Sky presenter brands Virgin Trains a 'national disgrace'

[thenorthern]

Just seen this.

Sky presenter brands Virgin Trains a 'national disgrace' for charging £338 for an open return from London to Manchester - and it's cheaper to fly to AUSTRALIA

• Martha Kelner was travelling from London to Manchester on an open return
• Took to Twitter to express outrage at £338 cost, branding it 'national disgrace'
• Commenters agreed, pointing out it's cheaper to fly to other side of the world
• However, Virgin says customers can pay as little as £23 by booking in advance

Sky News sports correspondent Martha Kelner has blasted Virgin Trains for charging £338 for an open return from London to Manchester.

The broadcaster branded the operator a 'national disgrace' in a tweet, which has since been liked 7,500 times by equally irate train users.

One woman even claimed she could travel from London to Sydney for a similar price, and indeed one-way flights are available in December for as little as £305.

Another suggested that she could fly to Moscow from London and enjoy a night in a five star hotel for the same price, while another asked why she didn't just fly via Amsterdam.

When another commenter said it would be cheaper to fly, Martha agreed saying: 'To New York.'

I don't get it though basically she got a walk up fare at the station and didn't like the price so she complained on twitter and some people think this is news that someone isn't happy with a rail fare. Also its a bit unfair to compare the cost of flights with that of rail travel as the flights are normally booked far in advance.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes - but many ordinary people would think that some walk-up fares are a gross rip-off, far too expensive - and that advance booking is not an option if you get a sudden need to travel at a time to suit yourself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes - but many ordinary people would think that some walk-up fares are a gross rip-off, far too expensive - and that advance booking is not an option if you get a sudden need to travel at a time to suit yourself.

Yes. Those fares are set to maximise income, not "bums on seats", and as such encourage car travel.

 

[Esker-pades]

A split ticket engine is required. London to Manchester can have a huge chunk shaved off when splitting.

 

[ModernRailways]

I don't get it though basically she got a walk up fare at the station and didn't like the price so she complained on twitter and some people think this is news that someone isn't happy with a rail fare. Also its a bit unfair to compare the cost of flights with that of rail travel as the flights are normally booked far in advance.

You could argue that she was sold the incorrect ticket too. A Day return should have cost £212.45 really. £169 for the peak time journey to London, and then the return would be Off-Peak so would cost £43.45.

 

[DanDaDriver]

You could argue that she was sold the incorrect ticket too. A Day return should have cost £212.45 really. £169 for the peak time journey to London, and then the return would be Off-Peak so would cost £43.45.

But that wouldn’t make for as much concocted media outrage.

Like booking it a day in advance for £85...

 

[MCSHF007]

Martha is clearly a fairly stupid person.

 

[cuccir]

You could argue that she was sold the incorrect ticket too. A Day return should have cost £212.45 really. £169 for the peak time journey to London, and then the return would be Off-Peak so would cost £43.45.

But that wouldn’t make for as much concocted media outrage.

Like booking it a day in advance for £85...

OK but if someone is sold the wrong ticket, at a price over £120 more than they needed, then that's also an issue for concern. Of course, maybe she requested the most flexible ticket.

I share the concern at the newsworthiness of 'someone complained on Twitter', and we all know that really people should generally be able to find ways to avoid this price. BUT that doesn't stop the fact that this product - the £338 return - does exist and that there will be circumstances where that is the most appropriate ticket for someone. And it's hard to argue that the product is not significantly overpriced.

 

[jagardner1984]

And the point, however poorly made, is that as a society we say be environmentally aware, we say ditch the car, and then this.

However you dress it up, any ticket to Manchester costing more than a 10000 mile journey, however unfair the comparison, is utterly crazy.

People can and do need to travel at short notice. Virgin’s response is therefore inadequate.

 

[BluePenguin]

Why is Virgin a national disgrace for selling a fare to Manchester at the price the government set?

Virgin are very annoying but have improved recently, getting rid of peak fares on a Friday for example.

 

[Starmill]

A split ticket engine is required. London to Manchester can have a huge chunk shaved off when splitting.

Not a lot of use if Martha Kelner wanted to travel on the first available departure and then return on any train she pleased, though. But a single split would be possible in such circumstances - at Stockport.

Of course, booking through trainsplit would have saved her a significant amount of money all the same for the reason Modern Railways has divined...

You could argue that she was sold the incorrect ticket too. A Day return should have cost £212.45 really. £169 for the peak time journey to London, and then the return would be Off-Peak so would cost £43.45.

£212.45 is the fare that VT's own website offers for a customer who inputs this journey. I'm surprised they did not make that point themselves. £125.55 could have been saved by booking on her phone stood in the ticket office at London Euston, and collecting the tickets straight away.

What I want to know is where she actually did buy the Anytime Return ticket. The ticket office would have been remiss to sell it to a passenger stating they were returning the same day. Though they would have been unable to sell the £43.45 Off Peak Single they would have been able to sell the £85.90 ticket Off Peak Single, coupled with the same £169 Anytime Single for immediate travel.

I suspect she used a ticket machine. In which case, the correct course for Martha Kelner would have been to write customer relations to request her refund of the £83.10 difference.

Why is Virgin a national disgrace for selling a fare to Manchester at the price the government set?

The fare is unregulated and not set by the government. Virgin Trains are free to charge £1,000, should they wish.

 

[Butts]

If she was that upset an Air Ticket would probably have been cheaper !!

Just as well she was not looking at 1st Class Prices - shudder to think what that would have added to the bill.

Was she travelling for business or leisure - suspect she could probably have claimed it back or at least a portion of it,

 

[Starmill]

And the point, however poorly made, is that as a society we say be environmentally aware, we say ditch the car, and then this.

There is a certain genuine 'overpricedness' to the prices that a great many people, and doubtless even some business, will feel in the £169 Anytime Single rate chosen by Virgin Trains. The similar journey from London to Sheffield, on any fast and direct train, is priced at a much more realistic £97.50. To Doncaster it's £106. They're roughly comparable in terms of distance, speed and service. There's no good reason why Manchester should cost 70% more.

 

[433N]

If a Sky News presenter branded me as a national disgrace, I might take it as a compliment.

 

[RLBH]

There is a certain genuine 'overpricedness' to the prices that a great many people, and doubtless even some business, will feel in the £169 Anytime Single rate chosen by Virgin Trains. The similar journey from London to Sheffield, on any fast and direct train, is priced at a much more realistic £97.50. To Doncaster it's £106. They're roughly comparable in terms of distance, speed and service. There's no good reason why Manchester should cost 70% more.

When the fully-burdened HMRC mileage rate of 45p per mile is applied, driving from Central London to Manchester or Sheffield comes in at £94.05 (Manchester) or £75.15(Sheffield). While you can argue for slightly different mileage rates - higher or lower - for private travel, that's broadly the comparison that businesses will be making. To encourage people out of their cars, the rail system needs to have a comparable offer.

For what it's worth, the average farebox receipt across the entire National Rail system a year or two ago (I can't remember exactly when I worked it out) was 23.2p per passenger-mile, which is actually pretty competitive. Walk-up fares are often considerably more expensive, and Advance fares usually considerably cheaper, both for good reasons. Interestingly, though, after allowing for inflation it's pretty close to the pre-Beeching fare rate of 2d/mile.

 

[Bantamzen]

If a Sky News presenter branded me as a national disgrace, I might take it as a compliment.

Its also worth remember that Sky & Virgin are in competition in the broadband & TV market, not of course that this will have been any motivation bearing in mind said presenter would probably have been travelling on expenses..... </sarcasm>

Plus Sky are rich calling Virgin a rip off, especially Sky Sports, but that's another matter....

 

[Taunton]

Also its a bit unfair to compare the cost of flights with that of rail travel as the flights are normally booked far in advance.

At least by air you all get treated equally in the aircraft cabin. What really hacks me is when on my business trips I get an expensive (fortunately reimbursed) Anytime ticket, because I don't know when the meeting will end, I can end up having to stand, as posted recently, having paid £250 return, while those who paid 10% or so of that are sat in reserved seats.

It's one reason someone in my office certainly drives long distance, having once had to stand for hours on a Cross Country, having probably bought the most expensive Standard class fare of anyone in the train.

 

[yorksrob]

They'll trot out the old excuse "well hardly anyone buys these tickets anyway", in which case why have them.

 

[B&I]

It is a national disgrace, but because nothing is done about it we've all become immune to it.

And while cheaper tickets can be obtained via various wheezes, how is the average member of the public meant to know that ?

 

[Mag_seven]

Also its a bit unfair to compare the cost of flights with that of rail travel as the flights are normally booked far in advance.

Exactly - to use the example of London Sydney used in the article if you want to fly to Sydney tonight on BA it will cost you £1954, not £305!

And its £370 at the time of writing for the earliest flight I can get from Heathrow to Manchester today with BA.

 

[whhistle]

Not protecting rail fares here but:

One woman even claimed she could travel from London to Sydney for a similar price, and indeed one-way flights are available in December for as little as £305.

So you're comparing a single with a return

Another suggested that she could fly to Moscow from London and enjoy a night in a five star hotel for the same price

I can't find anything like this travelling in the next few weeks. Admittedly I didn't search every hotel.

When another commenter said it would be cheaper to fly, Martha agreed saying: 'To New York.'

Again, I didn't see any return fare that was less than £338.

I truly understand what "the people" are saying but that's the price.
If you don't like it, don't use it. There is always another way (flying, taxi, rental car). Some will be more hassle / more expensive yes... but that's the cost of travel these days.

 

[bnm]

Exactly - to use the example of London Sydney used in the article if you want to fly to Sydney tonight on BA it will cost you £1954, not £305!

19 pence per mile for the Sydney flight at £1994. A fare which is amendable and can be cancelled for a full refund.

85 pence per mile for the Anytime Single to Manchester at £169. Or 42 pence per mile for the Off Peak Single at £85.90.

So yes, if its turn up and go (or the closest equivalent) then flying to Sydney is cheaper.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Indeed, £338 is a fare that bears no relation to the actual cost of the journey to Virgin Trains (even if one considers it on the basis of the pence-per-mile averaged costs of Virgin Trains' operations, and not the incremental costs of carrying an extra passenger, which are probably perilously near zero).

But it is not a regulated fare. And if the TOCs were not permitted to charge that much for travel at those, more popular, times, then that would have to mean a combination of either fares increases for 'ordinary' passengers, or an increase in subsidy. Neither are politically or socially acceptable, so the current fares structure is likely to remain in place for the foreseeable future.

For what it's worth, the average farebox receipt across the entire National Rail system a year or two ago (I can't remember exactly when I worked it out) was 23.2p per passenger-mile, which is actually pretty competitive. Walk-up fares are often considerably more expensive, and Advance fares usually considerably cheaper, both for good reasons. Interestingly, though, after allowing for inflation it's pretty close to the pre-Beeching fare rate of 2d/mile.

Indeed, the Off-Peak Return works out at almost exactly that, at 23.6p per mile (assuming the via Stoke route). However, I do think it's a little misleading of a figure, as that presumably includes all types of journeys, including short ones for which the fare can be very high on a pence per mile basis, and it is particularly weighted towards such journeys by the sheer number which are done within London and similar such urban areas.

I would have thought a comparison using just long-distance tickets would actually result in a lower pence per mile outcome.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is Virgin a national disgrace for selling a fare to Manchester at the price the government set?

The Government didn't set it. Where did you get that idea from?

<thinks on>

Oh, probably from the SOR being the regulated fare on commuter operators. On IC operators like VTWC it's the SVR.

 

[al78]

Martha is clearly a fairly stupid person.

No, she could be ignorant, which isn't the same as stupid.

One you are familiar with how to play the system to save money, you forget what it is like not to be in the know. Some people may think trains are like local buses, you turn up and pay a standard fare, not turn up and get ripped off (one of the favourite pastimes in the UK).

 

[Typhoon]

£212.45 is the fare that VT's own website offers for a customer who inputs this journey. I'm surprised they did not make that point themselves. £125.55 could have been saved by booking on her phone stood in the ticket office at London Euston, and collecting the tickets straight away.

Maybe Sky have done exactly the same and refused to pay her expenses!

 

[al78]

Not protecting rail fares here but:


So you're comparing a single with a return


I can't find anything like this travelling in the next few weeks. Admittedly I didn't search every hotel.


Again, I didn't see any return fare that was less than £338.

I truly understand what "the people" are saying but that's the price.
If you don't like it, don't use it. There is always another way (flying, taxi, rental car). Some will be more hassle / more expensive yes... but that's the cost of travel these days.

If we all just say "that's how it is deal with it", that opens the door for anyoine to do anything they like to screw people over, and eveyone has to accept it like good little citizens, heaven forbid people should speak out.

The fare is a p*ss take.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't realise the restrictions were asymmetric. In which case, VTWC have a cheek selling an Anytime Return from Euston to Manchester (that way round) at that price, as most people will trust them and buy it despite it being suitable for almost no journeys (out in the morning peak *and* back the following day in the morning peak is really rather niche). The combination of an Anytime Single and an Off Peak Single is the correct (set of)fare(s) for almost every business journey to London requiring flexibility.

Can Anytime Returns not be asymmetric? This one probably should be.

 

[jagardner1984]

Personally I think it’s really important not to try and defend these fares.

It’s interesting how advance fares have changed over the years. I remember in the early years post privatisation they used to be primarily an incentive to draw people off the most heavily loaded services onto specific lighter loaded ones. That seemed to make perfect sense.

It does seem now the Advance fare, in various forms, has become almost the main form of long distance ticket, with significant savings over off peak returns on most routes, and at little notice.

It also, to my mind, helps DfT fudge the figures, so when someone makes a perfectly valid complaint about this kind of extortionate ticket on a railway upgraded with vast amounts of public money , they reply, “ah but look, you can get a London to glasgow advance for £30”. Not mentioning the need to travel at 1530, on a Tuesday, in January. The experience of most Glasgow to London travellers I speak to does not include £30 fares.

The public perception of the railway seems so negative, news stories like this are unhelpful. If Virgin really Make no money from this ticket, scrap it. The response from them seems dangerously close to “Ha, no one is stupid enough to buy that one.”

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does seem now the Advance fare, in various forms, has become almost the main form of long distance ticket, with significant savings over off peak returns on most routes, and at little notice.

This is not my experience on VTWC - for historical reasons the regulated Off Peak Returns are still fairly reasonably priced, and they are still the main fare I use.