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Slate from North Wales

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Y Ddraig Coch

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Likewise.

And remember that the nuclear fuel wasn't originally intended to go along the Conwy Valley: the original rail route was to be via Bala from the south. The flooding of the Tryweryn valley cut across the trackbed (though funds were initially allocated for a diversion), and then BR decided to close the Rhiwabon-Barmouth line, all while the plant was under construction. Building a connecting line through Blaenau and keeping the Conwy Valley line open was the cheaper option.

I wonder when the last slate traffic ran along the Conwy Valley?

The waste now gets loaded onto rail at the Valley triangle I believe and goes down the North Wales coast mainline as the track for many years now has stopped at Blaenau Ffestiniog and the track to Traws has closed....but makes a lovely walk as I found out last summer.
 
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Y Ddraig Coch

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I also came across an (old) interesting article of which I am sure some must still be valid.

http://www.penmorfa.com/Conwy/waste.html

The Conwy Valley line has seen no regular freight traffic since the closure of Trawsfynydd power station. The last nuclear flask train ran in 1997 and apart from a rare engineers train and occasional excursion, the sparse passenger service has been the only traffic. There is a chance this could change in the future however.

In April 2002 a new tax was introduced on Primary Aggregates (this is rock which is newly quarried), the tax does not apply to Secondary Aggregates (rock which has already been quarried and then rejected as waste). The process of slate quarrying generates vast amounts of waste rock - often less than 10% is useful and the rest is dumped. The vast heaps of waste rock are what characterise the Slate Quarrying areas of North Wales, none more so than in the area around Blaenau Ffestiniog. There are estimated to be 730 million tonnes of slate waste in North Wales of which 370 million tonnes are in the Bethesda and Blaenau Ffestiniog districts. Current extraction is increasing this amount by 6 million tonnes a year. Slate waste could, theoretically, supply some 50% of UK crushed rock sales. This amounts to a market size of some 59 million tonnes/annum. It is widely used in North Wales for general fill and road building and these applications represent the major future use of slate waste as a secondary aggregate. To read more about the Welsh Slate industry please visit my website:

The Slate Industry of North & Mid Wales

Welsh Slate, owners of the Oakeley Quarry in Blaenau Ffestiniog, would like to enter the Secondary Aggregates market in a big way.

Update February 2011: Oakeley slate quarry in Blaenau Ffestiniog closed in April 2010, it is currently mothballed but could be reopened to extract slate waste. With the current recession and the ending of rail freight grants, any plans for slate waste trains must be regarded as long term.

101685%20Blaenau%20north%20station.jpg


Oakeley Quarry forms the background to this photo of the disused North station in Blaenau, a conveyor belt would be built down the incline in the background.

A new terminal, for which planning permission has been granted, would be built at Rhiwbryfdir. The terminal would be served by a conveyor belt from Oakley Quarry on the West side of the railway. The conveyor would cross over the former Ffestiniog Railway Dinas Branch and the Conwy Valley line to the new terminal. The rock would come from the inner part of the quarry and not be taken from the waste heap visible. This is Y Domen Fawr and is a listed structure.
Estimates some years ago put the cost of the terminal at £28 million and 100 jobs, in an area of high unemployment, would be created. Rail transport is the only practical way to transport the volumes envisaged and connection would be made to the Conwy Valley line near the entrance to Blaenau Tunnel. Ironically this stretch of line - at 1 in 43 - is the steepest on the entire line. Once in the tunnel, the gradient is downhill all the way to Llandudno Junction. It is likely that track and possibly signalling improvements will be made to the line, but the extent of these is not known at present. Neither are the likely tonnages or destinations of the traffic. In 2005 Atkins Rail were commissioned, by the Welsh Assembly, to produce a report on the viability of the project.


To establish the practicality of rail transport, a series of tests were carried out on November 17th 2002. It was hoped that Blaenau would live up to its reputation as one of the wettest places in Britain but in the event conditions were dry and sunny.

The 6Z24 08.30 Crewe-Blaenau Ffestiniog Freightliner Heavy Haul test train, headed by immaculate 66 606 with 10 JNA 'Gondola' wagons, first worked down the Coast . It was followed by 6Z25 09.30 Crewe-Blaenau hauled by 66 514 and a further 8 JNA's.

The two trains were coupled together with 66 606 leading and 66514 on the rear idling, but able to assist should it prove neccessary. The 66/6 class have a lower gearing than the standard Freightliner 66 making them more suitable for this type of haulage. The combined train weight would be not far short of 2000 tonnes. A series of four tests were then carried out on the steeply inclined approach to Ffestiniog Tunnel. The first involved 66 606 hauling the train to the tunnel. The second test was carried out from the bottom of the incline to the tunnel. The third involved 66 606 starting the train outside the tunnel, which it failed to do. The train backed down onto the straight section and this time 66 606 managed to get the train moving and hauled it to the tunnel entrance. From here the train set off back to Crewe.


waste2.jpg

66514 emerging from the tunnel with the second train from Crewe.

waste1.jpg


The combined train headed by 66606, with 66514 idling on the rear

waste4.jpg


66606 on one of the tests at the tunnel entrance

waste3.jpg


Tests completed, the train departs for Crewe - mission accomplished

All the above photos are by courtesy of Eryl Crump.
 

hilly

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The waste now gets loaded onto rail at the Valley triangle I believe and goes down the North Wales coast mainline as the track for many years now has stopped at Blaenau Ffestiniog and the track to Traws has closed....but makes a lovely walk as I found out last summer.
Nuclear waste at valley is from the wylfa power station not trawsfynydd
 

krus_aragon

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The waste now gets loaded onto rail at the Valley triangle I believe and goes down the North Wales coast mainline as the track for many years now has stopped at Blaenau Ffestiniog and the track to Traws has closed....but makes a lovely walk as I found out last summer.
The rail route from Blaenau to Trawsfynydd remained open until the defuelling portion of decommissioning was complete there. That was completed by ~1993, from memory. The Valley triangle was only ever used for Wylfa's fuel. Incidentally, defuelling there is approaching completion too.

In the days when both power stations were operational, the flask trains were combined at Llandudno Jn yard for onward travel to Cumbria.
 

CaptPablo

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There is an estimated 300-500 million tonnes of slate waste in North Wales so more than enough to keep everyone happy including exporters and tourists alike.

The use of the Conwy Valley line to move slate waste out of Blaenau Ffestiniog is very sustainable and with innovative logistics can provide environmental protection whilst at the same time stimulating employment.

i would envisage trains reversing at Llandudno Junction then by way of the Halton Curve accessing the older of Peel Ports 2 container terminals in Liverpool to load the slate waste onto bulk carriers.
 

CaptPablo

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“Also nearby Penmaenmawr sidings are being refettled for new traffic for the Hanson Group apparently.“[/QUOTE]

Anyone have any more news on this or where this nice rumour came from? I’m from Pen.
 

6Gman

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i would envisage trains reversing at Llandudno Junction then by way of the Halton Curve accessing the older of Peel Ports 2 container terminals in Liverpool to load the slate waste onto bulk carriers.

Why would it go to Liverpool for export? Surely the idea would be to use it within the UK?
 

pt_mad

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I hope they're selective in where they take waste from. Some of the waste tips, in Blaenau in particular, are very stiking features of the landscape. Sure, they're man-made but they're very dramatic and help tell the story of the town.

I know UNESCO are considering some of the mines and associated landscapes for world heritage listing which presumably will protect the most important sites and there's no real shortage of the stuff around Gwynedd!

Do we know how Bleanau feels about the slate tips? It would be fascinating to know or have an idea?

Just recently, now some greenery is growing on a lot of the tips, it is starting to look a lot more of a landscape than it did. I remember in the mid 1990s, when the roads weren't so well maintained and there was less tourism, that the place could appear very dark and bleak indeed. The tips having little greenery on them and on a foggy day it could feel like the end of the earth. Probably one of the contributing factors as to why the town hasn't been brought into the Snowdonia National Park, the whole thing forming a circle around the town.
However in recent years with the opening of the slate mine to visitors and the zip lines, the slate itself does seem to have become much more of a point of interest.
Whether the residents would rather see it brushed aside to make way for new industry or employment I don't know. Possibly if it meant a change to the face of the town? Then again heritage is important and tourism is growing.
Hardto say.
 

alex17595

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. Probably one of the contributing factors as to why the town hasn't been brought into the Snowdonia National Park, the whole thing forming a circle around the town.

This was to allow the quarries to continue to develop freely.

I know quite a few people to visit because of the Slate, me for one have made many visits because of it. I'm suprised it isn't more popular, I have never seen it busy like Betws-y-coed even though there is a few attractions worth visiting. The town centre is fairly nice as well - I think it was rebuilt some years ago.
 

pt_mad

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This was to allow the quarries to continue to develop freely.

I know quite a few people to visit because of the Slate, me for one have made many visits because of it. I'm suprised it isn't more popular, I have never seen it busy like Betws-y-coed even though there is a few attractions worth visiting. The town centre is fairly nice as well - I think it was rebuilt some years ago.
Trouble is how many drive through to see the slate and drive straight out the other end? Which although a great topic of conversation doesn't create anything. As you say there has been some redevelopment in the town centre but still a lot of empty or badly maintained units and I believe the population has declined but correct me if I'm wrong.
The tourist attraction slate mine is obviously going to do the most to create interest in the slate, but even then I have previously read that without the zips and trampolines the visitor mine in itself wouldn't have continued to be viable. Which speaks for itself in many ways.
 

ChiefPlanner

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So , if the 300 million or so tons of slate waste was cleared , this would leave an 18thC pastoral hill / mountain side - akin to a great part of North Wales. Would this drive a major tourist / leisure inwards flow ? (assuming the present attractions of Llechwedd etc survive ?.

The slate was tipped due to the cost limitation policies of the Victorian mine owners with scant regard for the environment , much as in South Wales where after Aberfan for tragic reasons , the tips were removed and part recycled (there was a lot of small coal in them for boring reasons I wont go into , but was very marketable).

So unless there are (a) guaranteed markets for crushed slate waste (b) an affordable way of moving said waste to said market (unlikely in my view) , should the landscape be retained.? I don't know. I think we have been round this before though.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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Probably one of the contributing factors as to why the town hasn't been brought into the Snowdonia National Park, the whole thing forming a circle around the town.

Blaenau has been in the National Park for almost a decade now. I think it was around 2011 that the ridiculous exclusion of Blaenau ended.

https://www.snowdonia.gov.wales/visiting/places-to-visit/ffestiniog

This had been discussed on another thread but Blaenau is definately on the up and is shortly due to be registered by UNESCO as a World Heritage Site, the highest UN designation of a place of historic and geographical importance. That's up there with Edward I's north Wales castles, the Taj Mahal and the Great Barrier Reif.

As has happened in Blaenavon in south Wales this should lead to the sensitive development of the town with the residents interests in the forefront.

You just need to loose your blinkers, do some research, and walk around the place to realise what an historic treasure it is. What will it take to stop the ill-informed sneers?
 
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pt_mad

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Blaenau has been in the National Park for almost a decade now. I think it was around 2011 that the ridiculous exclusion of Blaenau ended.

https://www.snowdonia.gov.wales/visiting/places-to-visit/ffestiniog

This had been discussed on another thread but Blaenau is definately on the up and is shortly due to be registered by UNESCO as a World Heritage Site, the highest UN designation of a place of historic and geographical importance. That's up there with Edward I's north Wales castles, the Taj Mahal and the Great Barrier Reif.

As has happened in Blaenavon in south Wales this should lead to the sensitive development of the town with the residents interests in the forefront.

You just need to loose your blinkers, do some research, and walk around the place to realise what an historic treasure it is. What will it take to stop the ill-informed sneers?
Looks like Wikipedia still hasn't been updated https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaenau_Ffestiniog :
Although the town is in the centre of the Snowdonia National Park, the boundaries of the Park exclude the town and its substantial slate waste heaps.
 
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Slate has been despatched by rail from North Wales since the 1950s.

There were (at least!) four sources of slate served by rail in North Wales, and all lasted into the 1960s; they were Blaenau Ffestiniog, Nantlle, Port Dinorwic, and Port Penrhyn. There were no connections between the Penryn Quarry and Bethesda station, nor between the Dinorwic Quarries and Llanberis station, and therefore (as a general rule) no slate would have been moved from those stations. Moreover, neither had the slate transshipment facilities found in Blaenau and Nantlle.

Photos exist showing BR shunts at Port Dinorwic and Port Penrhyn in 1961. The last train on the Penrhyn Quarry "main line" between the quarry and the port ran on 27th July 1962, and it's reasonable to assume that the last slate was shipped by BR from the Port at about that time; circuit wagons were provided by BR specially for the transport of Penrhyn Quarry slate (these were marked up with something like "RETURN TO PORT PENRHYN, LMR"), and some could usually be seen from passing trains parked-up on the branch between the North Wales coast main line and Port Penrhyn. As the Padarn Railway (which linked the Llanberis quarries to Port Dinorwic) closed in late 1961, it's reasonable to assume that slate from Port Dinorwic also ceased at about the same time.

From memory and what I've found by a quick "dig", I'm a bit confused regarding Blaenau Ffestiniog.

I watched the connecting line built between the former LNWR and GWR stations at Blaenau; from memory, the standard gauge line was on the south side of the formation, and the narrow gauge remained on the north side. Moreover, a separate arch was constructed beneath the A496 road solely for use by narrow gauge slate trains accessing the North station yard from the Fotty & Bowydd/Duffws/etc quarries. Wikipedia states that the connection between the two former stations opened in 1964, but that seems a bit late to me; however, if it is correct, for BR to have constructed an overbridge to permit slate from the quarries to enter the yard by narrow gauge railway, there must still have been some slate traffic using the Conwy Valley branch at that time.

I also recall seeing a narrow gauge slate train entering the yard at the north western corner on the link from the Oakley Quarry; I can't be specific on the date, but it must have been in the 1960-1964 period.

According to Wikipedia, Blaenau Ffestiniog North closed to general freight in May 1964, but wagonload continued until 1982; again, I would have thought the 1964 date to be early, as it was usual to pass a local freight (usually hauled by an Ivatt class 2 2-6-2T) on a down-hill service when going up-hill on a morning DMU. There always also seemed to be a BR Thorneycroft lorry parked-up on the platform at North station at that time! Moreover, I've also found a photo of the branch freight at Betws-y-Coed in 1965, and this includes in the formation a shock wagon; these were often used to carry slate.

Finally, Nantlle.

Slate traffic from Nantlle also has the distinction of being the last use of horses on BR; (try this link to the Wikipedia entry for the Nantlle Railway which shows a horse-drawn slate train in 1959, and reference is also made in the entry to a demonstration being given as to how the horses were worked at the Festiniog Railway's Centenary of Steam celebration in 1963: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantlle_Railway); however, the poor horse died right at the end of the railway's life, and it was replaced by a tractor by the time the narrow gauge portion closed in December 1963 and was also used for a railtour in October of the same year - see: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5225/5551042268_18632765f9_b.jpg

This slate traffic was handled in two parts; horses/a tractor pulled the slate on the narrow gauge section of the line between the quarries and Nantlle station, and then it was transshipped to standard gauge wagons for the rest of the branch to Pen-y-Groes, and then via Caernarfon to join the North Wales coast main line at Menai Bridge for onward transit to the ultimate destination. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that slate from Nantlle continued until late in 1963. Every time I saw the Nantlle branch freight it was hauled by a Stanier '5' with the loco facing towards Nantlle.

Finally, recovery of slate waste from the Blaenau tips for re-use.

Some was removed in about 1980, crushed, and then used to raise the level of the land in Glanypwll, to the west of the A496 Pencefn Road; sorry I can't be more specific about the date, but it was certainly before the Festiniog Railway re-opened back to Blaenau (in 1982) as some of the old trackbed - adjacent to North Western Road - was used to transport the waste between the slate tips being recovered and the land were it was being "dumped".

Obviously, most of this is from memory, but I have tried to validate what I remember from published sources wherever possible
 

DaveB10780

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Blaenau has been in the National Park for almost a decade now. I think it was around 2011 that the ridiculous exclusion of Blaenau ended.
Nobody seems to have told the Ordnance Survey about this so I wonder where this statement is substantiated.
 

Meerkat

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You just need to loose your blinkers, do some research, and walk around the place to realise what an historic treasure it is. What will it take to stop the ill-informed sneers?

I did walk around the place this spring. It was grim due to the rain (I was told it is usually raining there, it wasn’t raining on the coast), but even without the rain it was just a fairly large village with a handful of shop along narrow pavements on a main road. Nothing looked welcoming so I grabbed a sandwich from the Co-op and went back to sit under the platform shelter.
I had previously driven through ten years ago, and it looked liked somewhere you wanted to actively avoid stopping.
And before I am accused of just being a bitter Englishman I really enjoyed the rest of my time in the area and intend to go back soon.
 

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krus_aragon

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@grumpyoldman01 that looks like a fairly accurate summary, thanks. (Slate was of course transported by standard gauge rail before the 1950s too.)

I did walk around the place this spring. It was grim due to the rain (I was told it is usually raining there, it wasn’t raining on the coast), but even without the rain it was just a fairly large village with a handful of shop along narrow pavements on a main road. Nothing looked welcoming so I grabbed a sandwich from the Co-op and went back to sit under the platform shelter.
On your next visit, consider the Model Bakery across the road from the Co-op: as I mentioned upthread, it has both the usual village bakey fare and some kurdish specialities.
 

Leeds1970

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Glan Conwy freight yard was provided to replace the facilities that were lost at Colwyn bay as part of the building of the A55. It consisted of a coal off loading point and an area for fuel tanks (home heating?), some redundant wagons (not many) were also stored and later cut up on the site.

Looking from platform 4, the access line was via a long siding that passed under the right hand arch of the over bridge the loco off the Amlwch tanks was usually used to service the terminal. if slate waste was to run from that terminal the line would need to be completely renewed along with a couple of sidings at Llandudno junction to allow trains to be split /joined due to the limited room at the terminal if it is still there (or available to be used).

Penmaenmawr as far as I am aware the issue was the actual quarry itself - if I remember correctly it was something to do with a lack of washing plant for the stone before being loaded. the sidings themselves were of sufficient length to handle 2x37 and a long rake of c.80 ton RMC wagons, which was a delight to see and hear at full power alongside the sea wall at Towyn.

With regard to the Ffestiniog line previous posts are correct that it was initially spared closure to serve the power plant. However during the 1980s local BR managers based Chester put in considerable efforts to promote the line (and do tie ups with F.R) which did start to bear results but due to reorganisations and sectorisation, resulting in arms length remote management and stricter financial targets the rot started again..

Arriva winning the franchise for Wales did not help the line (or the main line); as they were and still are the dominant bus operator, there was little incentive to operate the line when they could and regularly did just run a bus instead of a TRAIN..
 

krus_aragon

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Looking from platform 4, the access line was via a long siding that passed under the right hand arch of the over bridge the loco off the Amlwch tanks was usually used to service the terminal. if slate waste was to run from that terminal the line would need to be completely renewed along with a couple of sidings at Llandudno junction to allow trains to be split /joined due to the limited room at the terminal if it is still there (or available to be used).
There was also a run-round at Conwy Quay sidings that helped with the logisitcs of getting trains in and out of the freight terminal, as I understand things.

Arriva winning the franchise for Wales did not help the line (or the main line); as they were and still are the dominant bus operator, there was little incentive to operate the line when they could and regularly did just run a bus instead of a TRAIN..
Though they found the bus service wasn't enough of a money spinner for them, and after a few years of jigging the timetable and routes around they stopped running bus services in the Conwy Valley three years ago.
 

Leeds1970

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There was also a run-round at Conwy Quay sidings that helped with the logisitcs of getting trains in and out of the freight terminal, as I understand things.


Though they found the bus service wasn't enough of a money spinner for them, and after a few years of jigging the timetable and routes around they stopped running bus services in the Conwy Valley three years ago.
the quay sdg,s was a single line from the main yard down to the quayside - access to this line from the down main were by way of a facing point onto the quay (very rare) and reverse into the yard or stop on the down main and reverse directly into the yard (usual practice). it was the track layout that gave the impression of a run round however there was no signalled route to allow quay - DM -yard (or reverse of)
 

Belperpete

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I watched the connecting line built between the former LNWR and GWR stations at Blaenau; from memory, the standard gauge line was on the south side of the formation, and the narrow gauge remained on the north side. Moreover, a separate arch was constructed beneath the A496 road solely for use by narrow gauge slate trains accessing the North station yard from the Fotty & Bowydd/Duffws/etc quarries. Wikipedia states that the connection between the two former stations opened in 1964, but that seems a bit late to me; however, if it is correct, for BR to have constructed an overbridge to permit slate from the quarries to enter the yard by narrow gauge railway, there must still have been some slate traffic using the Conwy Valley branch at that time.
Are you sure the overbridge was built by BR? I thought it was built when the new road to TanyGrisiau power station was built (going over that overbridge).
 

StuartH

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Glan Conwy freight yard was provided to replace the facilities that were lost at Colwyn bay as part of the building of the A55. It consisted of a coal off loading point and an area for fuel tanks (home heating?), some redundant wagons (not many) were also stored and later cut up on the site.

Looking from platform 4, the access line was via a long siding that passed under the right hand arch of the over bridge the loco off the Amlwch tanks was usually used to service the terminal. if slate waste was to run from that terminal the line would need to be completely renewed along with a couple of sidings at Llandudno junction to allow trains to be split /joined due to the limited room at the terminal if it is still there (or available to be used).

Penmaenmawr as far as I am aware the issue was the actual quarry itself - if I remember correctly it was something to do with a lack of washing plant for the stone before being loaded. the sidings themselves were of sufficient length to handle 2x37 and a long rake of c.80 ton RMC wagons, which was a delight to see and hear at full power alongside the sea wall at Towyn.

With regard to the Ffestiniog line previous posts are correct that it was initially spared closure to serve the power plant. However during the 1980s local BR managers based Chester put in considerable efforts to promote the line (and do tie ups with F.R) which did start to bear results but due to reorganisations and sectorisation, resulting in arms length remote management and stricter financial targets the rot started again..

Arriva winning the franchise for Wales did not help the line (or the main line); as they were and still are the dominant bus operator, there was little incentive to operate the line when they could and regularly did just run a bus instead of a TRAIN..
The terminal ground is currently used as a storage facility if its where I think it is. My contractor has the end V shaped bit nearest the line. It would take a lot of track renewal to bring it back into service.
 

krus_aragon

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the quay sdg,s was a single line from the main yard down to the quayside - access to this line from the down main were by way of a facing point onto the quay (very rare) and reverse into the yard or stop on the down main and reverse directly into the yard (usual practice). it was the track layout that gave the impression of a run round however there was no signalled route to allow quay - DM -yard (or reverse of)
I meant to suggest that there was a loop on (the approach to) the quay sidings, as opposed to the quay sidings forming a loop with the down main. I will however yeild to your recollections of how it was actually used. (Did trains leaving the yard to head toward Chester propel out onto the up line, or run around in the station, rather than shunt via the quay sidings?)
 
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