Simple Rules to Avoid Hassle

[IanD]

End of the day its not rocket science folks, you must buy the correct ticket at the earliest (not when it's convenient for you, I can not stress this bit enough) opportunity.

I'm travelling to Scotland next April. The earliest opportunity for me to buy tickets is right now. However, I'm going to wait until a time more convenient to me when I can get cheaper tickets.

 

[4SRKT]

Until someone in the railway (who actually has the influence do something about it) realises that the NRCoC are just too complex for the casual passenger to quickly digest through simple reading - if they weren't complex, half the topics on this board wouldn't be started - people are going to get ensnared and either end up paying more than they need through penalties or being on the first step towards a prosecution.

Its really is too much to expect the average casual passenger to understand everything actually in and implied by the NRCoC, especially when there's regional / TOC variations in [for example] whether or not penalty fares apply, whether or not they will be able to buy on board, whether or not they can upgrade on the train, when peak and off-peak start and finish... More than anything else, the railway needs a one-rule-fits all approach for each of these (and many other) situations. Of course, there will be those who say one-rule-fits-all would be too difficult / expensive / inconvenient to implement across the entire network, and whilst those sorts of views prevail it suits the railway to do nothing and raise additional revenue by snag the innocent but maybe niave passenger.

I agree. Complex Ts & Cs are IMHO quite deliberate to try to ensnare people. Has anyone seen the very amusing South Park satire on complex Ts & Cs and people not reading them, called 'The Human CentiPad'?

 

[ainsworth74]

Until someone in the railway (who actually has the influence do something about it) realises that the NRCoC are just too complex for the casual passenger to quickly digest through simple reading

Really? You're suggesting that most passengers couldn't understand the two page introduction that lists the passengers rights and obligations in pretty easy and digestible language. If all passengers took the five minutes needed to read that introduction we'd have far fewer problems. Is the NRCoC in it's entirety complex? Yes. Are the most important pieces of information complex? No, I don't think so.

You can find the NRCoC here and the introduction starts from page 3.

 

[4SRKT]

Really? You're suggesting that most passengers couldn't understand the two page introduction that lists the passengers rights and obligations in pretty easy and digestible language. If all passengers took the five minutes needed to read that introduction we'd have far fewer problems. Is the NRCoC in it's entirety complex? Yes. Are the most important pieces of information complex? No, I don't think so.

You can find the NRCoC here and the introduction starts from page 3.

I think it's not just about complexity but that I suspect most people wanting to use a train want to regard it as a mundane and unremarkable thing, not something you should have to read any sort of legal document before doing so. Certainly I don't want to do this.

 

[Flamingo]

90% of irregularities we come across are wrong advance tickets, missing railcards, or no tickets at all.

None of these require the NRCoC to understand them:
1. Advance tickets - written on ticket "Booked Train Only", and explained to passenger at time of purchase - always!
2. Missing railcard - passenger signs to agree to carry railcard when travelling with a discounted ticket - again, easy.
3. No ticket at all when an opportunity to buy was available - again, who thinks that the railway is free? It hasn't been for nearly 200 years, it didn't become so overnight.

Complaints about not wanting to read conditions before travelling are just so much tripe. The people who say that are usually fully aware of when they are entitled to compensation under the same NRCoC.

 

[Brucey]

Those suggesting that every passenger should read the NRCoC, have you ever read the Tesco Terms & Conditions when you do your shopping online? Of course you haven't. Why would you?

 

[Skymonster]

Really? You're suggesting that most passengers couldn't understand the two page introduction that lists the passengers rights and obligations in pretty easy and digestible language. If all passengers took the five minutes needed to read that introduction we'd have far fewer problems. Is the NRCoC in it's entirety complex? Yes. Are the most important pieces of information complex? No, I don't think so.

You can find the NRCoC here and the introduction starts from page 3.

And the infamous introduction to which you refer says:

"This includes making these Conditions and the Byelaws available..." / "You must... Keep to the applicable bylaws"... These two statements alone demonstrate that reading and understanding not only the introduction, and indeed not all of the NRCoC, is sufficient to keep a passenger out of trouble.

Andy

 

[MikeWh]

Just to get to the heart of the matter, the Railway has required people to buy tickets for travel since the 19th century, and has checked tickets from passengers leaving for the same period (approaching 200 years now).

Anyone saying they didn't think they needed a ticket, or didn't think it would be checked on the way out is being a bit disingenuous, or probably should not be allowed out on their own.

Not entirely true. About 40 years ago they tried the open stations concept where all tickets were checked on the train. On a long distance East Coast service the tickets were retained by the inspector after the last stop before London, unless the ticket would still be required for onward travel. I vividly remember coming back from Newcastle as a kid and my Dad having to ask for the tickets back because he hadn't spotted that we would still need them.

 

[hluraven]

Those suggesting that every passenger should read the NRCoC, have you ever read the Tesco Terms & Conditions when you do your shopping online? Of course you haven't. Why would you?

I wouldn't use that as an excuse if I walked out of Tesco's without paying though.

 

[ainsworth74]

And the infamous introduction to which you refer says:

"This includes making these Conditions and the Byelaws available..." / "You must... Keep to the applicable bylaws"... These two statements alone demonstrate that reading and understanding not only the introduction, and indeed not all of the NRCoC, is sufficient to keep a passenger out of trouble.

The Byelaw that most people fall foul of (as seen in a couple of recent threads here) is 18:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

In the introduction to the NRCoC there are the following passages:

Have a valid ticket or tickets for the whole of your journey, at the time you want to travel and on the route and trains you want to use. Unless otherwise indicated, you must purchase your ticket before boarding the train you intend to use.

Keep your ticket safe. It is your ticket, not the receipt for it, which gives you the right to travel. Do not lose, damage or attempt to alter your ticket.

Show and, if asked by a member of Train Company staff, hand over your ticket and any associated Railcard/photocard for inspection

So I'd say that whilst it would be a good idea to read the Byelaws, if the passenger has read the introduction the NRCoC and follows the instructions there they will be unlikely to fall foul of the one Byelaw that they are most likely to do so.

Are there any other Byelaws that you feel a passengers is likely to fall foul of in their everyday travel that they aren't warned about in the NRCoC? I'm going to be honest here I think it's a fairly flimsy argument that the railway does not make it clear what it expects of it's passengers (namely that they have a valid ticket and that it is made available for inspection on demand). The information that's needed to keep 99% of passengers out of trouble is available without much difficulty and is often common sense anyway.

 

[4SRKT]

It's common sense for sure, but expecting the public to read the NRCoC is wishful thinking.

 

[MKB]

1. If you can buy a ticket before bording, DO

I would dispute that this is "simple".

At Nuneaton, the ticket office is regularly closed during posted opening hours. The only ticket machine takes about 2 minutes just to dispense the 9 coupons issued for the typical return journey for two people, with the inevitable lengthy lines.

My routine now is to book online, and make a special trip to the station (6 mile round trip) to pick up any future outstanding tickets. Usually, that's about 4 to 8 trips' worth, and I tend to tie up the machine for about 20 minutes - and that this can be much longer when I need to give way to others waiting behind me. It's a most unsatisfactory state of affairs.

Oh for the days when tickets were posted out free of charge up to 3 working days before travel and TOCs would sort things out if tickets got lost in the post.

 

[rdwarr]

Those suggesting that every passenger should read the NRCoC, have you ever read the Tesco Terms & Conditions when you do your shopping online? Of course you haven't. Why would you?

To find out exactly what they do with your Clubcard data.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

It's common sense for sure, but expecting the public to read the NRCoC is wishful thinking.

It's surprising how many don't read the terms, small print etc etc, when signing agreements registration forms etc etc. Tick the box online 'I have read.....' probably never even opened the page!!
Trading Standards advise you MUST read terms /conditions etc carefully before agreeing or signing anything!! (2 hours later!!)
You automatically agree to NRCoC by using a Rail ticket! Suppose if you bought a ticket and did not agree to NRCoC you could return it directly for a full refund!!

 

[SS4]

Everyone should know what they sign up to. As Flamingo pointed out, people are very quick to know their rights under the NRCoC but oddly forget their responsibilities.

Those suggesting that every passenger should read the NRCoC, have you ever read the Tesco Terms & Conditions when you do your shopping online? Of course you haven't. Why would you?

Yes I have. Thus I know:

• A clubcard or e-clubcard is mandatory to shop online (condition 5)
• Tesco is not liable if your e-coupon fails for whatever reason after despatch, even if their system fails to recognise it (6,9)
• That they can cancel e-coupons without notice at any time (6,10)
• You may only have one hard copy of any page and only store it on disc and not externally (10)
• You are financially liable for Tesco's costs if a court finds you guilty based on the claim of them or a third party for "a reasonable" sum which is not defined (11)
• However, Tesco is not liable "to you/or any third party for any consequential or incidental damages (including but not limited to loss of revenue, loss of profits, loss of anticipated savings, wasted expenditure, loss of privacy and loss of data) or any other indirect, special or punitive damages whatsoever that arise out of or are related to the Tesco.com Site." This is despite the condition above saying you'd be liable if it were the other way round... (14)
• Tesco may close your account immediately at their "reasonable discretion" (12)
• English law applies even if you're in Scotland (17)
• You may not transfer your rights (more like obligations!) (misc)
• Tesco may take action whenever they like if you're suspected of breaching the terms and conditions.

Onto the Clubcard terms (mandatory under condition 5 if you remember)

• Tesco may exclude any product from the clubcard scheme without notice (23)
• Tesco may remove any points if they think it was awarded in error. This condition overrules anything staff may have told you (27)
• Points have no value until the end of a collection period (28)
• Clubcard to help us improve our service to you and to make our communications more relevant. (main privacy policy)

 

[Clip]

Just as a slight OT with regards to keeping hold of your ticket for a bit check this post out
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1137804&postcount=669

In the light rail section of this forum. Then the 4th one along annd look what it says on the bin.

 

[b0b]

One important thing:

If the "man on the platform" / "guard" shows discretion, or relaxes ticket conditions etc, make sure you get it in writing!

 

[Monty]

Until someone in the railway (who actually has the influence do something about it) realises that the NRCoC are just too complex for the casual passenger to quickly digest through simple reading - if they weren't complex, half the topics on this board wouldn't be started - people are going to get ensnared and either end up paying more than they need through penalties or being on the first step towards a prosecution.

Its really is too much to expect the average casual passenger to understand everything actually in and implied by the NRCoC, especially when there's regional / TOC variations in [for example] whether or not penalty fares apply, whether or not they will be able to buy on board, whether or not they can upgrade on the train, when peak and off-peak start and finish... More than anything else, the railway needs a one-rule-fits all approach for each of these (and many other) situations. Of course, there will be those who say one-rule-fits-all would be too difficult / expensive / inconvenient to implement across the entire network, and whilst those sorts of views prevail it suits the railway to do nothing and raise additional revenue by snag the innocent but maybe niave passenger.

With respect, the NRCoC are no more complex than any terms of conditions you have with buying a microwave oven, television or your monthly shop at the supermarket. infact I like to think we do one better than the highstreet as the publication is written in plain English and can be obtained with relative ease (my local station will hand them out on request).

No one is forcing you to read it nor is it mandatory you read it before travelling. But remember it's not a burden informing you of your obligations, it also informs you of your rights. When a transaction is made both the vendor and the customer are under certain obligations but both parties have rights, and this is what the NRCoC does in the end, it protects both sides.

I'm travelling to Scotland next April. The earliest opportunity for me to buy tickets is right now. However, I'm going to wait until a time more convenient to me when I can get cheaper tickets.

Earliest opportunity for most is on the day of travel from the moment they enter the station premises. So it's not applicable to you in this case. :P Hope you get that cheaper fare though!

 

[Flamingo]

For the first time ever I bought something from Tesco online today. The asked for my clubcard number, I ticked(truthfully) no clubcard, and the order went through.

I very rarely shop at Tesco's. M&S or Waitrose usually
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not entirely true. About 40 years ago they tried the open stations concept where all tickets were checked on the train. On a long distance East Coast service the tickets were retained by the inspector after the last stop before London, unless the ticket would still be required for onward travel. I vividly remember coming back from Newcastle as a kid and my Dad having to ask for the tickets back because he hadn't spotted that we would still need them.

Well, 40 years ago is quite a time ago, I'm sure most passengers I come across have been on a train at least once since then

 

[bb21]

I would dispute that this is "simple".

At Nuneaton, the ticket office is regularly closed during posted opening hours. The only ticket machine takes about 2 minutes just to dispense the 9 coupons issued for the typical return journey for two people, with the inevitable lengthy lines.

My routine now is to book online, and make a special trip to the station (6 mile round trip) to pick up any future outstanding tickets. Usually, that's about 4 to 8 trips' worth, and I tend to tie up the machine for about 20 minutes - and that this can be much longer when I need to give way to others waiting behind me. It's a most unsatisfactory state of affairs.

Oh for the days when tickets were posted out free of charge up to 3 working days before travel and TOCs would sort things out if tickets got lost in the post.

I can't help but feel there is some exaggeration in here. 20 minutes? That is a very long time. Last time I collected in bulk from an S&B machine (the same ones as the machine at Nuneaton), it took me less than 15 minutes to collect 20 bookings, all with separate reference numbers and have 4-6 coupons each.

Although you cannot have tickets for travel within 3 days posted out, I believe LM website still offers free postage if you are travelling more than 7 days away.

 

[MKB]

I can't help but feel there is some exaggeration in here. 20 minutes? That is a very long time. Last time I collected in bulk from an S&B machine (the same ones as the machine at Nuneaton), it took me less than 15 minutes to collect 20 bookings, all with separate reference numbers and have 4-6 coupons each.

Although you cannot have tickets for travel within 3 days posted out, I believe LM website still offers free postage if you are travelling more than 7 days away.

No, there's no exaggeration, nor rounding. I've timed it. It takes at least 30 seconds to get the credit card accepted, enter the booking reference and wait for the reservation to be found. Then it takes at least 120 seconds to print the 9 coupons (2 outbound + 2 reservations + 2 returns + 2 reservations + 1 collection receipt). Multiply that by 8 bookings and that's your 20 minutes gone, if you can have continued access to the machine. If I've got multiple bookings, I try to go down in the evening when the booking office is quiet.

I tried to collect a single Virgin booking (7 coupons) from Bournville station recently and the TVM is on the platform. It was exactly 120 seconds before my train was due, so I thought I had time as the trains to Birmingham are nearly always at least a minute or two late. Sod's law, however, applied, and the train came in bang on time. I got my first 6 coupons and then had to dart on board and abandon the collection receipt 130 seconds after starting the process.

On the other hand, when I can pick up tickets at Coventry, it takes about 40 seconds total to retrieve a 9-coupon booking. And the queuing time to get to a machine is usually nothing and never more than a couple of minutes (but that may be down to the fact I tend to be there when it's not busy).

As for LM postage, I started a thread on here some while ago about LM refusing to accept their obligations when tickets are lost in the post. While all the legal advice I received was that LM were in the wrong, the reality was that it was not worth the time and effort to pursue, so I simple choose not to buy from their website unless they have a sale on.

 

[ReverendFozz]

Daft question here...

What do you do if you board a train at an unmanned station with no ticket machines, then the guard doesnt come round and you depart at a station with no facilities, I know the chances of that is probably slim to none most of the time, but what would people do in that situation?

 

[island]

At least one person has said he would post the TOC a cheque. Personally, when this happened to me on one occasion, I considered that the TOC has offered me no opportunity to pay and did not feel obliged to take the matter further.

 

[bb21]

No, there's no exaggeration, nor rounding. I've timed it. It takes at least 30 seconds to get the credit card accepted, enter the booking reference and wait for the reservation to be found. Then it takes at least 120 seconds to print the 9 coupons (2 outbound + 2 reservations + 2 returns + 2 reservations + 1 collection receipt). Multiply that by 8 bookings and that's your 20 minutes gone, if you can have continued access to the machine. If I've got multiple bookings, I try to go down in the evening when the booking office is quiet.

I tried to collect a single Virgin booking (7 coupons) from Bournville station recently and the TVM is on the platform. It was exactly 120 seconds before my train was due, so I thought I had time as the trains to Birmingham are nearly always at least a minute or two late. Sod's law, however, applied, and the train came in bang on time. I got my first 6 coupons and then had to dart on board and abandon the collection receipt 130 seconds after starting the process.

I must admit that I am rather shocked by this. They appear to be very slow. It might be worth contacting LM about it, especially if it is happening to LM-branded machines everywhere.

As for LM postage, I started a thread on here some while ago about LM refusing to accept their obligations when tickets are lost in the post. While all the legal advice I received was that LM were in the wrong, the reality was that it was not worth the time and effort to pursue, so I simple choose not to buy from their website unless they have a sale on.

I haven't really been in such a situation with LM so cannot comment. An alternative is Southern, who I found to be rather helpful on both occasions when my tickets went AWOL in the post.

 

[Monty]

Daft question here...

What do you do if you board a train at an unmanned station with no ticket machines, then the guard doesnt come round and you depart at a station with no facilities, I know the chances of that is probably slim to none most of the time, but what would people do in that situation?

You should really try and at least attempt to approach the guard yourself, however if he is unable to sell you with a ticket I agree with Island. When you arrive at your destination where there are no ticketing facilities it's the company's problem. As they have not presented you with an opportunity to pay for your journey.

 

[sheff1]

End of the day its not rocket science folks, you must buy the correct ticket at the earliest (not when it's convenient for you, I can not stress this bit enough) opportunity.

It might not be rocket science, but your statement is not correct.

 

[Monty]

It might not be rocket science, but your statement is not correct.

How so?

 

[sheff1]

Leaving aside that the earliest opportunity may be well before you are intending to board a train, how about an operator like Hull Trains ? I could join a lengthy queue at Kings Cross (either at the ticket office or TVM) but it is far more convenient for me to board the train ticketless and make myself comfortable.

'Must buy the correct ticket at the earliest opportunity' is therefore an over simplification, although I do understand the point you were wanting to make.

 

[WelshBluebird]

How so?

Well for one, technically the "earliest opportunity" may be via a website several days before you travel!
Now obviously we know that you certainly do not have to resort to using websites to buy a ticket if your station has no means to buy a ticket, but stating that you must buy at the earliest opportunity may make people believe they have to.

Plus, I severally doubt that you would have to severally delay yourself at an interchange station in order to buy a ticket if that is your first opportunity.

You should really try and at least attempt to approach the guard yourself.

As I say every time someone suggests this, I have a mental image of a full pacer / sprinter with everyone rushing to the back cab.
So based on that, I would say that you don't have to try to find the guard. Because if you did, then on many lines it would be total chaos!

 

[Monty]

A bit of common sense please, if you are unable to get through the train because it's packed there is not alot you can do about it. And I have explained earlier advance booking/online ticketing doesn't really apply as the company should provide you with facilities to purchase a ticket on the day, and if they do it should be the earliest opportunity, ie the ticket office and so on. I won't go into it any further as I've explained the process if you are unable to get a ticket once already.

Sheff1, you are quite right it is a simplified statement and only applies to operators with buy before you board policies. If Hull trains allow you pay on train then you are all set to do it to your hearts content. I guess I can't win I either provide an overly complicated statements or simplified ones.

I maintain my previous statement though, when travelling on a service within a penalty fare area follow my advice and you can't go wrong and will avoid hassle which is what I thought this thread was about.