Sky presenter brands Virgin Trains a 'national disgrace'

[ForTheLoveOf]

Sorry, I meant SDR, most people don't notice the difference as most journeys by far are day returns.

For something like London to Manchester (as opposed to the opposite direction) I highly doubt many people are doing a day return journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

During a franchise the fares regulation is only the annual review of a selection of fares (season and off-peak, but not anytime fares) which the DfT sets directly.

A fair amount of 'average' rail passengers will either directly use these fares, or the level of prices on the network will be effectively capped by these. For example, the price of the Anytime Return is effectively capped by the price of a season ticket (for which the weekly rate is only slightly more than an Anytime Return for this journey), and the price of an Advance is effectively capped by the price of the available Off-Peak or Anytime fare.

However, the DfT does not set fares on VT (unlike on GTR where this is perhaps somewhat more arguable) - they merely limit their level and regulate their restrictions and validity.

 

[cuccir]

Virgin (and other TOCs) will think up these ludicrous "Anytime" fares knowing that a lot of people will claim the costs back via expenses thus most of the time they are probably cheating other businesses rather than individual

This is exactly why these tickets exist at these prices - a sufficient number of people travelling intercity in the morning peaks are on expenses such that the high cost can be charged.

 

[dcbwhaley]

If she was that upset an Air Ticket would probably have been cheaper !!

Just as well she was not looking at 1st Class Prices - shudder to think what that would have added to the bill.

Was she travelling for business or leisure - suspect she could probably have claimed it back or at least a portion of it,

The cheapest flight from Manchester to Sydney today is £628 and it doesn't leave until 1755.

 

[dcbwhaley]

You are absolutely spot on of course. As far as I am concerned it has always been a duty to find the cheapest available fare for the journey undertaken and offer that. I think people have to come to understand that when TOC's tinker with fares they are never doing it with you in mind. I don't travel on 'Virgin Trains' I don't care for 'Pedolinos' to be honest, like sitting in a claustrophobic smartie tube, but who I work for all they have ever done is try to shut down split ticketing.
The price is outrageous, and I find it hard to see how anyone can justify that.

It is no different to buying anything else. If I want to buy a, for example, a television I don't just walk up to the first shop with one in the window and pay what is asked. I shop around for the cheapest or the one with special benefits. Just as I do for a rail ticket

 

[Clip]

We really DO need to use terms like "fraud" and "cheat" for rail companies because as other posters have said, nowhere else would you accept this level of mark-up for a service just because it is provided at one time of day as opposed to another.

Apart from buffet cars, Motorway Services, budget airlines trolley prices and thats just all i can think of right now which shows that your statement is wholly false

 

[dcbwhaley]

Holiday Companies

Airlines

Taxis

Energy Companies (Economy 7 / if you don’t switch when your tariff expires you automatically go onto the most expensive tariff for the exact same service)

Delivery charges for most products. (Want it before 9am or on a Saturday?)

Do telephone companies still have peak and off peak?

All you can eat buffet’s

I’m sure there’s more

Indeed
Car Hire
Canal boat hire
Plumbers
Roofers
Electricians

 

[WelshBluebird]

It is no different to buying anything else. If I want to buy a, for example, a television I don't just walk up to the first shop with one in the window and pay what is asked. I shop around for the cheapest or the one with special benefits. Just as I do for a rail ticket

Your analogy would be fine if the price of a TV changed depending on the time day, or the day of the week, or if you got a discount for paying for the same TV several weeks in advance of getting it etc etc.
Rail ticket pricing is a hell of a lot more complicated.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Your analogy would be fine if the price of a TV changed depending on the time day, or the day of the week, or if you got a discount for paying for the same TV several weeks in advance of getting it etc etc.
Rail ticket pricing is a hell of a lot more complicated.

It is more complicated but there are online resources that can find you the cheapest rail ticket just as easily as the cheapest television.

 

[ivanhoe]

The journalist probably does a fair bit of traveling for the job and is savvy about various fares available. It was an opportunity to promote herself on Twitter knowing she is followed by her own colleagues and those in the ''trade'. It starts a conversation going amongst the hacks and gives them all an opportunity to have a go when the news is flat. Not defending the fare but without knowing what she asked for , I'll keep an open mind. It's not coming out of her back pocket after all.

 

[Typhoon]

"Sorry boss... Can't come down to London at short notice ... I can be down a week Friday if that helps? Can get a cheap fare then"

She works for Sky... Unfortunalty, the news (even sports news) doesn't wait for advanced fares, if she is needed in London, her priority is to go to London, not spend half an hour trying to book an advanced ticket - so I think it is really out of line calling her stupid

I don't think it states anywhere that she was travelling for work. I have left the sections about her emboldened.

Sky presenter brands Virgin Trains a 'national disgrace' for charging £338 for an open return from London to Manchester - and it's cheaper to fly to AUSTRALIA

• Martha Kelner was travelling from London to Manchester on an open return
• Took to Twitter to express outrage at £338 cost, branding it 'national disgrace'
• Commenters agreed, pointing out it's cheaper to fly to other side of the world
• However, Virgin says customers can pay as little as £23 by booking in advance

Sky News sports correspondent Martha Kelner has blasted Virgin Trains for charging £338 for an open return from London to Manchester.

The broadcaster branded the operator a 'national disgrace' in a tweet, which has since been liked 7,500 times by equally irate train users.

If she is travelling for work she should be on expenses (as stated above), in which case it is up to Sky to decide whether they want to spend £338 on her going to the capital asap.
If she is travelling for other reasons, she is just like the rest of us, travel off peak, when others are not, and get a lower fare. Been like that for ever since I can remember (over sixty years).

If you take away 'Sky presenter', 'Sky News sports correspondent' and 'The broadcaster' out, it becomes a non-story that may not merit space on forums such as 'Chorlton Chatter' or 'Salford Says'.

 

[Starmill]

It is more complicated but there are online resources that can find you the cheapest rail ticket just as easily as the cheapest television.

Is that the case? Well then why don't you tell me what the cheapest valid ticket was for her early morning London to Manchester journey? You're right that it costs a fraction of the price Martha Kelner paid. Once you've found it, tell me what you would say when you were told it wasn't valid by VT's staff? What would you do when they asked you to buy a new ticket? When you refused and were not permitted access to the train (with your 100% valid ticket) what would you do? How late would you arrive at your destination and how much more would you have had to pay? If the revenue staff called the police and they asked you to leave the station, what then? Even though your ticket was totally valid, and you did nothing illegal?

Should be easy for you to set all that out. After all it's only like buying a television.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Is that the case? Well then why don't you tell me what the cheapest valid ticket was for her early morning London to Manchester journey? You're right that it costs a fraction of the price Martha Kelner paid. Once you've found it, tell me what you would say when you were told it wasn't valid by VT's staff? What would you do when they asked you to buy a new ticket? When you refused and were not permitted access to the train (with your 100% valid ticket) what would you do? How late would you arrive at your destination and how much more would you have had to pay? If the revenue staff called the police and they asked you to leave the station, what then? Even though your ticket was totally valid, and you did nothing illegal?

Should be easy for you to set all that out. After all it's only like buying a television.

Since OP doesn't tell us what time she was travelling I can't find the appropriate ticket.
And I don't what your rant about being denied travel on a valid ticket has to do with my statement that there are adequate online resources for finding the best value ticket.

 

[Skie]

Virgin do play silly buggers with advances though, so to claim buying in advance is cheaper wont always be true. They don't offer them on some services so you are stuck paying the full anytime fare, or perversely buy a First Advance (if allowed by your employer) for the same service which can sometimes be cheaper.

 

[Starmill]

And I don't what your rant about being denied travel on a valid ticket has to do with my statement that there are adequate online resources for finding the best value ticket.

There are no cheaper tickets that offer the same flexibility that would not be reasonably likely to result in breach of contract against you. What 'online resources' are you referring to that can reduce the price of the Anytime Single? You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I will start you off with a London to Dewsbury Anytime Single. This saves a proportionally small amount over London to Manchester, £37.50. But it introduces a big risk that you will be denied boarding, or asked to pay the excess up to the much more expensive £181.50 'via Manchester' fare.

 

[B&I]

If we all just say "that's how it is deal with it", that opens the door for anyoine to do anything they like to screw people over, and eveyone has to accept it like good little citizens, heaven forbid people should speak out.

The fare is a p*ss take.

A large number of people on here seem to actively welcome that sort of world

 

[Essan]

The cheapest flight from Manchester to Sydney today is £628 and it doesn't leave until 1755.

And can you use that ticket on any of the airline's flights today, returning on any flight within the next month?

Cheap airline tickets need to be booked in advance and are only valid on the stated service. An analogy with Advance train tickets is fair, An analogy with a walk up Anytime train ticket is not. But when did the media ever let such minor details get in the way of a story specifically aimed to make joe public angry?

 

[dcbwhaley]

There are no cheaper tickets that offer the same flexibility that would not be reasonably likely to result in breach of contract against you. What 'online resources' are you referring to that can reduce the price of the Anytime Single? You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I will start you off with a London to Dewsbury Anytime Single. This saves a proportionally small amount over London to Manchester, £37.50. But it introduces a big risk that you will be denied boarding, or asked to pay the excess up to the much more expensive £181.50 'via Manchester' fare.

There is no evidence in the original post that the

There are no cheaper tickets that offer the same flexibility that would not be reasonably likely to result in breach of contract against you. What 'online resources' are you referring to that can reduce the price of the Anytime Single? You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I will start you off with a London to Dewsbury Anytime Single. This saves a proportionally small amount over London to Manchester, £37.50. But it introduces a big risk that you will be denied boarding, or asked to pay the excess up to the much more expensive £181.50 'via Manchester' fare.

There is no evidence in the original post that the reporter needed the flexibility of an Anytime ticket.

Trainline is offering me a VT ticket from Manchester to London leaving in twenty minutes time for £89. Are you telling me that I would not be allowed to travel on that ticket
Or that if I payed £112 to travel om the 1933 London-Dewsbury service that I would be surcharged another £70.
That has never been my experience; you are talking nonsense.

 

[dcbwhaley]

And can you use that ticket on any of the airline's flights today, returning on any flight within the next month?

Cheap airline tickets need to be booked in advance and are only valid on the stated service. An analogy with Advance train tickets is fair, An analogy with a walk up Anytime train ticket is not. But when did the media ever let such minor details get in the way of a story specifically aimed to make joe public angry?

I was making the point that you can't fly to Sydney for £303 without booking in advance. But if Starmill is correct there are no tickets other than Anytime tickets on which you can travel without fear of being in breach of contract.

 

[6Gman]

Walk-up Open Returns can be (very) expensive. This traveller was upset at how expensive it was.

But "national disgrace" ? Really?

What does that mean in this context, and what does she want to change?

Presumably cheaper Open Returns.

Which can only be achieved by:

a) more government support (directly or indirectly);
b) increasing other fares.

So which would she choose?

 

[Essan]

I was making the point that you can't fly to Sydney for £303 without booking in advance. But if Starmill is correct there are no tickets other than Anytime tickets on which you can travel without fear of being in breach of contract.

Aye. But there were other tickets available had you booked in advance and been happy to being restricted to travelling on a specific service. Just like air travel. I just think its an unfair analogy.

That said, I agree that standard walk up fares on our trains are, in some cases at least, too expensive.

 

[Starmill]

There is no evidence in the original post that the reporter needed the flexibility of an Anytime ticket.

Given she bought one, then that is pretty darn obvious? Who would pay £338 for something on a whim? Certainly not someone who thought that it was a 'national disgrace'. So I am afraid either you believe Martha Kelner was lying, or your logic has failed.

Trainline is offering me a VT ticket from Manchester to London leaving in twenty minutes time for £89.

This isn't the time she was travelling though? So this is irrelevant?

Or that if I payed £112 to travel om the 1933 London-Dewsbury service that I would be surcharged another £70.

There are no London to Dewsbury services. This also no London to Manchester service at 1933.

That has never been my experience; you are talking nonsense.

You are making comparisons without the use of logic. The fact is that if you require flexilbe travel in the morning peak in either direction between Manchester and London, £169 is the price. If you comit to a train you can split, or get an Advance ticket, but then you come up against restrictions. Your isistence that there are 'online resources' (which you still have not linked to?) that can change the price of this does not make it so.

 

[Darandio]

Given she bought one, then that is pretty darn obvious? Who would pay £338 for something on a whim? Certainly not someone who thought that it was a 'national disgrace'. So I am afraid either you believe Martha Kelner was lying, or your logic has failed.

Would that mindset change if they were on expenses though? Which she was.

 

[Wolfie]

The railway industry and it's companies are among the least popular and most despised entities in this country. I see yet again that the insiders are circling the wagons. If the industry is stupid enough to take on the media it will lose and lose heavily. Push it and there will be massive media, and hence public, pressure for industry reform. Under public pressure politicians, particularly the current enfeebled government which is desperate for public support in anything, will act. No more stupidly priced tickets, no more hopelessly dated biased laws, full application of consumer legislation...
Bring it on rail industry, pick that fight l beg you...

 

[dcbwhaley]

The railway industry and it's companies are among the least popular and most despised entities in this country. I see yet again that the insiders are circling the wagons. If the industry is stupid enough to take on the media it will lose and lose heavily. Push it and there will be massive media, and hence public, pressure for industry reform. Under public pressure politicians, particularly the current enfeebled government which is desperate for public support in anything, will act. No more stupidly priced tickets, no more hopelessly dated biased laws, full application of consumer legislation...
Bring it on rail industry, pick that fight l beg you...

No higher than third most despised certainly behind the Government and Ryanair.

 

[Wolfie]

No higher than third most despised certainly behind the Government and Ryanair.

The first l might agree. The second, as long as things don't go wrong, provides a reliable and generally cheap service. The rail industry is widely perceived as overpriced and hopelessly unreliable.

 

[whhistle]

Virgin (and other TOCs) will think up these ludicrous "Anytime" fares knowing that a lot of people will claim the costs back via expenses thus most of the time they are probably cheating other businesses rather than individuals.

And this is why I think expenses should be changed, somehow.

Say Cadburys employees claim back hundreds of millions of pounds in expenses per year.
How does the company recoup that money?
Charging more for chocolate.
Who loses?
Everyone - we all have to pay more for chocolate to pay for silly expenses, that the employee doesn't care how much it costs as "they're not paying".

 

[142blue]

This person is employed by Rupert Murdoch

If ever the term national disgrace should exist it can easily be applied to him

My experience as a retailer of tickets is always converse with my customer, more so if they ask for that as a return and direct them to buying the appropriate single for the return later, make them aware of the off peak option especially on a Friday or to check online before leaving the office to see if there are advances available in the next hour or so

If only she was doing Manchester to Exeter via London

 

[Bantamzen]

And this is why I think expenses should be changed, somehow.

Say Cadburys employees claim back hundreds of millions of pounds in expenses per year.
How does the company recoup that money?
Charging more for chocolate.
Who loses?
Everyone - we all have to pay more for chocolate to pay for silly expenses, that the employee doesn't care how much it costs as "they're not paying".

I have often thought this when watching people buying walk up tickets to London in the morning peak, using company credit cards. I once said to one such person that they could save a fair bit by just buying the day before online, to which they replied "Its OK, its on company expenses", without a moment's thought as to who would ultimately have to pick up the cost. I can't help but wonder if these mega-expensive walk-up fares exist only because so many expense accounts carry much of the burden?

 

[DarloRich]

as usual the vast majority of posters miss the point and have little idea what those outside the rail fan community think about railways and fares in particular. They want to turn up at the station and buy a simple, decently priced ticket for an on the day journey. They don't expect to need any "special knowledge" or to need to book 17 years in advance to get a reasonable fare.

Go and talk to some real people about railways. There views might shock you.

£338 for a ticket from London to Manchester IS outrageous. The sad thing is many of you don't see that.