Slower route not permitted, even when trains run on it much earlier/later than the fastest route

[arb]

This is kind of inspired by the "quickest route not permitted" thread that is ongoing at the moment.

A journey I make semi-regularly is Sheffield to Ely. The valid routes for this journey involve getting from Sheffield to Peterborough (via one of many different allowed routes) and then direct from Peterborough to Ely. The last train from Peterborough to Ely arrives in Ely sometime around 22:45. However, if from Peterborough, you were allowed to travel to Stevenage, then Cambridge, then Ely, you could travel later. The last train via this route arrives in Ely at approximately 00:30, almost two hours later. Being a longer route, this only equates to leaving Sheffield around an hour later, not two hours later, but there are many times when I've found it useful to do this.

Tickets to Cambridge are available for both routes, either "via Ely" or "not via London" (which effectively means via Stevenage), so I've always found it odd that there is no ticket to Ely via Stevenage. It's made even more confusing because the (only available) ticket to Ely is also routed "not via London", suggesting that via Stevenage is allowed like it is on the equivalent Cambridge "not via London" ticket. But it isn't allowed, because "not via London" doesn't actually mean "via Stevenage", the routeing guide doesn't allow travel via Stevenage, and journey planners show the route as needing two tickets. Personally I can work around this by buying a ticket to Cambridge, and using my season ticket between Cambridge and Ely, but without the season ticket it would be much more of a faff to deal with.

Are there any other journeys like this, where the valid route is more limited than an invalid route in terms of the times of day you can make the journey?

 

[Kilopylae]

London Paddington, Bristol, Reading etc. to Tiverton Parkway via Exeter St Davids is not permitted, even though all trains on that line call at Exeter and some don't call at Tiverton. Back in January I found myself at Taunton on a Saturday aiming to travel to Tiverton - the 16:34 out of Taunton came into Exeter at 16:59 and there was a 17:53 from Exeter arriving at Tiverton at 18:08, but the only permitted route was to stand around at Taunton until half six and end up in Tiverton at 18.45. That's both a waste of time and an annoyance as St David's is a significantly less bleak place to break one's journey than Taunton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ormskirk-Preston via Liverpool is not Permitted, which would be a silly route on a weekday but means there is no through ticket valid on a Sunday when there is no direct service.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Ormskirk-Preston via Liverpool is not Permitted, which would be a silly route on a weekday but means there is no through ticket valid on a Sunday when there is no direct service.

At least Ormskirk-Preston gets an evening service. Luxury! Kirkby-Wigan has no trains on a Sundays and in evenings Monday to Saturday. Similarly, a Kirkby-Wigan ticket cannot be used to travel via Liverpool.

 

[221129]

Back in January I found myself at Taunton on a Saturday aiming to travel to Tiverton - the 16:34 out of Taunton came into Exeter at 16:59 and there was a 17:53 from Exeter arriving at Tiverton at 18:08, but the only permitted route was to stand around at Taunton until half six and end up in Tiverton at 18.45.

There will have been several trains stopping at Tiverton between 1634 and 1830...

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least Ormskirk-Preston gets an evening service. Luxury! Kirkby-Wigan has no trains on a Sundays and in evenings Monday to Saturday. Similarly, a Kirkby-Wigan ticket cannot be used to travel via Liverpool.

In BR days it used to be considered Reasonable. I do understand the issue with it (Ormskirk-Preston is cheaper than Ormskirk-Wigan), but it could easily be fixed by setting a route Liverpool fare at the same price as Ormskirk-Wigan or a similar equivalent for the Kirkby line. The Marston Vale, which is in a similar position, has "route +London" fares as well.

It demonstrates the railway's breathtaking arrogance where the only correct answer[1] to showing up at Ormskirk asking for Preston on a Sunday (or Kirkby asking for Wigan) is "can't".

[1] given that they aren't supposed to suggest splits.

 

[philthetube]

Ormskirk-Preston via Liverpool is not Permitted, which would be a silly route on a weekday but means there is no through ticket valid on a Sunday when there is no direct service.

What would be the position if you had a ticket for that journey, or is all ticketing equipment incapable of selling it when not valid?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would be the position if you had a ticket for that journey, or is all ticketing equipment incapable of selling it when not valid?

There aren't any period fares, though you could probably get it from a TVM. If you did have a ticket there's no validity. I don't know what would be done if you did go via Liverpool as there's nothing to excess to.

It's this I have a big problem with - it should be possible, in any sensible fares system, to automatically construct a fare for literally any journey, issued as a single piece.

 

[Haywain]

There many such journeys where faster trains may provide a slightly quicker journey by using a ‘double back’ of significant distance. London to Huntingdon via Peterborough is just one such case.

Edit: This post should be quoting @Kilopylae above.

 

[alistairlees]

In BR days it used to be considered Reasonable. I do understand the issue with it (Ormskirk-Preston is cheaper than Ormskirk-Wigan), but it could easily be fixed by setting a route Liverpool fare at the same price as Ormskirk-Wigan or a similar equivalent for the Kirkby line. The Marston Vale, which is in a similar position, has "route +London" fares as well.

It demonstrates the railway's breathtaking arrogance where the only correct answer[1] to showing up at Ormskirk asking for Preston on a Sunday (or Kirkby asking for Wigan) is "can't".

[1] given that they aren't supposed to suggest splits.

I am sure that you would either:
(a) be sold a ticket to Liverpool, and asked to buy another ticket (for the Liverpool to Preston leg) there; or
(b) be sold both a ticket from Ormskirk to Liverpool, and another from Liverpool to Preston, at Ormskirk

There are a few journeys where there are no through fares, and where it is necessary to buy two tickets; there is no reason why a ticket office shouldn't sell you the tickets needed to make your journey.

 

[Richard Scott]

I never had any issues with a Caldicot - Cheltenham ticket going via Newport and Bristol Parkway despite being much further than direct route via Lydney. Not sure if it was a valid route but ticket was always accepted. Was useful when there was a two hour gap in services to do this route. Didn't make a habit of it if direct train available as was a bit of a faff!

 

[30907]

Peterborough to Ely is in round figures 30miles direct, 80 miles via Hitchin 90miles via Stevenage. I suspect this is one of the cases where the fossilisation of flexible fares at privatisation is to blame - back then I doubt there would be any useful connections to Ely via Stevenage (even now, without looking, I strongly suspect there is only the one southbound and none northbound!). Equally, I suspect if you travelled that way at that time with a NOT LONDON ticket you would have no problem.

 

[arb]

The London to King's Lynn trains certainly run much later than any other train in the area, which is what makes the journey via Stevenage possible. I could easily believe that they haven't always run as late as they do now, so I can see how the situation would have come about like you suggest.

Going via Stevenage does only gives you one extra journey option based on arrival times of journeys from Sheffield to Peterborough. Whether there are more options for just doing Peterborough to Ely, when you're not bound by arrival times from further north, I don't know. But that one extra journey option means leaving Sheffield at 20:30-ish rather than 19:30-ish - which is very useful for me!

I agree it's unlikely I'd have a problem going via Stevenage with that ticket, not least because I've never seen a ticket check on a Thameslink/Great Northern train at that time of night! However my main worry isn't a ticket check - it's being stranded somewhere due to disruption and then having to pay for a taxi myself (or at least not getting a refund on a taxi) because my ticket wasn't technically valid for the roundabout route.

 

[Kilopylae]

There will have been several trains stopping at Tiverton between 1634 and 1830...

A quick look at timetable T7 confirms that this is not the case.

There many such journeys where faster trains may provide a slightly quicker journey by using a ‘double back’ of significant distance. London to Huntingdon via Peterborough is just one such case.

Edit: This post should be quoting @Kilopylae above.

It particularly irks me in the case of Tiverton Parkway, as it would be permitted according to the normal rules of the routeing guide but is prevented by a negative easement (000076). It's only a double-back of one station and seems to be prohibited for no good reason, other than perhaps to stop passengers using tickets to Tiverton to travel to Exeter and then break their journey there, getting to St Davids on a slightly cheaper ticket.

 

[221129]

A quick look at timetable T7 confirms that this is not the case.



It particularly irks me in the case of Tiverton Parkway, as it would be permitted according to the normal rules of the routeing guide but is prevented by a negative easement (000076). It's only a double-back of one station and seems to be prohibited for no good reason, other than perhaps to stop passengers using tickets to Tiverton to travel to Exeter and then break their journey there, getting to St Davids on a slightly cheaper ticket.

There is no need for a double back to be permitted as there are 4 trains booked to call at Tiverton Parkway from Taunton between 1643 and 1830on a Saturday.

 

[221129]

A quick look at timetable T7 confirms that this is not the case

I must be imagining all the times I've worked the 1717 and 1817 departures from Taunton then.

 

[philthetube]

posted incorrect info

 

[JB_B]

A quick look at timetable T7 confirms that this is not the case.



It particularly irks me in the case of Tiverton Parkway, as it would be permitted according to the normal rules of the routeing guide but is prevented by a negative easement (000076). It's only a double-back of one station and seems to be prohibited for no good reason, other than perhaps to stop passengers using tickets to Tiverton to travel to Exeter and then break their journey there, getting to St Davids on a slightly cheaper ticket.

I'm not sure that's right. For origins Paddington/Reading/Bristol, Exeter Group fails the fare check as a destination routeing point for Tiverton Parkway, so I don't think you could go via Exeter even if 000076 was removed.

 

[Haywain]

it would be permitted according to the normal rules of the routeing guide

What are these 'normal' rules that you believe apply?

 

[CrispyUK]

There will have been several trains stopping at Tiverton between 1634 and 1830...

A quick look at timetable T7 confirms that this is not the case.

Timetable T7 doesn’t show the full service between Taunton and Tiverton Parkway, you need Timetable D (Devon) which shows several services as identified by 221129:

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/timetables/2019/december-15-v2/d-web-tt.pdf?la=en

 

[bunnahabhain]

Ormskirk-Preston via Liverpool is not Permitted, which would be a silly route on a weekday but means there is no through ticket valid on a Sunday when there is no direct service.

Worksop to Nottingham used to have a similar issue in that there never used to be a ticket valid via Sheffield on a Sunday, there is now a 'via Mansfield' and 'any permitted' routing available, in addition to the previous 'via Lincoln' and 'via Grantham' routings.

Similar issues also existed for Nottingham to Lincoln as the first direct service used to be at 1630 from Nottingham, some passengers would attempt to travel via Grantham or Sheffield.

 

[py_megapixel]

IIRC it used to be nearly impossible to use a direct ticket from stations south of Stockport to anywhere on the branch to Hadfield and Glossop (old Woodhead line) because the only permitted route was via Denton, which is served a grand total of once per week.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Bletchley-Bedford or vice versa, no trains on Sunday/Bank Holidays so two tickets are required to go via STP/Euston or Leicester/Nuneaton at greater expense. It's easier to take the X5 bus

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bletchley-Bedford or vice versa, no trains on Sunday/Bank Holidays so two tickets are required to go via STP/Euston or Leicester/Nuneaton at greater expense.

No, there's a route +LONDON fare. Though it's pricey, sometimes a split is cheaper if I recall.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

It's easier to take the X5 bus

That's what anyone with any sense would do.

 

[infobleep]

In normal times, aka not current timetables, if you wish to go from Guildford to East Croydon, the last train on a single ticket is 23:39 from Guildford to Waterloo. Arriving in at 0:33. Then you walk to Blackfairrs and get the 1:40. You arrive into East Croydon at 02:06. It takes 2 hours 27 minutes. I don't know how long the wait at London Blaxkfaires would be as they allow 15 minutes to get out of Waterloo Station in addition to the 28 minutes it takes to walk between the two. You officially get to London Blackfaires at 01:16.

However you can leave 42 minutes later and avoid the walk, if you get 0:21 to Gatwick Airport and then pick up the 01:46 to East Croydon. This gets you in just 3 minutes later. There is a wait of 39 minutes but would you rather wist at Gatwick Airport or London Blackfairrs? I'd choose Gatwick Airport myself. The overall journey is only 1 hour 48 minutes. Thus saving you 39 minutes!

Alas due to the double bavk between Redhill and Gatwick Airport, no ticket is avilable.

 

[Envy123]

There many such journeys where faster trains may provide a slightly quicker journey by using a ‘double back’ of significant distance. London to Huntingdon via Peterborough is just one such case.

Edit: This post should be quoting @Kilopylae above.

The TfL journey planner does say to do the double-back sometimes, when including the wait, it will be faster to get to London King's Cross.

But ticketing that would be an absolute nightmare and keyGo isn't valid to Peterborough, sadly.