Smart Cards

[Chris999999]

Where are the railways going with smartcards? Progress seems to be very slow and ticket buying doesn't seem to have changed much in 20 years.

I live in South West Trains land (though I don't use their website anymore since it no longer remembers me), but I regularly travel on Southern, Cross Country, Great Western, Virgin West and East Coast, and Scotrail. I know SWT and Southern have some limited smartcard availability (which I don't have), but am I going to have to get a card from each of the train companies, and how will this work if I make a journey using several of them?

What would be ideal is to get a card I can use anywhere on the railways. Then buy a ticket (or several) on line and just use them without all the hassle of queuing to collect paper tickets at inadequately staffed stations.

I realise there are differences here from Oyster which I often use, but I have to say it works well.

I'm sure this is not beyond the capability of current technology, but am I asking for something beyond the capability of the rail industry?

 

[mattdickinson]

Where are the railways going with smartcards? Progress seems to be very slow and ticket buying doesn't seem to have changed much in 20 years.

I live in South West Trains land (though I don't use their website anymore since it no longer remembers me), but I regularly travel on Southern, Cross Country, Great Western, Virgin West and East Coast, and Scotrail. I know SWT and Southern have some limited smartcard availability (which I don't have), but am I going to have to get a card from each of the train companies, and how will this work if I make a journey using several of them?

What would be ideal is to get a card I can use anywhere on the railways. Then buy a ticket (or several) on line and just use them without all the hassle of queuing to collect paper tickets at inadequately staffed stations.

I realise there are differences here from Oyster which I often use, but I have to say it works well.

I'm sure this is not beyond the capability of current technology, but am I asking for something beyond the capability of the rail industry?

South East Flexible Ticketing should eventually, in theory, lead to all the cards issued by TOCs in the South East being interavailable. Currently, any ITSO card can be used to load tickets at SWT TVMs, and the Newcastle Metro. Greater Manchester also claim this to be possible.

 

[Chris999999]

South East Flexible Ticketing should eventually, in theory, lead to all the cards issued by TOCs in the South East being interavailable. Currently, any ITSO card can be used to load tickets at SWT TVMs, and the Newcastle Metro. Greater Manchester also claim this to be possible.

Thanks. That doesn't seem to be very hopeful then:

"..eventually, in theory.." - so not for a very long time.
"..in the South East.." - so no good if I venture north of London (other than metro areas)
"..load tickets at SWT TVMs..." so I will still have to queue at the station

ie worse than the current paper tickets.

I guess I was just being optomistic that we might see significant improvements in ticket buying in the UK in the near future. It seems that it isn't going to happen.

 

[najaB]

"..load tickets at SWT TVMs..." so I will still have to queue at the station

How else do you propose that the ticket gets onto the card?

 

[ictl]

How else do you propose that the ticket gets onto the card?

Buy online then tap in at the barrier.

 

[najaB]

Buy online then tap in at the barrier.

I believe you can do so on validators at many stations, not sure about the barrier as it would probably slow down passenger flow.

 

[mattdickinson]

Buy online then tap in at the barrier.

As far as I know, the only TOC to offer this for single and return tickets is Scotrail.

 

[Chris999999]

How else do you propose that the ticket gets onto the card?

Maybe the gate reader at the starting station will update the card, but once I've bought a ticket for my card, any card reader should be able to identify this fact. Much the same as Oyster where I load money onto my card online. Prepaid debit cards are much the same.

I don't expect to have to queue for an inadequate number of TVMs. This 20th century thinking needs to be consigned to the bin.

 

[MikeWh]

I believe you can do so on validators at many stations, not sure about the barrier as it would probably slow down passenger flow.

I doubt it. Accepting a travelcard or PAYG topup on Oyster as you touch in adds nothing to the time taken.

 

[mattdickinson]

As far as I know, the only TOC to offer this for single and return tickets is Scotrail.

Southern and SWT also.

 

[ictl]

I believe you can do so on validators at many stations, not sure about the barrier as it would probably slow down passenger flow.

What I think Chris999999 is getting at is to load any ticket on any ITSO smartcard.

For example, a ticket for the journey Southend Central - Shoeburyness can be bought online on the c2c website to be loaded on to a c2c smartcard, but cannot be loaded on to a Greater Anglia smartcard. (I have both c2c and Greater Anglia smartcards. Both TOC websites allow you to add additional smartcards to your account by entering the smartcard number. c2c rejects GA smartcard numbers, and vice-versa.)

 

[najaB]

I doubt it. Accepting a travelcard or PAYG topup on Oyster as you touch in adds nothing to the time taken.

I've not done either, but I'm just imagining the crush when a full trainload of passengers heads for the barriers and the first person in the queue finds that their ticket doesn't load.

I'll bow to your experience.

 

[Camden]

Dedicated cards and loading them up is just daft, given contactless payment technology.

For those without contactless bank cards, such as tourists, etc, you could easily replicate the functionality by having a government owned "bank" that people paid money into. Essentially topping up their cards, with cash. No ID checks necessary of course, since it's only low value and maximum amounts allowed in an account.

Government gets interest on the accounts, customer gets a debit card they can tap in/out with. ITSO simple I can't understand why these dedicated cards are persisted with.

 

[Deerfold]

Dedicated cards and loading them up is just daft, given contactless payment technology.

For those without contactless bank cards, such as tourists, etc, you could easily replicate the functionality by having a government owned "bank" that people paid money into. Essentially topping up their cards, with cash. No ID checks necessary of course, since it's only low value and maximum amounts allowed in an account.

Government gets interest on the accounts, customer gets a debit card they can tap in/out with. ITSO simple I can't understand why these dedicated cards are persisted with.

Government pays for admin staff, cash handling, etc. How many branches is this bank going to have? One problem people already have is how far away their nearest bank branch is - and that's out of a choice of dozens of banks and building societies.

 

[Camden]

Government pays for stations to have staff and/or machines, as it does now. TfL pays money for transactions handling, and so would this. Plus of course there is the matter of interest earned which could be considerable.

You're not talking about a real bank, but simply a place (the station etc) where people can get cards they can tap in/out with and "top them up". In reality, they'd be putting their money into an account which would get debited like any other card, thus simplifying and unifying the technology needed to run the whole system (a system which takes contactless payments).

 

[najaB]

Dedicated cards and loading them up is just daft, given contactless payment technology.

I tap in to the system in Inverness and don't tap out. What is the 'maximum fare' that will be charged?

 

[Deerfold]

Government pays for stations to have staff and/or machines, as it does now. TfL pays money for transactions handling, and so would this. Plus of course there is the matter of interest earned which could be considerable.

The government does not directly pay for stations to have staff/machines. Will this bank use current rail staff or new staff?

There's plenty of stations now considered too dangerous to allow TVMs to take cash. Will these have top-up machines?

TfL are doing everything they can to take cash off the network. They've taken it off buses completely and will save a considerable sum from this - and they're encouraging people to not pay for other tickets with cash, encouraging Oyster seasons and online top-ups.

Interest rates are at an all-time low - they'd be lucky to get 2% annually.

You're not talking about a real bank, but simply a place (the station etc) where people can get cards they can tap in/out with and "top them up". In reality, they'd be putting their money into an account which would get debited like any other card, thus simplifying and unifying the technology needed to run the whole system (a system which takes contactless payments).

It sounds to have most of the costs of a "real" bank.

 

[OwlMan]

There are two major problems with smartcards at present which need solving.
1) If you allow multiple tickets to be stored on a card , and more than one is valid for your journey how does the system know which one to mark as used?

2) Using a smartcard to hold a cash balance -= what is the minimum value you must have to enter a station?
What happens if you tap in at Southampton with £20 on the account and you try to tap out at Inverness?

 

[Camden]

i tap in to the system in inverness and don't tap out. What is the 'maximum fare' that will be charged?

£8.90.

 

[Chris999999]

There are two major problems with smartcards at present which need solving.
1) If you allow multiple tickets to be stored on a card , and more than one is valid for your journey how does the system know which one to mark as used?

2) Using a smartcard to hold a cash balance -= what is the minimum value you must have to enter a station?
What happens if you tap in at Southampton with £20 on the account and you try to tap out at Inverness?

1) - It doesn't matter when you enter the station if more than one ticket is valid. It is just clear that you have one (or more) valid tickets.

- It may become apparent enroute if your ticket is checked, which ticket is valid. It doesn't matter if you have more than one valid ticket

- It may become apparent when you tap out when you leave a station which ticket is valid. At this point a simple rule would be needed, for example select the oldest ticket on your smartcard if there still remain more than one valid tickets (perhaps with the option to change this online).

2) - This is entirely different to using a smartcard to hold a ticket. It is a nationwide pay as you go oyster card. Users would need more than £1000 on their account to tap in. I can't see this being a success.

 

[Camden]

I wasn't envisaging a national scheme, but simply contactless payment technology replacing all the existing smartcard schemes out there.

There are various PTEs and TOCs out there trying to get smartcard systems working, some with more success than others. But none of them come close to offering what Londoners enjoy on a daily basis, which is the ultra convenience of being able to tap in and out whenever you want and get the best fare available.

 

[najaB]

£8.90.

Good value for travel to Southampton!

 

[Clip]

The idea of smartcards is great but with each thread we have about them and how to simplify ticketing it seems all the ideas just add more confusion for the average traveller. Of which most on here are not.

 

[181]

There are two major problems with smartcards at present which need solving.

It seems to me that there's a third, related to Owlman's two: in the absence of a reader, a smartcard is just an uninformative piece of plastic, and the customer has no easy way to check that the correct ticket has been marked as used, or that the correct amount of money has been deducted. This is even more important if it's a contactless card taking money straight out of your main bank account.

 

[Hadders]

It may become apparent when you tap out when you leave a station which ticket is valid. At this point a simple rule would be needed, for example select the oldest ticket on your smartcard if there still remain more than one valid tickets (perhaps with the option to change this online).

Hmmm. Consider a journey from Manchester to London on a Saturday. Let's say I have two tickets on my smartcard:

- The return portion of a London-Manchester Anytime Return with 2 weeks validity remaining.
- The return portion of a London-Manchester Off Peak Return with 3 weeks validity remaining.

Which ticket would be used?

 

[Camden]

The idea of smartcards is great but with each thread we have about them and how to simplify ticketing it seems all the ideas just add more confusion for the average traveller. Of which most on here are not.

Only those ignoring the premise of the original suggestion are adding complications. If Oyster works well in London with contactless technology, then why wouldn't it work in other cities?

The actual suggestion is simple: Dump the pop card, dump the Walrus, dump the Get-me-out-of-here, etc, etc. Set up fare zones and fare structures inside each metropolitan area that wants to have a "smartcard" facility, and provide them with the same technology that drives Oyster contactless. No national fares, no multiple tickets, no complicated anything.

And to dump paper ticketing altogether for city journeys, extend the contract for basic bank accounts to also have accounts to link into issue on demand contactless cards for tourists and the like in the stations.

Instead of years spent trying to get these smartcard schemes working, there is a tried and tested instant debit solution waiting to be tapped into, the key ingredient to which most people already carry in their pockets.

 

[kieron]

Only those ignoring the premise of the original suggestion are adding complications. If Oyster works well in London with contactless technology, then why wouldn't it work in other cities?

Introducing zone-based pricing worked in London because the government was happy to authorise fare cuts in order to achieve it. They are much less generous towards other parts of the country, as shown by the recent frequent fare increases in Greater Manchester (in particular).

Apart from that, Chris999999 wasn't looking for a card which could only be used for journeys wholly within specific little bits of the country.

 

[Clip]

Only those ignoring the premise of the original suggestion are adding complications. If Oyster works well in London with contactless technology, then why wouldn't it work in other cities?

.

Cities yes - rest of the country as the OP was meaning then No.

Loading a ticket onto a smartcard is fine and dandy but as others have posted you could have a combination of tickets stored on there and th[at complicates things.

Technology really has moved on from smartcards now but ive still not really seen a coherent answer as to what to use as not all solutions are a simple fit for everyone.

 

[najaB]

Only those ignoring the premise of the original suggestion are adding complications. If Oyster works well in London with contactless technology, then why wouldn't it work in other cities?

It works in London because there was an established zonal fares system. The same is not true of many other cities, and definitely not nationally.

 

[Llanigraham]

£8.90.

After I have travelled all the way to Aberystwyth??
Get real!!