Silly silly me

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by Ashlaarr, 12 Mar 2017.

  1. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Established Member

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    Plus TIL will probably be paid by ATW on a scale depending on how much work they do on a particular case, and it will bump up the "administrative disposal" cost.
    Quid's in all round.
    ATW do seem to be tightening up on ticketless travel though, enforcing standard conditions of travel and all that.
     
    Last edited: 5 Aug 2017
  2. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    This is the problem. I feel TIL are increasing the administrative work involved so they can bump up their costs, which they charge to ATW and thus a higher administrative settlement to the passenger. Has to be something wrong with them doing that.

    I will check to see if their approach is in line with ATW policy or not. I doubt it is.
     
  3. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    There's an easy way for people to avoid these costs. A simple matter of buying a ticket for the whole journey.
     
  4. Clipper

    Clipper New Member

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    If the passenger is not happy with the level of costs they could always have their day in court, the cost of which would be considerably more.

    Lower admin fees would be less of a deterrent?

    Anyway, I'm glad the OP got the result he was hoping for.
     
  5. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    Buying a ticket at your origin station will aid enormously as the amount of people in South Wales who buy tickets when challenged from other places to their destinations must mean they get lost on the way home and end up at the wrong town. Just think they can look at their ticket and they"ll remember where to go home to!

    It will help South Wales Poice to as every Sunday there are concerned realities going to the local Nick in the Valleys with the same story about their relative going to Cardiff on the free train service but haven't come back.:D
     
  6. Fare-Cop

    Fare-Cop Member

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    What was the answer to your enquiry?
     
  7. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    ATW Arriva Trains Wales Revenue Enforcement Policy states: "Customers can make genuine mistakes. If this is the first time a customer has been identified within this process they should not normally be taken to prosecution and may be offered an administrative settlement. The exception to this is if there is an attempted fraud or other aggravating circumstance.

    Prosecution will be the last course of action. There are some areas where prosecution is unavoidable.

    Fraud
    Giving false personal details
    Knowingly claiming a short journey
    Repeat offender e.g. Travelling without a ticket on more than one occasion"


    I do not personally feel that Transport Investigations are adhering to this as often as they should be. Though I suppose short faring would be classed an aggravating circumstance and knowingly claiming a short journey is listed above.
     
    Last edited: 9 Aug 2017
  8. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    The highlighted applies in this case.
     
  9. Ashlaarr

    Ashlaarr Member

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    If I were you mate I'd wait for the initial reply from TIL and see what they say, don't stress over it. They use I bullying tactic to scare you. Wait for the reply, if they say they have enough evidence to prosecute then email ATW, I didn't hear anything back from ATW for about 10 days, then I had an email off them saying they would accept an administrative settlement and TIL would be in touch with me to arrange payment.

    It's beyond me why TIL go around the who situation the long way. They are just making more work for themselves for the sake of it!! I wrote about 4 letters before I got to this stage and being able to settle. Don't stress.
     
    Last edited: 12 Aug 2017
  10. baz962

    baz962 Member

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    While reading these posts I was wondering what if you gave a false name/address and after that I read this answer however how can they prosecute if they do not have your details
     
  11. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    If someone gives a fake address they can't do anything unless they were to then discover the true identity of the offender, which is not easy normally.
     
  12. Fare-Cop

    Fare-Cop Member

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    I didn't think it was the policy of this forum to encourage offenders to commit another offence, but in any case it is a great deal easier to identify people these days than many seem to believe.

    Giving false details and being found out makes the matter very much more serious as a great many people find to their cost.

    For starters, it virtually guarantees prosecution when a settlement might otherwise be agreed in many cases.
     
  13. baz962

    baz962 Member

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    When I asked It was not in any way to encourage and neither would I ever fare dodge I just wondered what steps they take to find out just as a matter of interest. The one and only time I came close was one of those cases due to ignorance. I found out last year that the tickets you buy on my toc/line anyway are ok upto 4am the next day but a couple of years before that I had gone over a bit while on a night out in london and for some reason I had mistakenly thought you were ok until 6 am and I told the ticket man on the train that. luckily he just charged me a new ticket but if he had threatened to prosecute I may have been tempted to give false details as 1. I am honest 2. was a genuine mistake and 3. A first (and only) offence and although I personally cannot abide fare dodgers or thieves, lets face it that is basically what it is at the same time I dont like bullying people who might go overboard for genuine oversights.
     
  14. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Fare-cop, you say it is a great deal easier to identify people these days than many seem to believe. How is it so easy?
     
  15. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    With apologies to Fare-cop if I've misunderstood his post, but I took it to mean that it's a lot harder to get away with giving false details in the first place, rather than tracking them down after the fact.
     
  16. Sussex Guy

    Sussex Guy Member

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    I suspect in many cases staff know from the look of the person that they are unlikely to give correct details and simply charge what they should have paid anyway with a warning that they are likely to be prosecuted if they try it again etc.
     
  17. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    I am not so sure. My understanding is that a passenger is required to give their name and address under certain circumstances. I do not think that the rail staff have the power to detain them once they have given their name and address and the customer is under no duty to hang around while they check out this information. So if a customer has given a name and address (it could be the correct one) by the time the staff realise it is false then the passenger may have taken off already. Also, there is every chance that a customer could give correct details and these could come back as not being able to be checked out. In such a circumstance what else can a customer do other then saying "tough, I've given you my correct details."
     
  18. island

    island Established Member

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    Unless there is BTP standing around it is quite tricky.
     
  19. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    To quote the Byelaws:
    And the Regulation of Railways Act:
    It is pretty clear that the requirement is to give your valid and correct address and that the officer of the railway is entitled to check if the name and address given are, in fact, correct. I think it would be quite difficult to argue otherwise.

    However, as island says, in practice it is difficult/impossible for a RPI to enforce the power of detention unless BTP are in attendance.
     
    Last edited: 13 Aug 2017
  20. Ashlaarr

    Ashlaarr Member

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    I would like to point out, a friend of mine traveled on the same evening, we both got stopped and he refused to give out any identification, when ask for ID he said he was not carrying any.
    A different officer went through the same questions as he did with me but he did not have a body camera as did the one that was questioning me.

    He has not heard anything from TIL or ATW.
     

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