Silly mistake-potential SWT prosecution

[lou777]

Hi All, hoping for some advice on a recent incident.

On monday, I was stopped at Egham st for not having a ticket. I was travelling from Strawberry Hill (no tic barriers) and honestly admitted that I had not bought a ticket as I was in a rush that morning so I jumped on my scheduled 7.44 train. I apologied and asked if I could now buy a ticket but was told it was too late. I tried to look for a ticket in my bag from the previous week to prove that I regular purchase tics but I couldn't find one. I told the inspector that I would happily buy a return tic to compensate for my journey but he also told me it was too late.

When the inspector asked where I had travelled from, I stupidly answered, Staines as this was where I had changed trains. He then asked if I lived there and in my panic I replied 'Yes' which I realise now was a stupid thing to do. I immediately corrected my mistake when I realised he was asking which train I had originated from and apologised for the confusion.

An inspector told me I was under caution, read me my rights and wrote down my name and address in a notebook. He looked at my drivers licence which my parents address on and he also wrote this down. He asked how long I had lived at my current address and I told him 3 months. He said that I was not under arrest and could leave at any moment, however I chose to stay and answer his interview questions. I said that it was entirely my fault that I had been in a rush that morning and I accepted full responsibility for that. I apologised for wasting his time. He gave me a SWT business card and said someone may be in touch.

This is the first time I have been cautioned or stopped by an inspector. I am really terrified of the implications of this act of madness.

I called through to the prosecution department (4 days after incident) and they said that the incident has been notified to them but that they haven't received any details from the inspectors report. Are reports always submitted? The man on the phone said that SWT were currently dealing with 7000+ prosecutions and that it can take up to 6 wks to receive a letter. They also had my parents address recorded on the system-so the man on the phone amended this for me.

I would be very grateful if anyone knows what the next step will be for me? How likely is it that SWT will agree to a out of court settlement?

I am truly sorry about making such a mistake and it was really silly of me not to buy a ticket before my journey. I have worrying about this for days. I currently work with vulnerable children/adult and any criminal record would devastate my career in this area.

I have already sent an apology letter to SWT customer services.

Thank you for your time in reading my case. I really appreciate all the help on these forums.

 

[DelayRepay]

You'll have to wait until SWT decide how to deal with you. You'll probably get a letter asking you to explain yourself, and you can try offering an out of court settlement at that stage. An out of court settlement is not an automatic right though so they could well decide to take you to court.

Unfortunately being in a rush is not a valid reason not to buy a ticket and it does appear you have committed a criminal offence and then made matters worse by giving incorrect details about where you'd traveled from when challenged.

 

[lou777]

Thanks for your reply.

I will wait for the letter and see what happens. Will I still be asked for my version of events even though the inspector carried out a set of interview questions at the time?

He also asked for my height and build etc-any idea why? Is this for his personal reference when writing up the report?

Thanks

 

[Stigy]

Hi Lou,

It's strange that they are already familiar with the case yet haven't received the report from the Inspector. Usually the first Prosecutions here of a case is when they receive the RPI's report. This to me, suggests that the Inspector contacted his Prosecutions department and warned them of the case, probably as he feels it might warrant a second interview under caution with your agreement. This is usually the case when the RPI believes there's offences been committed but couldn't necessarily question you enough at the time. These interviews are professionaly conducted and you'll be allowed legal representation, or moral support from someone if you wish.

You can still only wait for SWT to get in touch I'm afraid, but if they want to invite you in for an interview, don't be surprised if it much sooner than 6-weeks!

 

[lou777]

Thank you so much for your replies.

The prosecution service were not familiar with my case-they just said that someone had called through with my name and address on that morning. I'm assuming that this was during the cautioning process when the inspector called through to someone to ask if I was known to them.

If it's likely that I'll be interviewed again, I'm not sure what further info I could provide -I made it clear that I was in a rush that particular morning which was entirely my own fault etc, and that I genuinely didn't know it was an offence not to buy a ticket prior to travel.

Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes for an inspector to provide his report?

 

[Stigy]

Thank you so much for your replies.

The prosecution service were not familiar with my case-they just said that someone had called through with my name and address on that morning. I'm assuming that this was during the cautioning process when the inspector called through to someone to ask if I was known to them.

If it's likely that I'll be interviewed again, I'm not sure what further info I could provide -I made it clear that I was in a rush that particular morning which was entirely my own fault etc, and that I genuinely didn't know it was an offence not to buy a ticket prior to travel.

Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes for an inspector to provide his report?

The Inspector would have contacted a company independent of SWT to verify your details (IRCAS). SWT have access to the info supplied to IRCAS so may have seen that on their system?

The inspector should write his report asap and submit it as soon as it's written (typically a few days depending on workload). Before it reaches prosecutions it'll no doubt have to negotiate internal mail. All this adds time.

It might be that they think you deliberate gave incorrect details etc to avoid further contact, but this cNt be proved with his statement alone. I might be wrong about the second interview though, given we could have had crossed wires with regard to how they know of your case. If they did search your name and address on their system alone, chances are it'll be a simple case with no need for a second interview. It just struck me as strange when I thought/assumed the RPI contacted his prosecutions dept and appear to want to speed things up.

Try not to worry!

 

[lou777]

The Inspector would have contacted a company independent of SWT to verify your details (IRCAS). SWT have access to the info supplied to IRCAS so may have seen that on their system?

The inspector should write his report asap and submit it as soon as it's written (typically a few days depending on workload). Before it reaches prosecutions it'll no doubt have to negotiate internal mail. All this adds time.

It might be that they think you deliberate gave incorrect details etc to avoid further contact, but this cNt be proved with his statement alone. I might be wrong about the second interview though, given we could have had crossed wires with regard to how they know of your case. If they did search your name and address on their system alone, chances are it'll be a simple case with no need for a second interview. It just struck me as strange when I thought/assumed the RPI contacted his prosecutions dept and appear to want to speed things up.

Try not to worry!

Thanks Stigy. Hopefully they won't be expecting a 2nd formal interview - the 1st one was scary enough! :cry: That said, It would be helpful to explain myself properly and prove to SWT that I am not a criminal and have never done anything like this. I have definitely learned a great deal about the ins and outs of railway law this week

I'll let you know when I receive the letter, as the RPI has not yet submitted his statement it seems likely that this letter could take a while..

 

[Squaddie]

I was in a rush that morning so I jumped on my scheduled 7.44 train... I tried to look for a ticket in my bag from the previous week to prove that I regular purchase tics but I couldn't find one.

How often do you make this journey?

 

[455driver]

How often do you make this journey?

Often enough to have a scheduled train!

 

[lou777]

How often do you make this journey?

I make this trip most mondays mornings since late Sept (I am at uni in Egham)

This is the first time I have been running so late so not buy a ticket and under the impression I could buy on board

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Being judgemental "my normal train" - or whatever - is that / was it a free ride all the time ?

 

[lou777]

Being judgemental "my normal train" - or whatever - is that / was it a free ride all the time ?

No I have always managed to buy a ticket in the past with no probs. In fact I normally walk/bus to Twickenham station as the connections are better so I can get a straight through train. I had to be in earlier that morning so google maps gave me the strawberry hill route.

I work in central london the rest of the wk and buy a weekly travelcard for this. Which the inspector checked during the interview. He also checked my young persons railcard.

 

[455driver]

I make this trip most mondays mornings since late Sept (I am at uni in Egham)

This is the first time I have been running so late so not buy a ticket and under the impression I could buy on board

Where did you get the idea that this is acceptable on SWTs suburban routes?

 

[lou777]

Where did you get the idea that this is acceptable on SWTs suburban routes?

I have been able to purchase a tic on route from Twickenham-Egham once with no problems. This was in the afternoon though - do timings matter?
If it is an offence to board the train without a ticket, how come it is ok to ask to buy a ticket on board? I must say I am finding these rules quite confusing to get my head around

 

[yorkie]

I have been able to purchase a tic on route from Twickenham-Egham once with no problems. This was in the afternoon though - do timings matter?

Some of those trains have commercial guards, some don't.

If it is an offence to board the train without a ticket, how come it is ok to ask to buy a ticket on board? I must say I am finding these rules quite confusing to get my head around

The rule is that you should buy at the first opportunity.

If you were unable to buy from your origin station, then the Guard may be able to sell you a ticket, and if not you buy at your destination. The Guard is unlikely to interrogate people as to whether or not there was an opportunity as that's not their job.

It is, however, the job of revenue protection officers to determine whether or not anyone without a ticket has a valid reason for not holding one. They may ask a series of questions to determine if it's a legitimate mistake or not, and if the person starts lying, then that could be seen as evidence of intent to avoid payment and therefore a prosecution for a criminal offence is likely. That said, they may accept an out of court settlement, which would be in the interests of both parties. We cannot guess how much SWT would be willing to settle for, as it would depend on numerous factors, but as you need to avoid a conviction at all costs, I'd agree to whatever sum they want.

 

[Stigy]

Some of those trains have commercial guards, some don't.

The rule is that you should buy at the first opportunity.

If you were unable to buy from your origin station, then the Guard may be able to sell you a ticket, and if not you buy at your destination. The Guard is unlikely to interrogate people as to whether or not there was an opportunity as that's not their job.

I agree that it's not the job of a commercial guard to interrogate people as to why they haven't got a ticket, but it annoys me when they sell tickets in a whim without advising the customer that they should, in future buy a ticket before they start their rail journey. This is their job and not advising the customer of this is what makes situations such as this arise. The reason things appear so inconsistent is because revenue dish out PFs and report people, whereas commercial guards dish out tickets. And they all dress the same. Customers assume they're all the same.

This is partly SWT's fault as revenue should have some distinction in their uniform, much like FGW do. I guess it's all down to budgets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks Stigy. Hopefully they won't be expecting a 2nd formal interview - the 1st one was scary enough! :cry: That said, It would be helpful to explain myself properly and prove to SWT that I am not a criminal and have never done anything like this. I have definitely learned a great deal about the ins and outs of railway law this week

I'll let you know when I receive the letter, as the RPI has not yet submitted his statement it seems likely that this letter could take a while..

No worries, let us know what happens, good luck!

 

[Squaddie]

I make this trip most mondays mornings since late Sept (I am at uni in Egham)

This is the first time I have been running so late so not buy a ticket and under the impression I could buy on board

Thanks lou.

I admit that my question was driven by the thought that perhaps you were travelling daily between two ungated stations and thus your failure to buy a ticket was more than a one-off "silly mistake". But I'm happy to withdraw that idea and accept your story at face value.

 

[island]

I agree that it's not the job of a commercial guard to interrogate people as to why they haven't got a ticket, but it annoys me when they sell tickets in a whim without advising the customer that they should, in future buy a ticket before they start their rail journey. This is their job and not advising the customer of this is what makes situations such as this arise. The reason things appear so inconsistent is because revenue dish out PFs and report people, whereas commercial guards dish out tickets.

It should be noted that in the circumstances mentioned whenever a guard sells a ticket on board the ticket carries a penalty fare warning stating that if the passenger had been seen by an authorised collector it would have resulted in the issue of a penalty fare.

 

[Stigy]

It should be noted that in the circumstances mentioned whenever a guard sells a ticket on board the ticket carries a penalty fare warning stating that if the passenger had been seen by an authorised collector it would have resulted in the issue of a penalty fare.

Indeed, although this warning is only on the reverse of the ticket sold, unless the guard prints a seperate 'warning' in the form of a ticket. Either way he or she should inform the passenger what the warning is for.

 

[455driver]

I think SWT machines print the PF warning on a separate ticket which will be attached to the purchased ticket by the Perforations.

 

[Stigy]

I think SWT machines print the PF warning on a separate ticket which will be attached to the purchased ticket by the Perforations.

Only if selected by the guard, otherwise it's just the printed warning on the back of the ticket. Guards were always told to give the customer a seperate printed warning but this doesn't always happen. Unless things have changed and its automatic these days?

 

[reb0118]

Only if selected by the guard....... Guards were always told to give the customer a separate printed warning but this doesn't always happen.

Can you print this warning from any avantix?

 

[sarahj]

It should be noted that in the circumstances mentioned whenever a guard sells a ticket on board the ticket carries a penalty fare warning stating that if the passenger had been seen by an authorised collector it would have resulted in the issue of a penalty fare.

Note: Reply is to Stigy, not Island.

I used to do this quite a lot, but after hearing the 'running for a train' excuse a lot, you start to despair. Then one day I mentioned this to a passenger, who then started to scream at me, about waiting for a train, high prices, and then started to get quite personal. After that I only now do it on a few occasions.

But then, A: Our stations all have posters showing the penalty fare rules.
B You go to many stations and no matter how busy it is, no one seems to board at my door. you see them turn around.
C: If someone comes up to me to buy, I'm not going to remind them. If they see me, turn away, then find them 3 coaches up, I just might.


Oh, to do a PF warning special ticket its I444 to J666. Last did one 3 years ago, where it was promptly crumpled up and thrown on the floor.

 

[Flamingo]

I had a run-in a few weeks ago with a well-dressed passenger, obviously not short a bob or two, who had boarded a lunchtime train at Paddington (we went off an unbarriered platform). I had walked past several times before I did tickets in that carriage, but when I directly asked for their ticket (I had to ask them directly, despite my shout of "Tickets please" being enough for everybody within six rows of them to start getting their tickets out) they asked for a ticket from London to South Wales (unbarriered station). I asked why they hadn't bought in Paddington and got the "I was running for the train" (I never saw them and I was at the door for over five minutes), when I asked why they hadn't stopped me or found me in the previous 45 minutes I got told "It's your job to come and ask me for a ticket, nobody else ever has a problem with selling me a ticket on-board and I do this every week!"

I told them that it was my job to check tickets, and sell the appropriate ticket - and then sold them an Anytime Single. First time I have done this and not just given a warning in a long time, but in this case I felt it was justified.

They followed me down the train into the buffet kitchen, demanding my name and ID number, shouting at me about how rude I was and the other passengers all agreed with them (I ended up shutting the buffet door in their face when they left the kitchen), and according to other passengers they spent the rest of their journey shouting down the phone to Customer Services. As one put it (in a Northern accent) "Yon posh ****** has spent over an hour on the phone moaning about you, mind yourself lad, there's a complaint coming in".

Now I know that there will be posters on here who will say that it was disgraceful I sold them an Anytime ticket, and that they should have been given a warning. But if they were, by their own admission, doing this every week, how many warnings will they have been given in the past?

But, it illustrates why guards don't bother giving warnings, as I really could have done without the abuse (I was quite upset by it for a while afterwards - it was the second on that train, as a guy on a split ticket that wasn't valid also got very abusive) and a printed warning would have ended up crumpled on the floor.

(The complaint hasn't hit my in-tray -yet!)

 

[najaB]

I was quite upset by it for a while afterwards...

It's hard not to take it personally when you're dealing with the f**tards that call themselves customers. End of the day, you just need to remind yourself that you're following the rules and that it's them that are in the wrong.

 

[bb21]

I really don't see the point of printed warnings, if Penalty Fare stock is being used. Just point them to the back of the ticket if needed. It's a waste of paper, and as you say, a waste of time most of the time.

Do you get RSP9299/PEN stock, or is it just Bristol crews that have them?

 

[sarahj]

Don't really know what tickets we use, all i know is they get everywhere, pockets, all around the home....


Edit, found an old one from 17/10, well a shift end one. No PF warning. Stock RSP9299 4MAG414 9 8 7 6. Blurb about NCC and about validity through london

 

[LateThanNever]

Note: Reply is to Stigy, not Island.

I used to do this quite a lot, but after hearing the 'running for a train' excuse a lot, you start to despair. Then one day I mentioned this to a passenger, who then started to scream at me, about waiting for a train, high prices, and then started to get quite personal. After that I only now do it on a few occasions.

But then, A: Our stations all have posters showing the penalty fare rules.
B You go to many stations and no matter how busy it is, no one seems to board at my door. you see them turn around.
C: If someone comes up to me to buy, I'm not going to remind them. If they see me, turn away, then find them 3 coaches up, I just might.


Oh, to do a PF warning special ticket its I444 to J666. Last did one 3 years ago, where it was promptly crumpled up and thrown on the floor.

This is nuts. I feel for you. Why don't you have back up? I'm entirely against the unclear criminal prosecution passengers face for not buying at the first ( often unclear) opportunity but you should not have to suffer for pointing out the regulations. What do the management (if any) say? If the management think the regulations are enforceable for you alone they should demonstrate how they are - if not they should shut up! Simple for you (prob not for them)!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had a run-in a few weeks ago with a well-dressed passenger, obviously not short a bob or two, who had boarded a lunchtime train at Paddington (we went off an unbarriered platform). I had walked past several times before I did tickets in that carriage, but when I directly asked for their ticket (I had to ask them directly, despite my shout of "Tickets please" being enough for everybody within six rows of them to start getting their tickets out) they asked for a ticket from London to South Wales (unbarriered station). I asked why they hadn't bought in Paddington and got the "I was running for the train" (I never saw them and I was at the door for over five minutes), when I asked why they hadn't stopped me or found me in the previous 45 minutes I got told "It's your job to come and ask me for a ticket, nobody else ever has a problem with selling me a ticket on-board and I do this every week!"

I told them that it was my job to check tickets, and sell the appropriate ticket - and then sold them an Anytime Single. First time I have done this and not just given a warning in a long time, but in this case I felt it was justified.

They followed me down the train into the buffet kitchen, demanding my name and ID number, shouting at me about how rude I was and the other passengers all agreed with them (I ended up shutting the buffet door in their face when they left the kitchen), and according to other passengers they spent the rest of their journey shouting down the phone to Customer Services. As one put it (in a Northern accent) "Yon posh ****** has spent over an hour on the phone moaning about you, mind yourself lad, there's a complaint coming in".

Now I know that there will be posters on here who will say that it was disgraceful I sold them an Anytime ticket, and that they should have been given a warning. But if they were, by their own admission, doing this every week, how many warnings will they have been given in the past?

But, it illustrates why guards don't bother giving warnings, as I really could have done without the abuse (I was quite upset by it for a while afterwards - it was the second on that train, as a guy on a split ticket that wasn't valid also got very abusive) and a printed warning would have ended up crumpled on the floor.

(The complaint hasn't hit my in-tray -yet!)

But the rules are crazy. If he was posh, he should have given you a posh warning à la Dad's Army Sergeant Wilson. Otherwise I'd hope you can surely push it on to customer services without problem. Then surely he'll calm down... If not give him the name of the first MD - after all he's a Yank - doesn't that work?

 

[Flamingo]

This is nuts. I feel for you. Why don't you have back up? I'm entirely against the unclear criminal prosecution passengers face for not buying at the first ( often unclear) opportunity but you should not have to suffer for pointing out the regulations. What do the management (if any) say? If the management think the regulations are enforceable for you alone they should demonstrate how they are - if not they should shut up! Simple for you (prob not for them)!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the rules are crazy. If he was posh, he should have given you a posh warning à la Dad's Army Sergeant Wilson. Otherwise I'd hope you can surely push it on to customer services without problem. Then surely he'll calm down... If not give him the name of the first MD - after all he's a Yank - doesn't that work?

I expect to hear something. I'm not worried, I've dealt with similar. The annoying thing is when one sees them again and they say "I got a grovelling apology from your MD about you, I'm surprised you still have a job", instead of them being told they were lucky not to be taken to court.

But the point still stands, giving a warning (which I always do) is a waste of breath in most cases, my favourite was the guy who said "If that was true there would be posters up in Paddington at the platforms". What can you do with somebody like that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I really don't see the point of printed warnings, if Penalty Fare stock is being used. Just point them to the back of the ticket if needed. It's a waste of paper, and as you say, a waste of time most of the time.

Do you get RSP9299/PEN stock, or is it just Bristol crews that have them?

Not in South Wales, it is not a PF area.

 

[CC 72100]

I expect to hear something. I'm not worried, I've dealt with similar. The annoying thing is when one sees them again and they say "I got a grovelling apology from your MD about you, I'm surprised you still have a job", instead of them being told they were lucky not to be taken to court.

I feel sorry for you guys for just enforcing the rules. Customer services can be all fluffy in their responses, but if these people don't like paying then being all fluffy changes nothing.

I'd like to think that if such a complaint came in, you'd be asked briefly to confirm "was that the situation?" (selling anytime ticket because of no ticket) and that would be done as far as your involvement in the complaint is concerned, for your manager to go back to customer services and say "investigated - conclusion is that correct policy was applied" and that put to the "customer". And if they don't like it... well i'm sure Pad - South Wales HSTs aren't then going to empty overnight.

I however do know that things don't work like that on the railway. "Customer is always right" is very much prevalent from what I read on here.