Sky presenter brands Virgin Trains a 'national disgrace'

[NickBucks]

Good job she does not work for the BBC otherwise she would have wanted first class travel and taxi fares paid at both ends.

 

[Mag_seven]

19 pence per mile for the Sydney flight at £1994. A fare which is amendable and can be cancelled for a full refund.

85 pence per mile for the Anytime Single to Manchester at £169. Or 42 pence per mile for the Off Peak Single at £85.90.

So yes, if its turn up and go (or the closest equivalent) then flying to Sydney is cheaper.

But we are always told that "cost per mile" is not a valid comparator as it does not take into account other factors such as demand between the two points under consideration?

 

[Gems]

She should have done the trip twice in a week, bought a railrover, and then she would have been happy at saving money.

See, it is all in the psychology of the situation.

 

[Fearless]

You could argue that she was sold the incorrect ticket too. A Day return should have cost £212.45 really. £169 for the peak time journey to London, and then the return would be Off-Peak so would cost £43.45.

Wasn't there a recent thread about the rights & wrongs of selling the customer exactly what they ask for even if you know that there's a better alternative?

 

[Western Lord]

No, this is not a "national disgrace". Having to pay £338 to see your doctor would be a national disgrace, but buying a rail ticket, however cheap or expensive, is something that the overwhelming majority of the population never do.

 

[Gems]

Wasn't there a recent thread about the rights & wrongs of selling the customer exactly what they ask for even if you know that there's a better alternative?

You see. A good experienced conductor/guard, or booking office staff, would and should have at least asked her what times she was travelling and worked it out for her.

Then again I once asked this and was asked what it had to do with me. "Anytime return is it you want old love" was my reply. Kerching!

 

[J-Rod]

*raises hand* "Excuse me, sirs... but I'd like to comment"

It's all very well people on a railways forum saying "What a fool, she's clearly not an expert like us... she should have done something fiendishly complex instead - that only the likes of us know. The UTTER fool"

(The word 'fool' is a substitute for other, more choice, words)

Regardless of the ins and outs of it, these sort of fares really are profiteering from the people who are not in the know... or desperate. It IS shameful.

Despite (obviously) being a fan of trains, if I want to go home to the other side of the country to visit family for a weekend, I'll drive. It's cheaper.

Good job she does not work for the BBC otherwise she would have wanted first class travel and taxi fares paid at both ends.

Yeah. You've not had dealings with the BBC lately, have you?

 

[Gems]

*raises hand* "Excuse me, sirs... but I'd like to comment"

It's all very well people on a railways forum saying "What a fool, she's clearly not an expert like us... she should have done something fiendishly complex instead - that only the likes of us know. The UTTER fool"

(The word 'fool' is a substitute for other, more choice, words)

Regardless of the ins and outs of it, these sort of fares really are profiteering from the people who are not in the know... or desperate. It IS shameful.

Despite (obviously) being a fan of trains, if I want to go home to the other side of the country to visit family for a weekend, I'll drive. It's cheaper.



Yeah. You've not had dealings with the BBC lately, have you?

You are absolutely spot on of course. As far as I am concerned it has always been a duty to find the cheapest available fare for the journey undertaken and offer that. I think people have to come to understand that when TOC's tinker with fares they are never doing it with you in mind. I don't travel on 'Virgin Trains' I don't care for 'Pedolinos' to be honest, like sitting in a claustrophobic smartie tube, but who I work for all they have ever done is try to shut down split ticketing.
The price is outrageous, and I find it hard to see how anyone can justify that.

 

[Carlisle]

But we are always told that "cost per mile" is not a valid comparator as it does not take into account other factors such as demand between the two points under consideration?

However we’re are also frequently reminded by supporters of the current set up, that had it still existed, BR would have been the one to merely raise fares to surpress demand, whereas the privatised railway should be credited with introducing considerable extra capacity

 

[Bletchleyite]

The price is outrageous, and I find it hard to see how anyone can justify that.

As I said it's all the more outrageous because there is almost no use case for it. Almost nobody goes from London to Manchester at 7am on Monday (say) then returns at 7am on Tuesday (say). They will mostly go out in the morning and back either the same or next evening (or an evening later in the week) - and for all those use cases the appropriate non-split walk-up fare[1] is an Anytime Single out, then buy an Off Peak Single[2] back when you know which day you're returning.

It's outrageous in the other direction too, but there is at least a use-case for it, being as there are evening peak restrictions for the journey the other way round on days other than Fridays. But I bet your classic weekly commuter (out Mon AM, back Fri PM) is still buying an Anytime Return even though they now don't need to!

[1] As Advances are only sold as singles, I don't think you can call combining two singles for a period return journey a split.
[2] This is obviously cheaper if done online as a SVH.

 

[Fearless]

You see. A good experienced conductor/guard, or booking office staff, would and should have at least asked her what times she was travelling and worked it out for her.

Then again I once asked this and was asked what it had to do with me. "Anytime return is it you want old love" was my reply. Kerching!

Yep, I was a booking clerk for a time! And we did indeed ALWAYS ask. Pax would ask for things like "Weekend Day Return" (eh?) and various other things that made no sense. Or we would sell them the ticket, and then they'd pull out a Senior/Student/Forces Railcard and say "Do I get a discount with this?" and we'd start all over again. We regarded it as our job to find out and sell them exactly what they needed.

Going off-topic, but it's fun - we also had the occasional cheeky moment, starting with this old classic:

Passenger: Return, please
Booking clerk: Where to?
Passenger: Back here, of course!

Passenger: Motherwell
Booking clerk: Fine, thanks, how's yours?

Passenger: Feltham
Booking clerk: Not recently, I'm at work...

 

[EssexGonzo]

Yeah, but.......

Are the air comparisons invalid because they're comparing walk-up rail fares with advance booked air fares? What would the walk-up air fares be for the routes quoted?

And yes, it's an outrageous amount of money. But the rail fare system isn't designed for the average person in the street / tabloid journo to understand, is it?

And Sky News = Fox News IMHO.

And while I'm here....BBC expense policy is draconian nowadays. The days of the over-expensed luvvie are over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In all seriousness there's a lot of implication in ticket requests at the window.

At any London commuter station "Travelcard please" means a different thing depending where you are located. (That's what most people ask for at Bletchley, and if they just got a 1-6 they wouldn't get as far as a train)

Or in Liverpool just asking for "town" off-peak means a Merseyrail Day Saver, an Anytime Day Single is about 40p more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And yes, it's an outrageous amount of money. But the rail fare system isn't designed for the average person in the street / tabloid journo to understand, is it?

The Anytime Return is, other than the Anytime Single, about the simplest ticket you could imagine, isn't it? Yet they still get that wrong by having it despite there being almost no use cases to actually buy it in that direction! It is about as silly as the classic 8A and 3A SVRs which need to be Anytime Returns instead.

Logic would be to reduce it *in that direction only* to the sum of an Anytime Single and a SVH, and not worry about the most likely <1% of people for whom that combination wouldn't work.

 

[dk1]

If a Sky News presenter branded me as a national disgrace, I might take it as a compliment.

You beat me to it

 

[whhistle]

If we all just say "that's how it is deal with it", that opens the door for anyoine to do anything they like to screw people over, and eveyone has to accept it like good little citizens, heaven forbid people should speak out.

The fare is a p*ss take.

I wholeheartedly agree.
But the current lust for companies to always make more money last year, and if they only made £64 million profit that's cause for a panic, then we're always going to be ripped off in this country.

If there was a limit on profits a company can make, then I bet our country would be loads better, for everyone - companies and consumers alike.

For example I accepted petrol prices were never going to dip below the £1/L mark ages ago. Petrol companies will charge almost what they like and there's now law that forces them to pass on savings. People have accepted petrol cost is high, yet not train fares? I don't understand.

 

[neilmc]

Virgin (and other TOCs) will think up these ludicrous "Anytime" fares knowing that a lot of people will claim the costs back via expenses thus most of the time they are probably cheating other businesses rather than individuals. The high street bank I use to work for had a travel department which simply churned out Anytime returns for any business travel until that area was outsourced and the new agency promptly put a stop to this insisting that at least ONE way had to be an advance or off-peak ticket. And once the amount claimed in business travel was factored into appraisals, people would drive, go off-peak and stay overnight or develop in new interest in split ticketing, and not before time. We really DO need to use terms like "fraud" and "cheat" for rail companies because as other posters have said, nowhere else would you accept this level of mark-up for a service just because it is provided at one time of day as opposed to another.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I presume she's on expenses

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Oh, probably from the SOR being the regulated fare on commuter operators.

The only case in which an SOR is a regulated fare is where the operator has chosen to make a previous 2003/4 Saver into an SOR. Northern are the main operator have done this (having converted their ex-8A SVRs primarily to SORs or SHRs). In terms of non-'Saver' tickets, it's only season tickets and SDRs that are regulated.

Can Anytime Returns not be asymmetric? This one probably should be.

They can be set at whatever level the operator wants, unless they are a 'fake' regulated fare (as above). They can even undercut the regulated fare, in theory.

I would agree that this ticket is a prime example of a fare that should almost never be charged, but I would be highly surprised if Virgin want to give up this cash cow that they can charge to time-sensitive business travellers who can't be bothered to wait in a ticket office queue and don't know the rail ticketing system well.

 

[Taunton]

as other posters have said, nowhere else would you accept this level of mark-up for a service.

It would appear that it applies elsewhere as well. Only today it is described that Directory Enquiries to the mainstream 118 118 service are now being charged at £11.23. Just sneaked in on your subsequent telephone bill of course. I like to think I am as well informed as the average user on the telecom business, but had no idea they had hiked the price up to this level.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46369401

Now that's relevant to rail, because telecoms are likewise regarded as a public utility and their charges are overseen by a well paid central government appointed Regulator. So you have to ask, in both cases, what has the Regulator been doing to allow such excessive charging in a regulated public service where there is a single dominant company. Isn't that what Regulators are being paid to prevent in the first place.

 

[DanDaDriver]

We really DO need to use terms like "fraud" and "cheat" for rail companies because as other posters have said, nowhere else would you accept this level of mark-up for a service just because it is provided at one time of day as opposed to another.

Holiday Companies

Airlines

Taxis

Energy Companies (Economy 7 / if you don’t switch when your tariff expires you automatically go onto the most expensive tariff for the exact same service)

Delivery charges for most products. (Want it before 9am or on a Saturday?)

Do telephone companies still have peak and off peak?

All you can eat buffet’s

I’m sure there’s more

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If Sky were having a go about Virgin's high train fares, I would point out that Sky's TV package prices are pretty outrageous too, with no opportunity to "split", either.
Having a bash at high peak rail fares is easy journalism really, but they don't offer any solutions.
Nor do they remember it was BR who invented high peak fares/restrictions in the first place, to help pay for WCML electrification (later applied to other intercity lines as improved services came in).

 

[ah-media]

Martha is clearly a fairly stupid person.

"Sorry boss... Can't come down to London at short notice ... I can be down a week Friday if that helps? Can get a cheap fare then"

She works for Sky... Unfortunalty, the news (even sports news) doesn't wait for advanced fares, if she is needed in London, her priority is to go to London, not spend half an hour trying to book an advanced ticket - so I think it is really out of line calling her stupid

 

[RLBH]

For example I accepted petrol prices were never going to dip below the £1/L mark ages ago. Petrol companies will charge almost what they like and there's now law that forces them to pass on savings. People have accepted petrol cost is high, yet not train fares? I don't understand.

Petrol prices have, broadly, changed in line with inflation. The 'average' rail fare has too, but it doesn't get attention. The handful of ludicrously priced Anytime tickets do get attention - and give infrequent rail users the impression that trains are an expensive way to travel.

I've no problem with Anytime tickets being relatively expensive to manage demand at busy times. If this is being done, though, a full range of Off-Peak tickets should be available and these treated as the ticket that the average walk-up passenger can buy with an expectation of paying a reasonable amount. Whatever 'reasonable' means under the circumstances.

Advances should, really, be treated as a special discounted fare to fill up otherwise underused services. IMHO, any service with standing passengers or with higher than average passenger numbers should not have Advance fares available. Of course, the mechanics of ORCATS means that train operating companies are encouraged to sell more Advance tickets.

 

[OwlMan]

As I said it's all the more outrageous because there is almost no use case for it. Almost nobody goes from London to Manchester at 7am on Monday (say) then returns at 7am on Tuesday (say). They will mostly go out in the morning and back either the same or next evening (or an evening later in the week) - and for all those use cases the appropriate non-split walk-up fare[1] is an Anytime Single out, then buy an Off Peak Single[2] back when you know which day you're returning.

It's outrageous in the other direction too, but there is at least a use-case for it, being as there are evening peak restrictions for the journey the other way round on days other than Fridays. But I bet your classic weekly commuter (out Mon AM, back Fri PM) is still buying an Anytime Return even though they now don't need to!

[1] As Advances are only sold as singles, I don't think you can call combining two singles for a period return journey a split.
[2] This is obviously cheaper if done online as a SVH.

But an off-peak single from Euston to Manchester is not valid (code 9I) in the evening peak.
Not valid on trains timed to depart:
London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45,

 

[sprunt]

£212.45 is the fare that VT's own website offers for a customer who inputs this journey. I'm surprised they did not make that point themselves. £125.55 could have been saved by booking on her phone stood in the ticket office at London Euston, and collecting the tickets straight away.

I don't see why they'd want to expose that bit of railway industry stupidity to wider attention.

Plus Sky are rich calling Virgin a rip off, especially Sky Sports, but that's another matter....

Of course it's another matter. One is a luxury add-on television service (you can get plenty of telly without paying Sky a penny) and the other is a vital part of the national infrastructure.

And yes, it's an outrageous amount of money. But the rail fare system isn't designed for the average person in the street / tabloid journo to understand, is it?

And that, in essence, is the problem.

 

[Stevec101]

But that wouldn’t make for as much concocted media outrage.

Like booking it a day in advance for £85...

Exactly all the wa**ers are doing is trying to stir ****. It's all the media do. I hate them. If you turned up at Manchester and really needed a last minute train to London changing at stoke or Crewe for London north western would save you most of the money compared to open return on virgin direct. It's utter bollocks

 

[Statto]

If Sky were having a go about Virgin's high train fares, I would point out that Sky's TV package prices are pretty outrageous too, with no opportunity to "split", either.
Having a bash at high peak rail fares is easy journalism really, but they don't offer any solutions.
Nor do they remember it was BR who invented high peak fares/restrictions in the first place, to help pay for WCML electrification (later applied to other intercity lines as improved services came in).

Agreed, £33 a month just for SKY Sports watching via Now TV, & you don't even get the Red button options.

Peak restrictions are annoying, like the 08.47 Liverpool-Euston is a Peak train for those traveling with London tickets, but off peak for those with tickets traveling to other destinations & not going via London, it feels daft that a train arriving at it's destination around 11am is a peak train

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Now that's relevant to rail, because telecoms are likewise regarded as a public utility and their charges are overseen by a well paid central government appointed Regulator. So you have to ask, in both cases, what has the Regulator been doing to allow such excessive charging in a regulated public service where there is a single dominant company. Isn't that what Regulators are being paid to prevent in the first place.

Because passenger rail services are privately franchised over a limited period, not permanently privately owned like telecoms or energy.
The regulation is mainly at the refranchising time when commitments are made to the DfT about fare types and levels.
During a franchise the fares regulation is only the annual review of a selection of fares (season and off-peak, but not anytime fares) which the DfT sets directly.
Virgin's overall fares policy will have been "endorsed" by DfT at the time of the last direct award (quite recently).
This probably includes the recent lifting of peak restrictions from Euston on Fridays.
And there is some competition (depending on the route/city pair) from other TOCs, not to mention road and air.
BA can charge equally outrageous (unregulated) walk-up fares on peak flights MAN-LHR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only case in which an SOR is a regulated fare is where the operator has chosen to make a previous 2003/4 Saver into an SOR. Northern are the main operator have done this (having converted their ex-8A SVRs primarily to SORs or SHRs). In terms of non-'Saver' tickets, it's only season tickets and SDRs that are regulated.

Sorry, I meant SDR, most people don't notice the difference as most journeys by far are day returns.