Skegness - Aberdeen valid route?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by PG, 27 Jul 2019.

  1. PG

    PG Member

    Messages:
    343
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    Could someone confirm if my understanding of the routeing guide is correct please?

    I'd like to use the return portion of a Off Peak Return (SVR) from Aberdeen to Skegness as follows:
    • Skegness - Nottingham (on a HST which does NOT stop at Grantham)
    Overnight Break of Journey
    • Nottingham - Grantham
    • Grantham - Edinburgh
    • Edinburgh - Aberdeen
    By my understanding of the routeing guide the above is following a permitted route using maps DL+GS but I'd be grateful if anyone could confirm this, thanks :s
     
    Last edited: 27 Jul 2019
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,441
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2010
    Location:
    Reading
    I don't see how not calling at Grantham affects the routeing permissions - if I'm following correctly, you're still doubling back between Grantham and Nottingham, which makes the route not permitted. I think you would need a Sleaford to Nottingham return to "normalise it" - there may of course be cheaper options.
     
  4. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    42,842
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    You'd be doubling back between bottesford and Nottingham; you can't double back while tracing the maps unless an easement allows it
     
  5. PG

    PG Member

    Messages:
    343
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    Thank you both for your advice, looks like a check of the easements is in order and possibly another ticket.
     
  6. PG

    PG Member

    Messages:
    343
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    Can't find an easement which would help me out :(

    If you'd pardon my enquiry, I'm genuinely confused why map DL shows 2 routes between Nottingham and Sleaford - the one via Grantham and another route, which I'd (seemingly mistakenly) taken as being 'direct'?
     
  7. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,128
    Joined:
    24 Dec 2009
    Location:
    Sheffield
    The other route is the 'direct' route (i.e avoiding Gratham station).

    The problem is that the maps in the Routeing Guide are poor. The 'direct' route actually rejoins the via Grantham route near to Grantham (before Bottesford, which is the first station to the west of Grantham), rather than at Nottingham as suggested by the map. I don't know why they couldn't be drawn following the actual rail route in the same way as is shown when you plan a rail journey on Google Maps.
     
  8. JB_B

    JB_B Member

    Messages:
    719
    Joined:
    27 Dec 2013
    I think the routeing guide maps are confusing in this respect.

    Sometimes a link on a map represents multiple distinct routes by rail ( but around 70-75% of map links are represented just one route by rail).

    and conversely,

    sometimes multiple distinct links on a map represents a route which partially shares the same route by rail with another link (which is the problem in this case.)

    For the mapped part of the journey (in this case between Sleaford and Aberdeen) you mustn't pass through the same station twice (*) - but you can't tell just by looking at the routeing guide maps whether or not you are doing this - you need to know which stations are passed through at rail level. Both the Nottingham-Sleaford and the Nottingham-Grantham links on the routeing guide maps represent the same route (at rail level) between Bottesford and Nottingham)

    slr_abd_ml.png

    slr_abd_rl.png

    (* - except where permitted by the group stations rule which isn't relevant here.)
     
    Last edited: 28 Jul 2019
  9. PG

    PG Member

    Messages:
    343
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    Yes indeed the maps are somewhat obscure in their depiction!

    So am I to assume that in order to use the routeing guide correctly I also need to be consulting a 'proper' railway atlas too?... I bet ATOC will say whatever gives the 'least favourable' option for the passenger <D
     
  10. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    42,842
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    The routeing guide is intended to be interpreted by computers; when you use any booking site, the website's routeing engine will consult the routeing guide (assuming it's not valid under the through train or shortest route rules) to determine if a route is permitted on any applicable ticket, and if the site deems it valid, it will issue a ticket. The itinerary issued in conjunction with the ticket will then be a valid travel itinerary. Most websites will only offer itineraries that can be generated with one through fare, but some websites will offer a combination of fares if this is cheaper and/or if the requested itinerary requires a combination of fares to be issued

    If you want to learn more about how to use the Routeing Guide, you are welcome to join us at a free fares workshop.
     
  11. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

    Messages:
    2,664
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2015
    I suggest finding the guard a sensible amount of time before departure and asking a) if they’ll let you travel to Nottingham or b) if they’d accept you to Nottingham if you bought a Grantham to Nottingham Off peak day single (and one the next day the other way as there’s no Off peak return between Nottingham and Grantham) despite not stopping at Grantham. The worst they can say is no meaning you’d need a Sleaford to Nottingham Off peak return.
     
  12. JB_B

    JB_B Member

    Messages:
    719
    Joined:
    27 Dec 2013
    I think that it would be fair to say that there are effectively two routeing guides.

    There's the public-facing routeing guide - available as the google maps and pdfs at http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide

    Then there's the the electronic national routeing guide (eNRG) specfied in the RDG routeing guide data feed and the accompanying guidance to developers (both of which the industry chooses to keep secret). That data is interpreted by booking sites' algorithms which inevitably include the (sometimes unconscious) assumptions of their programmers.

    The public-facing version is intended to be used by humans but it's not nearly as user-friendly as it should be.

    Some aspects of the two RGs have an very high degree of overlap - for example permitted routes ( yellow pages), associated routeing Points ( pink pages ), group stations and the maps themselves should have a 1:1 correspondence to the eNRG .RGR, .RGP, .RGG and .RGL data. In other areas - e.g. fares-check, easements, shortest route - you might find there's some divergence.
     
  13. PG

    PG Member

    Messages:
    343
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    As it turned out plans had to be altered so the return journey was made all in one day via Grantham, but thanks for the advice.
     

Share This Page