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Signalman dismissed for taking break

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farleigh

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I agree, we are missing vital facts.

A HRBP would definitely be involved (Most are at MK Quadrant now) and ultimately pull/push the lever so to speak ('scuse the pun), and send/queue the data changes .
Legal advise would be taken, so everything is watertight.
I don't mean to be rude but your post is meaningless to me. What does it mean?
 
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AlterEgo

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I don't mean to be rude but your post is meaningless to me. What does it mean?


HRBP is a HR Business Partner - proper HR professionals who will have taken legal advice from NR's solicitors. Quadrant:MK is Network Rail's HQ in Milton Keynes.
 

farleigh

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HRBP is a HR Business Partner - proper HR professionals who will have taken legal advice from NR's solicitors. Quadrant:MK is Network Rail's HQ in Milton Keynes.
Thank you - it was a rather difficult post to understand but it now makes a little sense.
 

GB

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With the information that is currently available (or lack of) its hard to side with either party on this one. He may well have been legally entitled to a break but 90% of single manned locations do not have specific break times. If his shift was 1400-2200 then its hard to have sympathy when he demands the break at 1700. Even train crew would be expected to have some leeway with when they take their breaks. Do I think he deserved the sack? No. Do I think NR should have done more? Certainly...but it sounds like he chose to fall on his sword and NR gave him a little nudge....
 

AlterEgo

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RMT on individual cases are a totally different kettle of fish to the national campaign.

Always be in a union.
 

LAX54

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Arundel is a panel box, and covers quite a big area, so not your normal manual box, and also I would not class it as the height of the rush period, that would come about 1800 / 1900 when the trains arrive from London, so 1700 would be a good time before the rush hour :)
 

Islineclear3_1

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Arundel is a panel box, and covers quite a big area, so not your normal manual box, and also I would not class it as the height of the rush period, that would come about 1800 / 1900 when the trains arrive from London, so 1700 would be a good time before the rush hour :)

Remember that Arundel controls the junction to/from Littllehampton that also sees a lot of traffic from the West Coastway so when is ever a good time to take a break?
 

Iskra

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Wow. Reinstatement is very rare. Network Rail must have royally messed this one up. The managers involved will now be the ones being asked the questions.
 

LAX54

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When you are relieved or when you are legally entitled to.

20 mins between the 3rd and the 5th hour :) is the general conditions of service ruling, not always possible of course, but if we took the example of working 8 hours, with no break, 'holding it in' which could cause medical issues, then that opens another can of worms !
 

FenMan

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I smell the hand of Grayling, advised by his civil servants of course, on this.

It's one thing to be pushing for DOO or DOO-light when the fight is between staff and a particular TOC - it's been going on for many years and the Government has been helped immeasurably by the almost illiterate Dave Spart-posturing of the NUR. It's quite another when the whole network can be shut down - Grayling may be incompetent at his job, but he's not daft enough to want that on his CV.
 

LAX54

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Of course back in the 70's going to the loo was a little different, at least at a couple of boxes I worked at, (Arundel Jct & Woodgate Xing) and no doubt many many more around the Country ! A little hut a short way from the box, with a tin bucket and wooden seat, with some cleansing fluid, later Elsan fluid, then once a week, find an unused spot, dig a hole and pour the contents into said hole, trying not to splash yourself, which was not always successful !
 

johnnychips

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Of course back in the 70's going to the loo was a little different, at least at a couple of boxes I worked at, (Arundel Jct & Woodgate Xing) and no doubt many many more around the Country ! A little hut a short way from the box, with a tin bucket and wooden seat, with some cleansing fluid, later Elsan fluid, then once a week, find an unused spot, dig a hole and pour the contents into said hole, trying not to splash yourself, which was not always successful !

Is that why you're called 'swills'?
 

mpthomson

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Wow. Reinstatement is very rare. Network Rail must have royally messed this one up. The managers involved will now be the ones being asked the questions.

Only in your dreams, appeals are part of the HR process, and that process has been shown to be sound by this incident. Sacking someone after a disciplinary isn't a decision taken by just 'managers', it involves some detailed discussions with senior HR people once the disciplinary has been heard (unless it's for something blatantly gross misconduct with lots of witnesses, assaulting another member of staff would be an example).

There's a lot more to this than the RMT's press release, including what sanction was actually applied in the end and I suspect there's a confidentiality clause as part of the reinstatement that means that neither the RMT or 'Brother Lee' or the employer will say anything further publically. That the dismissal was found safe by an appeal as well as the initial hearing suggests that there's a lot more to this than we're being told by either party.
 

Journeyman

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There's a lot more to this than the RMT's press release, including what sanction was actually applied in the end and I suspect there's a confidentiality clause as part of the reinstatement that means that neither the RMT or 'Brother Lee' or the employer will say anything further publically. That the dismissal was found safe by an appeal as well as the initial hearing suggests that there's a lot more to this than we're being told by either party.

I'm guessing that the dismissal was found to be on a sound basis, but that procedure wasn't followed correctly.
 

winks

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Given that on appeal he lost too it wouldn’t surprise me if they made an exception. realised that members were due to be balloted. It happens in the post office- postie gets sacked, members walk out, Union balloted for action then postie reinstated. He probably got a final written warning instead of dismissal, but until the man speaks we won’t know
 

mpthomson

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, but until the man speaks we won’t know

He won't speak, as the RMT haven't gone into any detail about the reasons either it'll be covered by a confidentiality clause, ie if he talks about it to anyone he'll be disciplined again, probably not a wise move on his part in these circumstances and I'm sure he wouldn't jeopardise anything now.
 

14xxDave

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But I would hope that he would write it all down in a journal for all to see after his retirement or later. Things like this do need to be seen to see why they happened and what could be done. (too many see's, sorry)
D.
 

Islineclear3_1

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But I would hope that he would write it all down in a journal for all to see after his retirement or later. Things like this do need to be seen to see why they happened and what could be done. (too many see's, sorry)
D.

He may just want to retire and forget about the job thereafter. I don't know (in this case) if a confidentiality clause is still binding once he retires but what is the point of mounting a vendetta?

Only he, and his employer know the specific facts and if he had any sense, would keep his head down, work through until the end and retire with grace and dignity (and put everything behind him)
 
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Sebastian O

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There's a lot more to this than the RMT's press release, including what sanction was actually applied in the end and I suspect there's a confidentiality clause as part of the reinstatement that means that neither the RMT or 'Brother Lee' or the employer will say anything further publically. That the dismissal was found safe by an appeal as well as the initial hearing suggests that there's a lot more to this than we're being told by either party.
Hardly true, when they’ve failed twice at the EAT to show that the WTD doesn’t apply to NR.

Brilliant outcome!
 

zaax

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How come they are allowed to break health and safety legislation, especially in a safety critical job.
 

Iskra

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Only in your dreams, appeals are part of the HR process, and that process has been shown to be sound by this incident. Sacking someone after a disciplinary isn't a decision taken by just 'managers', it involves some detailed discussions with senior HR people once the disciplinary has been heard (unless it's for something blatantly gross misconduct with lots of witnesses, assaulting another member of staff would be an example).

There's a lot more to this than the RMT's press release, including what sanction was actually applied in the end and I suspect there's a confidentiality clause as part of the reinstatement that means that neither the RMT or 'Brother Lee' or the employer will say anything further publically. That the dismissal was found safe by an appeal as well as the initial hearing suggests that there's a lot more to this than we're being told by either party.

Bizarre, contradictory and unnecessarily patronising post. Have you read my previous posts in this thread? You don't even seem to know the difference between an investigation and a disciplinary hearing.

I'm quite aware of HR processes thank you, as I've already pointed out I conduct investigations, disciplinary and appeal hearing for the company I work for. HR can provide the best advice in the world, but if it isn't followed it means nothing.

The dismissal had been upheld at appeal already. It's only after further discussion that the decision was reversed, that is not demonstrating the soundness of the appeals process as whatever caused the employee to be reinstated should have been picked up during the appeal stage, not after it. That is very unusual.

Reinstatement after a failed appeal is very rare and probably an acknowledgement that the process was not sound at some point. Not following processes/policy correctly is a simple and controllable error so whoever made it, can expect to be asked questions even if only informally. Which part of that are you disagreeing with?
 
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