lot of retirements expected where as you suggest won't be replaced, but I expect as long as there are no compulsory redundancies RMT can't have much to say - the number of signal boxes has always been contracting, I think it has been said that the current rate isn't as high as under BR...
 

Metroland

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What will happen to the thousands of signal box staff? Understand some of them will retire,leave etc, some will get new jobs in the SCC's.
Will we see a RMT Led strike ballot?

Natural wastage the average age of signallers is 46. NR are just continuing the same process that started back in the 1900s and accelerated in the 50s and 60s and 70s. In fact BR was closing 100 signal boxes a year, NR will only be closing 50 (albeit in some cases bigger ones than before).

NR are still recruiting signallers, but it's a different sort of job compared to what it once was, and large control centres and office like environments are now the norm.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/10173.aspx
 

Toots

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Metroland,yet again you are generalising about the job when clearly you don't know what is going on in other areas!.Yes your statements may be true for some areas,but for others this is simply not the case.Large control centres are not the norm in a lot of areas,Shrewsbury,Northern England,North Wales,large parts of Scotland,to name a few.As for your statement about natural wastage?,what utter rubbish!,already we have two boxes closing in the very first phase of the restructuring and many of the Signallers have nowhere to go.In the event of the entire Lancashire Signalling structure moving to Manchester in 2017?,do you honestly think natural wastage can cope with anything like the numbers of people being displaced?..I'll answer for you,NO!.
You seem to take a Management line on most of your comments on here which is fine,but at least make it clear that's the angle you are coming from.
 

ole man

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How many signalling staff were you mention are to lose there jobs? i can imagine quite a few.
I'll use crewe to shrewsbury which will get passed over to cardiff when its complete,quite a few signalling staff will go, and even if offered a job, it wouldn't be viable for a man from wem for example to get to cardiff everyday.
 

DarloRich

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How many signalling staff were you mention are to lose there jobs? i can imagine quite a few.
I'll use crewe to shrewsbury which will get passed over to cardiff when its complete,quite a few signalling staff will go, and even if offered a job, it wouldn't be viable for a man from wem for example to get to cardiff everyday.

quite - but the offer to transfer will be made thus covering legalities

 

wbbminerals

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I think it's bad, more signal boxes means more men on the ground. Also then the railways are not as vulnerable to terrorism. I'd also assume it would be more stressful for the signallers if they are covering a much larger area?
 

Toots

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How many signalling staff were you mention are to lose there jobs? i can imagine quite a few.
I'll use crewe to shrewsbury which will get passed over to cardiff when its complete,quite a few signalling staff will go, and even if offered a job, it wouldn't be viable for a man from wem for example to get to cardiff everyday.

Huge amounts of people will lose their jobs,it's three or four to a box plus Reliefs,but then you have the likes of Preston and Carlisle closing as well.The process has indeed been going on for years but it's been a gradual,paced progression and of course signallers in BR days were moved to other grades such as driving,station staff or Guards and these avenues are simply no longer available.Transferring will be very difficult as well,it doesn't atke a genius to work out that if a new Signalling centre was recruiting in say,Manchester,it is displaced Manchester Signallers who will get those jobs.
 

Pete2210

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Although it's a shame that smaller signal boxes are closing, but there is also the problems of maintenance, both of the building and the equipment.

I started as a Signalman on LT back in 1965(a Box-Boy from 1963) and finished up in the Central Line Control centre in 2003, so having seen both sides of the coin I am in favour of centralised signalling control centres, however using the technology we had in the 1980's (Entrance-Exit) signalling allowed Signalmen to keep a close eye on the service and also to watch what was happening elsewhere within the Centres control area, I don't believe the latest workstation based methods allows such a close contact with the railway outside of the Signalman's immediate control area, but I maybe wrong;)

Pete
 

Metroland

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Metroland,yet again you are generalising about the job when clearly you don't know what is going on in other areas!.Yes your statements may be true for some areas,but for others this is simply not the case.Large control centres are not the norm in a lot of areas,Shrewsbury,Northern England,North Wales,large parts of Scotland,to name a few.As for your statement about natural wastage?,what utter rubbish!,already we have two boxes closing in the very first phase of the restructuring and many of the Signallers have nowhere to go.In the event of the entire Lancashire Signalling structure moving to Manchester in 2017?,do you honestly think natural wastage can cope with anything like the numbers of people being displaced?..I'll answer for you,NO!.
You seem to take a Management line on most of your comments on here which is fine,but at least make it clear that's the angle you are coming from.

A Management line? Interesting concept. Call it what you will, it's my opinion after working in a large variety of locations and serious interest in the subject. I also happen to think the biggest challenge the railway has is to save money, because if it doesn't cut costs it won't be allowed to expand and may even contract.

I am aware what is going on in other areas and the infrastructure in place, if you search against my name there is lists of where mechanical boxes are. Next, it is NR's aspiration natural wastage will cover most of this. However, I suspect as it's a 20-40 year project most people can be accommodated even if they have to move out of the signalling grade to other NR posts.

I realise some areas are worse than others, but it is part of the signalling grade, that at some stage you will have to move locations, that is the nature of the job as technology improves and working practices change. When big signalling centres, like Trent, Reading, Gloucester, Birmingham new street and Rugby came in during the 60s a lot of people were displaced. The railway continued to work fine, if not better at these locations and most people, if there were prepared to move, were re-accommodated.
 

Toots

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You have still not actually said if you are a Manager though,NR's aspiration that natural wastage will cover it?,it maybe the line that is being peddled but as I have said in previous posts and the fact you completely miss is that in the times prior to privatization when the majority of signalboxes where closed,opportunities were available in other grades and that is no longer the case.30-40 years?,that is certainly not the timeline issued by NR,in many cases its 5-7 years (40 years is for the odd case as you well know),so where does that leave 'NR aspirations'?.
 

Metroland

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No I'm not a manager, in fact I don't even work for the railways now, that's why I can freely express an opinion (within the law).

In BR days there were lines of promotion, you couldn't just be transferred to any grade. NR will no doubt have their own arrangements which they will discuss with the trade unions. But there is no reason people cannot be absorbed within the company at some location, even if this meets retraining (I suspect).

While I do have some sympathy, it is unrealistic to expect Victorian signalling and worn out 1960s PSBs to carry on forever, and NR will understandably seek opportunities to consolidate control in line with the latest technology to make the railway more cost effective and responsive. The railway is not a museum, and semaphore boxes are best seen on heritage railways.
 

blue sabre

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Huge amounts of people will lose their jobs,it's three or four to a box plus Reliefs,but then you have the likes of Preston and Carlisle closing as well.The process has indeed been going on for years but it's been a gradual,paced progression and of course signallers in BR days were moved to other grades such as driving,station staff or Guards and these avenues are simply no longer available.Transferring will be very difficult as well,it doesn't atke a genius to work out that if a new Signalling centre was recruiting in say,Manchester,it is displaced Manchester Signallers who will get those jobs.
It has happened to thousands of people in other industries so why should the railways be any different? In an ideal world everyone would be employed, but this isn't an ideal world, it's the real world. Fares are rising year on year higher than the rate of inflation so if the railways can do things cheaper without detriment to the service then that is exactly what they should be doing.
Just take a look around Wearside, people left school and went straight into the shipyards or the mines , these all either closed or streamlined their business in the mid late 90's - luckily just as the call centre industry was taking off up here, now a lot of these are sending more and more work offshore to reduce jobs and the same people are out of work again.
The railways have to modernise or they will stagnate.
 

Old Timer

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Most large power signalboxes have back up generators as well as batteries and have done since their commissioning back in the 50s and 60s.

All signals are locally fed anyway, with more back up batteries so they revert to red.

If Victoria, London Bridge, Liverpool street IECC go down, you are in trouble now, to give a few examples.

New larger centres will only continue with this tradition, perhaps using even more secure back up.

Large centres are the norm is virtually all utilities, why should the railways be any different?

Most water companies have one control centre, national grid has one at Aldermaston and a back up in Leicester, Air traffic control have their made centres at Swanick and Prestwick, road, emergency service centres are also regional centres, media is also centralised, for example ITV have one control room in Leeds and a back up at South bank, etc

Yes there can be catastrophic failures but the benefits and cost reductions of centralisation usually outweigh these rare blips.
Having spent many years in the USA centralising despatching centres (signal boxes/centres in other words), many US railroads are now closing them down and moving back to smaller control centres.

It is simply a case of a conflcit between theory and practice. Any large centre is vulnerable as the US have belatedly found out. BR stopped centralising from about 1985 onwards.
 

Railsigns

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BR stopped centralising from about 1985 onwards.

Bollocks.

Leicester PSB opened 1986
West Highland Lines RETB, 1987
Willesden Suburban SC opened 1988
Far North Lines RETB, 1988
Cambrian Lines RETB, 1988
Liverpool Street IECC opened 1989
York IECC opened 1989
Yoker IECC opened 1989
Wimbledon ASC opened 1990
Marylebone IECC opened 1990
Tyneside IECC opened 1991
Slough New IECC opened 1992
Aston SC opened 1992
Ashford IECC opened 1993
Swindon B IECC opened 1993
Merseyrail IECC opened 1994
 

Old Timer

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Bollocks.

Leicester PSB opened 1986
West Highland Lines RETB, 1987
Willesden Suburban SC opened 1988
Far North Lines RETB, 1988
Cambrian Lines RETB, 1988
Liverpool Street IECC opened 1989
York IECC opened 1989
Yoker IECC opened 1989
Wimbledon ASC opened 1990
Marylebone IECC opened 1990
Tyneside IECC opened 1991
Slough New IECC opened 1992
Aston SC opened 1992
Ashford IECC opened 1993
Swindon B IECC opened 1993
Merseyrail IECC opened 1994
A lot of noise from someone talking out of their posterior.

Why no grand plan for a number of very large signalling cetres before now then. I happen to know for a fact that this was stopped when I said, and the reason for it. Were you even born then I wonder ?
 

HSTEd

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A lot of noise from someone talking out of their posterior.

Why no grand plan for a number of very large signalling cetres before now then. I happen to know for a fact that this was stopped when I said, and the reason for it. Were you even born then I wonder ?

The same reason there are no Class 91s on the West Coast Main Line as was supposed to occur, or that IC250 never happened.

There was no money for these projects.
 

whhistle

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The term "manager" means nothing these days.

What you must remember is despite the job losses, if it saves money and is meeting the NEEDS of the business (IE, the railway), then it will happen. Don't get me wrong, I am not for people loosing their jobs but I am pro-innovation and progression. If moving the railways into a modern way of working will force people to loose their jobs, then so be it. Much effort should be made to those who will loose their jobs with as many different options as possible, but if it saves more money than the signallers salary, then you cannot expect the DfT to keep people on.
 

radamfi

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Are signalling centres common in successful railway nations, such as Switzerland and the Netherlands, or do they mostly use signal boxes, or a mixture like GB?
 

GB

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A lot of noise from someone talking out of their posterior.

Why no grand plan for a number of very large signalling cetres before now then. I happen to know for a fact that this was stopped when I said, and the reason for it. Were you even born then I wonder ?

Are the dates RS listed incorrect then?

Why are you wondering when someone was born, it as little or no relevance to the topic unless you are trying to undermine him?
 

Yank 119

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Having spent many years in the USA centralising despatching centres (signal boxes/centres in other words), many US railroads are now closing them down and moving back to smaller control centres.

It is simply a case of a conflcit between theory and practice. Any large centre is vulnerable as the US have belatedly found out. BR stopped centralising from about 1985 onwards.

Could you clarify "many US railroads" please?

I only know of one US railroad that has centralised then later de-dentralised their control centres: CSX.
 

ainsworth74

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Are signalling centres common in successful railway nations, such as Switzerland and the Netherlands, or do they mostly use signal boxes, or a mixture like GB?

The Netherlands controls their entire network from something like 6 signalling centres. I'm not exactly sure of the number but it's very low.
 

Toots

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Are the dates RS listed incorrect then?

Why are you wondering when someone was born, it as little or no relevance to the topic unless you are trying to undermine him?

and RS saying 'bollocks' to OT's statement isn't undermining him is it not?!.The fact is the centralisation that some are quoting,indeed the list RS came up with,bear little relation to the centralisation Network Rail are proposing,actually, many of the IECC's etc that RS quoted are to be closed under the centralisation I suspect Old Timer is talking about.....
 

Old Timer

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Could you clarify "many US railroads" please?

I only know of one US railroad that has centralised then later de-dentralised their control centres: CSX.
BNSF took the dispatchers that work all the former Santa Fe track in California and put them in a new facility that is also used by Union Pacific dispatchers as well as the dispatcher for the Alameda Corridor. They also opened up 2 similar centers. One in Spring Texas for working the lines in South & Central Texas. The other is in Kansas City and controls the former BN & ATSF lines in the Kansas City area to the Northwest, West & South.

Add NS to that list whilst I try to dig out my info again.



and RS saying 'bollocks' to OT's statement isn't undermining him is it not?!.The fact is the centralisation that some are quoting,indeed the list RS came up with,bear little relation to the centralisation Network Rail are proposing,actually, many of the IECC's etc that RS quoted are to be closed under the centralisation I suspect Old Timer is talking about.....
Thank you chap, you made the point exactly.

After all many of the centres listed could hardly be called "centralising" - unless closing the odd box on the CrossCity North could be considered so. By the way how many boxes did we close on that route ?

Whilst BR was not looking at the major centres that NR are looking at, on the ER for example the plan was for Peterborough to be split between KX and Doncaster, and Doncaster would have extended northwards to meet up with Tyne around York, Scunthorpe would have moved onto Doncaster.

Leeds would have taken Sheffield and and NE/SW as far as Church Fenton, and Edinburgh would have taken over part of Tweedmouth.

The WCML was going to be controlled by two PSBs and the West Midlands by one, Derby and Notttingham were to be amalgamated and Leister and West Hampstead amalgamated.

These plans were then scrapped, partly because of the economics but also because of a number of other issues such as IR, employment issues, a loss of local knowledge, the risk of a loss of control and the realisation that the same number of signalmen would generally be needed irrespective of where they would be located. The disruption caused by a single PSB on a route such as Doncaster taking strike action saw to it that a major centralisation scheme was left undone.

This did not stop the introduction of new PSBs and I never stated it did, and had RS bothered to read my post properly and maybe understand what centralisation means then this would have been obvious. Many PSB/IECC on the RS list were only introduced because of manning shortages in a period when there was little relative unemployment at least so far as those actively seeking work were concerned, or because there were benefits to be gained.

With regards to age, having been aware of what was going on having actually been at work on the Railway at that time, I do take objection to someone who was not trying to tell me they know more about it than I do. Especially when in many cases they were maybe not even at school then. I am sure the rest of the Railway staff on here will understand what I mean. Too often we have people with little or no experience holding forth with what they believe or surmise to be the case and attempting to put down those who were actually there or who know their jobs.
 
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Yank 119

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BNSF took the dispatchers that work all the former Santa Fe track in California and put them in a new facility that is also used by Union Pacific dispatchers as well as the dispatcher for the Alameda Corridor. They also opened up 2 similar centers. One in Spring Texas for working the lines in South & Central Texas. The other is in Kansas City and controls the former BN & ATSF lines in the Kansas City area to the Northwest, West & South.

Add NS to that list whilst I try to dig out my info again.

Thanks for the info, tried to PM you so as not to drag this off topic, but your inbox is full. I didn't know BNSF has moved things away from Fort Worth, when did all that occur? Very interesting!
 

Toots

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Thanks for the info, tried to PM you so as not to drag this off topic, but your inbox is full.

I know,I've promised someone details about the Bridge strike appendix and was relying on him for the answer....C'mon OT,sort your inbox out!;)
 
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