Single Leg pricing for some journeys to/from King's Cross give passengers a better deal on fares

Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
48,771
Location
Yorkshire
I'll offer a recent experience in Spain, to alert people to the dangers of removing "Break of Journey". Having travelled in France on local trains, stopping off here and there (on the same day), I then purchased a ticket from Port Bou to Barcelona, thinking that the same would apply in Spain. The idea was to stop for lunch and continue onward.

The station chosen for the lunch break had unmanned barriers. My attempt to pass through with a ticket to Barcelona (further along the line) was rejected. I managed to attract the attention of the clerk in the ticket office, who agreed to let me through the barriers but telling me it was not permitted. He told me that he was going off duty but he would inform the next employee to let me back in. When I returned after lunch, once again my ticket did not open the barrier. The new clerk behind the window in the ticket office told me that I could not enter but must buy a new ticket from there to Barcelona. Luckily the distance and cost from there to Barcelona was small. She told me that she was not allowed to let me through the barrier with my Barcelona ticket.

If Break of Journey rights are removed in the UK that will likely bring to an end starting or ending short, having a break for lunch etc. and catching a later train, walking between stations and so on. A single ticket of any kind will simply be point to point. They'll call it "simplification of the rules". The time validity can be restricted also, so that once a ticket is purchased the journey must be completed for example within two hours.

Be careful what you wish for.
I agree these are serious concerns.

However in this case I suspect that break of journey is not being prevented by itself, but the issue is that tickets are only valid for one day (and for breaking for one night if appropriate and resuming the following day), which mean that people who stop off for a few days en route will in future need to purchase a combination of tickets. In other words, the rail industry is encouraging the use of "split ticketing".
 

E759

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2017
Messages
573
Location
Sussex
...chances are nobody would be checking it in August bank holiday week...
Incorrect, enforcement is carried out in active zones whatever the day of week or time of year. I see Penalty Notices all the time in Horsham where people gamble with that assumption or simply don't read or can't comprehend the restriction on the Zone plates.
 

Cdd89

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
50
- 10% more than an anytime single
That would provide the flexibility that people would like, yes at a cost but the current open returns generally have an extra cost in using them.
I can understand the rationale of paying a surcharge for full BoJ flexibility, but the most common use I have of the BoJ rules is starting or ending short, which I expect is quite a common use. I think the railway would have some pretty dissatisfied customers if the right even to start or end short were removed from walk-up tickets without paying a further surcharge.
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
1,951
I can understand the rationale of paying a surcharge for full BoJ flexibility, but the most common use I have of the BoJ rules is starting or ending short, which I expect is quite a common use. I think the railway would have some pretty dissatisfied customers if the right even to start or end short were removed from walk-up tickets without paying a further surcharge.
Moving to singles shouldn't affect starting or stopping short, short non-overnight breaks or having a reasonable choice of routes. I reckon I'll need to break at York for an hour on Edinburgh-London with the new seats. Feels slightly different from coming back via a week-long tour of Oxford, Birmingham Liverpool and Glasgow.
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
3,602
No BoJ and how long before “train held up by unwell passenger who couldn’t afford to risk getting off early”
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
48,771
Location
Yorkshire
No BoJ and how long before “train held up by unwell passenger who couldn’t afford to risk getting off early”
It is already the case that some tickets do not allow BOJ (which I deplore) however there is no evidence that I am aware of that BOJ itself is under threat by this trial, just the extent of it that is under threat, which is a different thing really.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
4,808
Location
Sheffield
I'll offer a recent experience in Spain, to alert people to the dangers of removing "Break of Journey"....

Be careful what you wish for.
Quite. Closer to home, I needed to travel from Portadown to Belfast but stopping off in Lurgan for three or four hours. A single from Portadown to Belfast is £9, but BoJ is not allowed on NI Railways so the cost to me was £3.40 to Lurgan and then £7.60 from there to Belfast - total £11. OK £2 is not a lot in itself but is a 22% 'mark up' on the through fare.

Back on the ECML, London to Edinburgh Super Off Peak fares are £73.70 single/£147.40 return. The Super Off Peak fares to Newcastle are £70.85/£141.70. If someone wants to break a journey to/from Edinburgh at Newcastle, and BoJ on the through ticket was not allowed, an additional Newcastle to Edinburgh Off Peak return at £56.10 (any permitted) or £44.15 (TOC specific) would be needed*, putting the cost of the most flexible off peak option for the overall return journey up to £197.80 - a 34% 'mark up', which makes the NI 22% look quite reasonable.

* The Off Peak singles NCL-EDB are £55.10/£43.10. Even if they were to be reduced to half the return that would still mean the most flexible off peak cost for a London- NCL (break)-EDB single journey would be 34% higher than the through fare if BoJ on the latter was disallowed.

It is all very well posters saying "it doesn't affect me so get rid of it" but I rather suspect they would be less dismissive if the fare for one of their normal journeys suddenly went up by 34%.
 
Last edited:

Llandudno

Member
Joined
25 Dec 2014
Messages
504
I'll offer a recent experience in Spain, to alert people to the dangers of removing "Break of Journey". Having travelled in France on local trains, stopping off here and there (on the same day), I then purchased a ticket from Port Bou to Barcelona, thinking that the same would apply in Spain. The idea was to stop for lunch and continue onward.

The station chosen for the lunch break had unmanned barriers. My attempt to pass through with a ticket to Barcelona (further along the line) was rejected. I managed to attract the attention of the clerk in the ticket office, who agreed to let me through the barriers but telling me it was not permitted. He told me that he was going off duty but he would inform the next employee to let me back in. When I returned after lunch, once again my ticket did not open the barrier. The new clerk behind the window in the ticket office told me that I could not enter but must buy a new ticket from there to Barcelona. Luckily the distance and cost from there to Barcelona was small. She told me that she was not allowed to let me through the barrier with my Barcelona ticket.

If Break of Journey rights are removed in the UK that will likely bring to an end starting or ending short, having a break for lunch etc. and catching a later train, walking between stations and so on. A single ticket of any kind will simply be point to point. They'll call it "simplification of the rules". The time validity can be restricted also, so that once a ticket is purchased the journey must be completed for example within two hours.

Be careful what you wish for.
Yes, and ending Break of Journey validity would affect local pubs and micropubs near or actually on stations!

Imagine not being able to break your journey at York!
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
4,512
Yes, and ending Break of Journey validity would affect local pubs and micropubs near or actually on stations!

Imagine not being able to break your journey at York!
But this BoJ hasn’t been suggested by anyone.
there is no evidence that I am aware of that BOJ itself is under threat by this trial, just the extent of it that is under threat, which is a different thing really.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
54,329
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
But this BoJ hasn’t been suggested by anyone.
I don't think it'll be an issue here but there are TOCs who bar BoJ on singles and this will need addressing particularly now there is evidence of staff (at Clapham Jn) not letting people go to the shops between trains, which is mind numbingly idiotic.

Not even airlines stop you leaving the airport between connections if there's time!
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
4,512
Not even airlines stop you leaving the airport between connections if there's time!
I think that's a ridiculous claim. For most flights booked as through tickets leaving the airport is just not an option unless at the outset you have only been booked to the connecting point and are prepared to go through the check in process a second time.

Oh, and try stopping short to try and save money and see how airlines like that.
 

Joe Paxton

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2017
Messages
1,869
I don't think it'll be an issue here but there are TOCs who bar BoJ on singles and this will need addressing particularly now there is evidence of staff (at Clapham Jn) not letting people go to the shops between trains, which is mind numbingly idiotic.
When you say there is evidence of this at Clapham Jn, do you just mean this has happened to you? If so, how many times?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
54,329
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
I think that's a ridiculous claim. For most flights booked as through tickets leaving the airport is just not an option unless at the outset you have only been booked to the connecting point and are prepared to go through the check in process a second time.
False. You get a separate boarding card for the second flight and can, provided you are entitled to enter the country, pop out and back in without collecting bags. Schiphol, and other airports, actually run organised tours for such people. I have done it myself on a KLM through booking.

They don't like you stopping short to save money, but that's not the BoJ use case I'm talking about. As long as you actually take the second flight they don't mind.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
48,771
Location
Yorkshire
When you say there is evidence of this at Clapham Jn, do you just mean this has happened to you? If so, how many times?
Clapham Junction staff are notorious for this sort of thing and problems have been reported there; here are a few examples:
Last week I was travelling on the return portion of a Chester to Fleet Off Peak Return and wished to break my journey at Clapham Junction, resuming a couple of days later (still well before the expiry date on the ticket). I had previously checked the Fares & Ticketing Guide to make sure this was allowed.

Knowing that my ticket wouldn't activate the barriers I approached the SWT gateline assistant to be let through. The assistant at first claimed BOJ wasn't allowed at all on the ticket then conceded that it was but had to be resumed on the same day. ...
... most barrier staff at Clapham [Junction] won't allow people to pass the barrier
So its not just myself who has been denied access to use station facilities at Clapham Junction the other side of the gateline when I've been changing trains at Clapham Junction.....
While I do share concerns about any potential restrictions to our right to a break of journey, I can only reiterate that there does not appear to be any issue specifically related to this trial, at least not when it comes to breaking on the same day and/or starting/finishing 'short'. I suggest another thread be created to discuss break of journey issues further if anyone has any further concerns in this area.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
54,329
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
Where it relates to the trial is more in relation to what might happen if its outcome is successful, e.g. for all TOCs simply deleting the Off Peak Returns and repricing the Off Peak Singles to half the former Return price. If this was done, there are a number of TOCs (e.g. LNR and VTWC) where BoJ would not be permitted at all on a vast swathe of flows.
 

FQTV

Member
Joined
27 Apr 2012
Messages
831
I think that's a ridiculous claim. For most flights booked as through tickets leaving the airport is just not an option unless at the outset you have only been booked to the connecting point and are prepared to go through the check in process a second time.
I’m selectively quoting for clarity, but that’s completely and utterly incorrect.

Further, if it’s indicative of how senior folks at LNER think that airline systems work, it raises basic concerns about how the local rail industry from within its own ranks can effectively compete with global aviation.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
14,981
Location
Manchester
I just want to roll up to a station and pay a fare that is competive with driving without having to commit to a specific train weeks in advance.
I wouldn't bother travelling long-distance in Great Britain, then...
Further, if it’s indicative of how senior folks at LNER think that airline systems work, it raises basic concerns about how the local rail industry from within its own ranks can effectively compete with global aviation.
On routes wbere there's a comprehensive flight schedule, LNER do not 'effectively compete' with the airlines, though. They're merely nibbling a little bit off their edges.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
14,981
Location
Manchester
False. You get a separate boarding card for the second flight and can, provided you are entitled to enter the country, pop out and back in without collecting bags. Schiphol, and other airports, actually run organised tours for such people. I have done it myself on a KLM through booking.

They don't like you stopping short to save money, but that's not the BoJ use case I'm talking about. As long as you actually take the second flight they don't mind.
In the past, the fact you're permitted to stop off on your through booking in Ireland or Iceland has actually been sold as a specific benefit of the tickets in airline marketing.
 

Wallsendmag

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2014
Messages
2,160
Location
Wallsend or somewhere on the ECML
I’m selectively quoting for clarity, but that’s completely and utterly incorrect.

Further, if it’s indicative of how senior folks at LNER think that airline systems work, it raises basic concerns about how the local rail industry from within its own ranks can effectively compete with global aviation.
I hardly think Haywain or myself qualify as senior people at LNER unless you are talking in years ;)
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
1,951
I’m selectively quoting for clarity, but that’s completely and utterly incorrect.

Further, if it’s indicative of how senior folks at LNER think that airline systems work, it raises basic concerns about how the local rail industry from within its own ranks can effectively compete with global aviation.
For most journeys you will struggle to get anything more than a five or six hour layover on a normal ticket. Even if you do take advantage of that you will potentially take 20 minutes to get off the plane and onto the street, or an hour or more if there's customs and immigration. There's then half an hour into the city and half an hour back, followed by clearing security and getting to your gate ahead of the flight. You might just fit in lunch, and it's probably not worth the hassle.

Certainly you can book more complex multi-city itineraries with overnight stays for minimal extra cost, but that's essentially a separate product with advance booking. There's nothing wrong with rail offering tickets like that. Making it part of the walk-up offering just makes the walk-up tickets more complex for customers to understand, and more difficult for operators to price and vend, and ultimately leads to normal passengers paying more for their trips.
 

Wallsendmag

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2014
Messages
2,160
Location
Wallsend or somewhere on the ECML
I think the last scenario is more like the plans LNER have remember you can now buy Advance on the day. Add this to reduced booking horizons currently planned to decrease even further and Advance will come into play for many journeys
 

kieron

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2012
Messages
2,487
Location
Connah's Quay
If this was done, there are a number of TOCs (e.g. LNR and VTWC) where BoJ would not be permitted at all on a vast swathe of flows.
I don't think WMT or VT will drop their anytime tickets, meaning there will still be some tickets which allow unrestricted break of journey.

And remember that many of the off peak returns are regulated, meaning the DfT would have to approve any change. The DfT aren't perfect, but they do at least have to pretend to listen the the concerns of the public.

This trial should at least give an indication of whether cutting the prices of long distance off peak single tickets to half the return fare would cost the TOC money.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
14,981
Location
Manchester
Which isn't really the point - one should not, on any ticket, have to pay extra to pop out of the station between trains to grab some food if the station's offerings are not acceptable.
I the importance of this is not to be understimated. I recently travelled from Manchester to Inverness by rail and arranged a break at Newcastle to use the Greggs across the road and stock up from a nearby supermarket for my onward journey.

I've left the train at Milton Keynes Central actually on my Crewe to London journey with West Midlands Trains before because I ran out of water and was thirsty. Of course there is absolutely no provision at all onboard on WMT. This of course is not permitted even now by the ticket type (Super Off Peak Return) but fortunately WMT chose not to enforce their onerous restrictions.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
54,329
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
For most journeys you will struggle to get anything more than a five or six hour layover on a normal ticket. Even if you do take advantage of that you will potentially take 20 minutes to get off the plane and onto the street, or an hour or more if there's customs and immigration. There's then half an hour into the city and half an hour back, followed by clearing security and getting to your gate ahead of the flight. You might just fit in lunch, and it's probably not worth the hassle.
In your opinion. In mine I've gone into Amsterdam during a 4 hour layover at AMS (it only takes about half an hour) and it's very common to do so. FWIW, it did lead to a silly conversation at the gate ("when does boarding close" - "you have to be here 2 hours beforehand" - "no, when does it close" and so on for a bit until the gate agent actually told me the truth, which was 30 minutes beforehand).

Certainly you can book more complex multi-city itineraries with overnight stays for minimal extra cost, but that's essentially a separate product with advance booking. There's nothing wrong with rail offering tickets like that. Making it part of the walk-up offering just makes the walk-up tickets more complex for customers to understand, and more difficult for operators to price and vend, and ultimately leads to normal passengers paying more for their trips.
I'm not talking about overnight BoJ, which is much more likely to be planned in advance and so can be achieved by splitting.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
4,808
Location
Sheffield
I'm not talking about overnight BoJ, which is much more likely to be planned in advance and so can be achieved by splitting.
I take it you are still talking about air travel, in which case splitting is not necessarily the best answer. For example, I went Heathrow - Helsinki - Tallinn on a through ticket with an overnight stop. There was an onward flight I could have caught on the first evening and on the second day there were 2 or 3 before the one I caught. Booking the two legs separately would have bumped up the cost considerably.

If you are referring to rail travel my post #98 covers things.

>>>>>>
I am still concerned that returns are being removed as part of the LNER trial. Despite claims that current BoJ rights are not under threat, it seems clear to me that removing returns will severely reduce* the options currently available to break overnight and can only assume this is deliberate.

*except, of course, at increased cost.
 

Joe Paxton

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2017
Messages
1,869
Clapham Junction staff are notorious for this sort of thing and problems have been reported there; here are a few examples:
[three examples snipped]
OK, I haven't had any such problems when breaking my journey at Clapham Jn, which I've done a number of times, but perhaps I got lucky - or they got unlucky...

I do remember a ticket clerk at Clapham Jn being daft and refusing to sell me and a friend return tickets from 'London Terminals' to a destination in the south west, and instead insisting that the origin had to be Clapham Junction - kinda annoying when your plan is to return to Waterloo.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
54,329
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
I do remember a ticket clerk at Clapham Jn being daft and refusing to sell me and a friend return tickets from 'London Terminals' to a destination in the south west, and instead insisting that the origin had to be Clapham Junction - kinda annoying when your plan is to return to Waterloo.
The solution to that one is in your pocket and at a TVM, though don't bet on the barrier staff not being stupid and refusing to let you through, requiring a single to Wandsworth Common in addition.
 

Top