Sleeper trains future

[142094]

That could work - one of the main costs with sleeper trains is the fact that they don't earn any revenue during the day. However, I'm not sure whether people these days like to travel in compartment stock.

One of the main growth markets in transport is the budget sector - so if new sleeper services could be created with either converted or new stock, and with competetive prices, then a TOC could be onto a winner. Not everyone wants to travel overnight on a Megabus.

 

[Yew]

That could work - one of the main costs with sleeper trains is the fact that they don't earn any revenue during the day. However, I'm not sure whether people these days like to travel in compartment stock.

One of the main growth markets in transport is the budget sector - so if new sleeper services could be created with either converted or new stock, and with competetive prices, then a TOC could be onto a winner. Not everyone wants to travel overnight on a Megabus.

Im trying to work out a way that Mk1 compartment stock could have a similar layout to a sleeper at night, but the same as a MK1 at daytime

Looking at the MK1 layout, it Had 7 compartments in a 20m carriage. Looking on google the compartment size is 6'6", so approimately 2M. If we used a 23m wheelbase, that would mean we can fit compartments, and a 2m Attendnat compartment. Plus any savings from not having the third door, and not having a toilet at both ends. So If we say we can fit;

• 9x 2m sleeper compartments @19m
• 2x toilets - Side by side @1m
• 1 Attendant Compartment @1m

Then that gives us a meter each end for the vestibule space, although that might be a bit tight. This would mean that in Day mode, we could fit 6x9= 54 passengers in each compartment, and in nightmode we would have 18 berths. Although this capacity might be lower than the current sleeper stock, the ability to be used in the day should make up for it. Also it allows any unused berths to be used as early morning seating... If someone really wants to catch a 5am train from manchester to london.

 

[sprinterguy]

Right, this might actually be a good idea.

In australia they have trains like this.
Daytime

Nighttime

Maybe we could order some stock that works in a similar way? With say 4 of those carriages that act as compartment stock in the day, some first class accomodation (seated sleeper) and a TRFB/SB as a lounge car.

I've thought for a while, at the suggestion of one of my friends, that this could be a good idea. However I would have the compartments acting as the first class portion of the train during the day, so perhaps four carriages out of a nine carriage train if the daft ratio on the Pendolinos was taken as an example to act as a more sensible balance in this instance.

If you wanted to be really clever you could use smart glass as a large proportion of the partition between the compartment and the corridor to allow the guard to monitor activity during the day but offer total privacy at night.

 

[RobShipway]

I've thought for a while, at the suggestion of one of my friends, that this could be a good idea. However I would have the compartments acting as the first class portion of the train during the day, so perhaps four carriages out of a nine carriage train if the daft ratio on the Pendolinos was taken as an example to act as a more sensible balance in this instance.

If you wanted to be really clever you could use smart glass as a large proportion of the partition between the compartment and the corridor to allow the guard to monitor activity during the day but offer total privacy at night.

There used to be trains that worked like this in Germany as I remember around the time the Berlin wall was coming down, travelling on a train overnight like the photos from Dusseldorf Airport station to Berlin.

 

[tbtc]

You can also do the same from London to Glasgow/Edinburgh. However, the future of these cheap domestic flights is not clear. The South West to Scotland sleeper I believe went from Plymouth not Cardiff and I'm not sure the majority of passengers were from Bristol.

Aye, but there's always been flights from London to Glasgow/ Edinburgh, and its a big enough market for rail to survive with a share of (and rail has always been part of).

Doing a long distance sleeper from Bristol to Glasgow is a much smaller market, and a hard one for rail to find a niche in (since it'd be starting from scratch, in the overnight market).

I mentioned Cardiff because I know that they have early morning flights to Edinburgh (having used them before) - I don't know whether Plymouth have such flights.

 

[HSTEd]

Would it be possible for a Plymouth-Edinburgh sleeper to be entirely electrically operated?
I would assume that if it was it would have to go via London.

 

[Zoe]

Doing a long distance sleeper from Bristol to Glasgow is a much smaller market, and a hard one for rail to find a niche in (since it'd be starting from scratch, in the overnight market).

I'm not sure Bristol was where the majority of passengers boraded though.

I mentioned Cardiff because I know that they have early morning flights to Edinburgh (having used them before) - I don't know whether Plymouth have such flights.

Plymouth Airport has absoluely no flights at all these days as the airport has closed.

Also don't forget that times are changing and it may well be that in the future there won't be cheap domestic flights.

 

[sprinterguy]

There used to be trains that worked like this in Germany as I remember around the time the Berlin wall was coming down, travelling on a train overnight like the photos from Dusseldorf Airport station to Berlin.

There still is a similar design of sleeper used on the City Night Line sleepers across Europe, so it seems that it works well enough on the continent.

 

[Yew]

I've thought for a while, at the suggestion of one of my friends, that this could be a good idea. However I would have the compartments acting as the first class portion of the train during the day, so perhaps four carriages out of a nine carriage train if the daft ratio on the Pendolinos was taken as an example to act as a more sensible balance in this instance.

If you wanted to be really clever you could use smart glass as a large proportion of the partition between the compartment and the corridor to allow the guard to monitor activity during the day but offer total privacy at night.

So if we take the 4/9 ratio. We would have 72 berths. then say the Buffet car and one other become a lounge (lots of tables). Then the remaining 3 cars become seated sleeper? although the standard class seats might not be the best for sleeping.....

Maybe we could put 8 in a compartment, and have them as standard. then have 6 carriages of Standard/sleeper. Then use one First class carriage and a First buffet as a lounge, and the remaining two carriages as seated sleeper? Could that work?

Can anyone think of a way to get a sink and mirror in the room, all I can think of would be a pull down thing above the seat on the non-bed side?

 

[tbtc]

Would it be possible for a Plymouth-Edinburgh sleeper to be entirely electrically operated?
I would assume that if it was it would have to go via London.

There's no electrification anywhere near Plymouth at the moment. Even when the GWML is wired (based on current plans) the wires won't go beyond Bristol.

Also don't forget that times are changing and it may well be that the days of cheap domestic flights are numbered.

True, but there's no guarantee that people would still be making those journeys in the longer term, or would pay more for a train.

The "cheap flights won't last forever" argument is persuasive (see the Holyhead threads...), but would you commit to spending millions on that assumption? People were saying it ten years ago and Ryanair etc are still with us.

 

[Zoe]

True, but there's no guarantee that people would still be making those journeys in the longer term, or would pay more for a train.

The "cheap flights won't last forever" argument is persuasive (see the Holyhead threads...), but would you commit to spending millions on that assumption? People were saying it ten years ago and Ryanair etc are still with us.

Climate change and peak oil are much more pressing concerns than they were even ten years ago. It's better to invest now in the alternatives forms of transport rather than wait and find we don't have the infrastrucure to cope when there are no other options.

 

[RobShipway]

So if we take the 4/9 ratio. We would have 72 berths. then say the Buffet car and one other become a lounge (lots of tables). Then the remaining 3 cars become seated sleeper? although the standard class seats might not be the best for sleeping.....

Maybe we could put 8 in a compartment, and have them as standard. then have 6 carriages of Standard/sleeper. Then use one First class carriage and a First buffet as a lounge, and the remaining two carriages as seated sleeper? Could that work?

Can anyone think of a way to get a sink and mirror in the room, all I can think of would be a pull down thing above the seat on the non-bed side?

Surely the the full length Mirror could be on the back of the door of the Compartment as they do on the continent?

With regards the sink, that could be hidden within a small wardrobe unit if there is space on one side, with a head height mirror above and the other side with hangers for hanging coats & clothes.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Right, I'm back... looks like the debate is going nicely now; there seems to be little for me to comment on.

One point... comparing with the 20m Mk1 Sleeper is not comparing like with like; because I am proposing an articulated unit I have been a bit creative with the door positions and done them like Eurostar's doors where the carriages generally only have one door per side, but arranged in a way that nowhere is more than half a carriage length away from a door. similarly I have distributed the toilets around the unit a bit. The end result is that a greater proportion of the 20m is available foe the sleeping cabins.


If you are going to be talking couchette arrangements, as someone suggests above, the sink could be a small corner unit sink ( which is the type I propose for the cabins in the units anyway ) with a fold down table surface on top of it - which is in any case is exactly what is done with the bigger sinks in the present Sleeper cabins; they have a fold down table over them. You similarly would not need to worry about the mirror in the daytime - virtually all trains used to have mirrors in each compartment anyway. ( Though these days I'd suggest any daytime carriage mirror should be made of scratch resistant armoured glass...!! ).

One other point about couchettes - what sort of diagram could you use them on in the daytime? The point often made about Sleepers having low utilisation refers to the number of trips on each day's ( night's?! ) diagram; in terms of hours per day the carriages get a similar usage to most of the rest of the fleet. After allowing for the time to switch from beds to seats and vice versa you're only really going to be able to use them on short / medium distance off peak services; they aren't likely to be available in the peak which is when extra capacity is most useful. You'd also need a larger build as you'd need a bigger fleet for maintenance cover.

 

[ainsworth74]

One other point about couchettes - what sort of diagram could you use them on in the daytime?

Well in Scotland I could see them running a few services inbetween Sleeper turns. For example the Inverness sleeper arrives 0838 so allowing a few hours to turn it around into day stock could then see it running the 1101 Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh (arr 1326) and then the return leg leaving Kyle at 1435 which sees it back at Inverness for 1706 leaving plenty of time to turn it around back into sleeper stock for that nights service to Euston. Something similar is possible using the Aberdeen sleeper and running a service to Inverness and back (actually it might be possible to fit in two return journey's between sleeper turns).

Now at the London end of operation the possibility for day time running is perhaps a bit more limited, but certainly at the Scottish end I think there are opportunities. Now whether or not they make financial sense is another matter entirely.

 

[ryan125hst]

Would it be possible to have cabins containing 3 berths and couchettes containing 6 berths like the City Night Line trains I mentioned earlier, or is our loading gauge to restrictive for this?

It would certainly help to increase capacity if it was possible.

 

[Maxfly]

Well in Scotland I could see them running a few services inbetween Sleeper turns. For example the Inverness sleeper arrives 0838 so allowing a few hours to turn it around into day stock could then see it running the 1101 Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh (arr 1326) and then the return leg leaving Kyle at 1435 which sees it back at Inverness for 1706 leaving plenty of time to turn it around back into sleeper stock for that nights service to Euston. Something similar is possible using the Aberdeen sleeper and running a service to Inverness and back (actually it might be possible to fit in two return journey's between sleeper turns).

Now at the London end of operation the possibility for day time running is perhaps a bit more limited, but certainly at the Scottish end I think there are opportunities. Now whether or not they make financial sense is another matter entirely.

Dependant on maintenance requirements tbh as Inverness is the home depot when here they can sometimes be tight getting them back out to the platform in time which suggests that a full days maintenace is required when they reach here. There have been a great many times when multiple shunts have been required even up to half hour before departure

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Would it be possible to have cabins containing 3 berths and couchettes containing 6 berths like the City Night Line trains I mentioned earlier, or is our loading gauge to restrictive for this?

It would certainly help to increase capacity if it was possible.

Our loading guage is too restrictive, I fear. One up, one down is the most we can do.

 

[RobShipway]

Dependant on maintenance requirements tbh as Inverness is the home depot when here they can sometimes be tight getting them back out to the platform in time which suggests that a full days maintenace is required when they reach here. There have been a great many times when multiple shunts have been required even up to half hour before departure

I cannot see Inverness still being the home depot, if the trains are not being run by Scotrail and instead I see them just going on from Glasgow to Edingburgh, where a run using them during the day to Newcastle or Sunderland and returning I can see being achievable, before going back to Haymarket.

The reason I say that I cannot see Inverness being the home depot, is on the basis of the trains being run by someone other than ScotRail, as the Scottish Government want to stop trains from England in passing further North than Glasgow or Edingburgh.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Dependant on maintenance requirements tbh as Inverness is the home depot when here they can sometimes be tight getting them back out to the platform in time which suggests that a full days maintenace is required when they reach here. There have been a great many times when multiple shunts have been required even up to half hour before departure

There wouldn't be anywhere near so much shunting going on if it was units, though, would there?

The timings for the Kyle run seem to work; would the unit length be a problem at the intermediate stations there? I'm not thinking about the platform lengths as SDO could sort that out, but the "overkill" factor in terms of the size of the train itself against the number of passengers? High summer - sure, but what are passenger volumes like for the rest of the year?

 

[IanXC]

The reason I say that I cannot see Inverness being the home depot, is on the basis of the trains being run by someone other than ScotRail, as the Scottish Government want to stop trains from England in passing further North than Glasgow or Edingburgh.

The report that came from seemed to be a kitchen sink job to start a full review of rail in Scotland. It also suggested scrapping the sleeper, or expanding it massively. So I wouldn't read to much into that!

 

[Maxfly]

I cannot see Inverness still being the home depot, if the trains are not being run by Scotrail and instead I see them just going on from Glasgow to Edingburgh, where a run using them during the day to Newcastle or Sunderland and returning I can see being achievable, before going back to Haymarket.

The reason I say that I cannot see Inverness being the home depot, is on the basis of the trains being run by someone other than ScotRail, as the Scottish Government want to stop trains from England in passing further North than Glasgow or Edingburgh.

A fair point actually haha, suppose it would go to a tendering process?

There wouldn't be anywhere near so much shunting going on if it was units, though, would there?

The timings for the Kyle run seem to work; would the unit length be a problem at the intermediate stations there? I'm not thinking about the platform lengths as SDO could sort that out, but the "overkill" factor in terms of the size of the train itself against the number of passengers? High summer - sure, but what are passenger volumes like for the rest of the year?

Of course but I was more meaning that the length of maintenace takes up so much time that the shunting was taking place kind of last minute. Your absolutely right of course about there being less shunting but would maintenace downtime during the day be small enough to allow a service to kyle for example then? Just assuming Inverness stays as the home depot for the moment of course.

 

[Mike C]

My only observation is that the vehicles may only be 20m long but as they are articulated this also means 20m between bogie pivots. This is considerably greater than the ~16m pivot distance of a mk3 and even longer than the 18.7m of a Eurostar/TGV standard vehicle. Given the gauging issues encountered by 373 on routes with tight curves due to centre throw, and the type of routes used by this stock, I think this would be a major problem.

Apologies if this has been already mentioned. It has taken me quite a while to type this on a phone let alone read all 6 pages.

 

[junglejames]

My only observation is that the vehicles may only be 20m long but as they are articulated this also means 20m between bogie pivots. This is considerably greater than the ~16m pivot distance of a mk3 and even longer than the 18.7m of a Eurostar/TGV standard vehicle. Given the gauging issues encountered by 373 on routes with tight curves due to centre throw, and the type of routes used by this stock, I think this would be a major problem.

Apologies if this has been already mentioned. It has taken me quite a while to type this on a phone let alone read all 6 pages.

I wondered if this would be a problem, but wasnt sure of the length of the Eurostar coaches. They 18.7m are they? So thats basically the maximum length of coach this sleeper unit could have then. If it can even get away with that.

 

[sprinterguy]

I wondered if this would be a problem, but wasnt sure of the length of the Eurostar coaches. They 18.7m are they? So thats basically the maximum length of coach this sleeper unit could have then. If it can even get away with that.

The intermediate carriages of the APT-P are/were 21 metres long and they were articulated. Plus they seemed to have less problems with gauging on the UK network than either Pendolinos or Eurostars.

 

[Aictos]

I've actually brought RAIL which is a rarity in it's self and have read the article in full, I actually quite like the author's idea of moving towards MUs which would decrease costs of sleeper operations quite a bit.

Not sure about a Manchester/Liverpool to London Sleeper though as I believe they are far too close for a sleeper operation however a hourly Class 221 would more then suffice in the twilight hours.

However if you were re-introduce a South West to North East/Scotland sleeper that would be viable and one which should happen as to the Sleepers as both are operated by First at the moment they should have been merged together as First Sleepers and operated in a common pool both locos and coaches using Inverness and Wembley? as the maintenance depots.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Not sure about a Manchester/Liverpool to London Sleeper though as I believe they are far too close for a sleeper operation however a hourly Class 221 would more then suffice in the twilight hours.

As a standalone from London, true - which is why I suggested it goes via Reading to Birmingham as one where it splits and each half joins half a train from the South West each to Liverpool / Manchester.

While it is true the first daytime arrivals from London in Liverpool / Manchester are 08.01 and 08.28 respectively, the departure times from Euston are 05.27 and 06.17. You aren't going to get much sleep the night before if you want to catch a departure at that time...

If you wanted to get to either destination for an 09.00 meeting, wouldn't you rather leave London at about 23.00 or midnight and wake up at around 07.00 at your destination after a leisurely journey while you sleep?

 

[dubscottie]

Did read the article and it is the biggest pie in the sky. But as I have been told I am wrong whatever I say so..

What you propose is a backward step.. And a maintenance nightmare. 10 berths per coach.. Keep the Mk3's.

You are just Bringing back 3rd class to BR!

I have 100's of RAIL, Modern Railways, Railway etc from 1950-2000 and your article reminds me of some other "great ideas".

In 5 years, we will be laughing that someone suggested MU's as sleepers!!

 

[HSTEd]

Did read the article and it is the biggest pie in the sky. But as I have been told I am wrong whatever I say so..

What you propose is a backward step.. And a maintenance nightmare. 10 berths per coach.. Keep the Mk3's.

You are just Bringing back 3rd class to BR!

I have 100's of RAIL, Modern Railways, Railway etc from 1950-2000 and your article reminds me of some other "great ideas".

In 5 years, we will be laughing that someone suggested MU's as sleepers!!

Well in 5 years at the current rate we will be laughing that someone suggested sleepers trains at all the way things are going (with the Scottish refurb money and the Westminster matching funds looking doubtful now).

The list of locomotives required for the Cal Sleeper is obscene, either we adopt push pull working or we go for multiple units, there is no other real option.

 

[87015]

Well in 5 years at the current rate we will be laughing that someone suggested sleepers trains at all the way things are going (with the Scottish refurb money and the Westminster matching funds looking doubtful now).

The list of locomotives required for the Cal Sleeper is obscene, either we adopt push pull working or we go for multiple units, there is no other real option.

Or go back to having a proper joined up railway mentality - the inefficiency is down to the setup not the fact that its a loco-hauled train. Go abroad and you'll see the locos off the various CNL/EN portions abroad don't sit around all day working for the return working, they head off on freight or passenger work and in most cases won't be seen going back the previous night. You'd have the locos ending up in a different country would be more of a stopper to such workings than privatisation over here, but apparently not...

 

[HSTEd]

Or go back to having a proper joined up railway mentality - the inefficiency is down to the setup not the fact that its a loco-hauled train. Go abroad and you'll see the locos off the various CNL/EN portions abroad don't sit around all day working for the return working, they head off on freight or passenger work and in most cases won't be seen going back the previous night. You'd have the locos ending up in a different country would be more of a stopper to such workings than privatisation over here, but apparently not...

There is also the lack of runaround loops at Euston and Glasgow which mean you need two locomotives tied up to recover the sleeper.

Push pull working gets you around that as the locomotive that brings the train in isn't trapped there for the length of time the train is there.

Ofcourse shifting the sleeper into the soon to be far less busy King's Cross does solve some of these issues, but without DBSOs this gets troublesome.

EDIT:
As to having multiple units giving poor ride quality or whatever, I do note that there are two vehicles in each component of the Lowland sleeper that are not sleeping carriages (The lounge and seated vehicle).
This means that the entire formation would have four powered vehicles which could easily have 3200hp, which is probably sufficient to propel the entire formation, although as it might have difficulty with Shap should probably run on the ECML.

This would also require distributed transformers in all four power cars and would allow the actual sleeper carriages to be push pull wired conventional hauled stock (apart from one driving vehicle placed on the opposite end of the train)