"Smart" fare dodgers - even smarter guard !

[Flamingo]

In the instances I described a not very hard prod in the arm could result in bleeding. Someone who's recently had a BCG injection will have an ulcer like this under their clothing: http://www.coldbacon.com/mdtruth/pics/cutaneousanthrax-ulcer.jpg and they won't be wearing a T-shirt saying that and they may well be the passenger who has a ticket but has fallen asleep on the train.

Ralphchadkirk was implying that ticket clippers can harmlessly be used to prod.

Bit of am extreme example in that picture, mate. If someone has an ulcer like that after a BCG jab, they are VERY unlucky, and will probably not be asleep, as it will be VERY painful :roll:.

Anyway, I usually don't use the deltoid region to prod the passenger. I use pressure on the nailbed when I am assessing their level of consciousness. (and you still haven't said the relevance of blood transfusions)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

the second time, the passenger did not wake up and was taken off the train and put on a stretcher and given medical assistance.

Thanks - you've provided a very good defence for the conductor - checking the response of the passenger to ensure that they are not in fact unconscious.

 

[pemma]

If they've got an ulcer like that, I'd run for the next carriage and call the Health Protection Agency. That ulcer is caused by anthrax.

Try this one instead: http://web.tygh.gov.tw/chest/TBCENTER-TYGH/img/bcg15.jpg Google images hasn't been that good lately.

Why isn't it right that a conductor should be able to wake someone by prodding them?

Because most passengers aren't fare evaders but when they travel on the train they're seen as guilty until they've shown a valid ticket.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

(and you still haven't said the relevance of blood transfusions)

If someone's had a blood transfusion so recently that the area it was done is still painful then they will probably still be in intensive care!

 

[Flamingo]

Try this one instead: http://web.tygh.gov.tw/chest/TBCENTER-TYGH/img/bcg15.jpg Google images hasn't been that good lately.



Because most passengers aren't fare evaders but when they travel on the train they're seen as guilty until they've shown a valid ticket.

1 look at the scale, that is on a child's arm, they will not be travelling alone, I would guess.

And guess what - until they have shown a valid ticket, they are a potential fare evader.

 

[pemma]

and you still haven't said the relevance of blood transfusions

If you've given blood you've got a hole there that's healing over so prodding in the wrong place resets the whole healing process.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If you've given blood you've got a hole there that's healing over so prodding in the wrong place resets the whole healing process.

So the person hasn't had a blood transfusion, they've been giving blood. There's a bit of a difference there!

AFAIK giving blood is done through a cannula or normal syringe needle, so it will just be a small puncture wound.

 

[pemma]

1 look at the scale, that is on a child's arm, they will not be travelling alone, I would guess.

And guess what - until they have shown a valid ticket, they are a potential fare evader.

While BCG injections are given to most children now, those who weren't given it at birth get given it at a later stage, usually as a teenager.

Also international students get given any injections they've not been given in their home country which are considered advisory in the UK in the first couple of months after coming over, so usually when they are around 19 years old.

 

[Flamingo]

If someone's had a blood transfusion so recently that the area it was done is still painful then they will probably still be in intensive care!

No, but the area of the arm where the IV cannulae would have been would be either the back of the hand, inside of elbow, or wrist - all VERY unlikely to be chosen.

Anyway, the pain would waken them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you've given blood you've got a hole there that's healing over so prodding in the wrong place resets the whole healing process.

Which will be on the inside of the elbow, a very unlikely spot to choose to prod somebody as they would have to be asleep on a train with their arm extended

.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

No, but the area of the arm where the IV cannulae would have been would be either the back of the hand, inside of elbow, or wrist - all VERY unlikely to be chosen.

Anyway, the pain would waken them.

Perhaps I was a bit dramatic, but a transfusion is a major intervention. As you say, the general sites for cannulation are not in areas likely to be chosen for prodding. Could it be done via a CVC (transfusion, not giving blood)? Even so, that is not in an area likely to be chosen for prodding.

 

[Flamingo]

So the person hasn't had a blood transfusion, they've been giving blood. There's a bit of a difference there!

AFAIK giving blood is done through a cannula or normal syringe needle, so it will just be a small puncture wound.

Should be closed up within 10 minutes, unless the Dr was a real butcher (and it would be a Dr, a phlebotomist would never do so bad a job!)

 

[WestCoast]

All this talk of prodding/poking passengers made me think of the time when I saw a female guard in the Netherlands literally shaking a "fake sleeping" passenger. She was rather large and fearless.

But seriously, I have heard that the squads (heavies in leather jackets with an angry dog) that patrolled the old East German U-Bahn scared the fare evaders s**tless.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Should be closed up within 10 minutes, unless the Dr was a real butcher (and it would be a Dr, a phlebotomist would never do so bad a job!)

As I thought. I would imagine some roadside cannulations can be pretty messy though.

 

[Flamingo]

Perhaps I was a bit dramatic, but a transfusion is a major intervention. As you say, the general sites for cannulation are not in areas likely to be chosen for prodding. Could it be done via a CVC (transfusion, not giving blood)? Even so, that is not in an area likely to be chosen for prodding.

Unlikely, in somebody who was "up and about" on a train. Central lines in these people are usually reserved for feeding, and they are very careful about infection risk.

 

[Welshman]

Gosh - I didn't realise I'd be opening such a debate way back in post 34!!!

But as HugePilchard said in post 85, I would hope each TOC would give considered advice to every conductor for their protection, as I imagine their job is difficult enough without any "smart" passengers retaliating in this litigious age with threats of legal action.

 

[Flamingo]

Gosh - I didn't realise I'd be opening such a debate way back in post 34!!!

But as HugePilchard said in post 85, I would hope each TOC would give considered advice to every conductor for their protection, as I imagine their job is difficult enough without any "smart" passengers retaliating in this litigious age with threats of legal action.

You'd think they would, wouldn't you!

In this litigious age, the advice given by the TOC to it's staff can be summarised as "Patrol your train constantly, check all tickets and protect all revenue. However never do anything that will result in a complaint, cause confrontation, delay a train or put yourself at risk under any circumstances".

If you can tell me how to do it, I'll be delighted.

 

[Welshman]

You'd think they would, wouldn't you!

In this litigious age, the advice given by the TOC to it's staff can be summarised as "Patrol your train constantly, check all tickets and protect all revenue. However never do anything that will result in a complaint, cause confrontation, delay a train or put yourself at risk under any circumstances".

If you can tell me how to do it, I'll be delighted.

A classic "heads we win, tails you lose" situation!
That's a lot of good, isn't it? :roll:

 

[codenamecuebal]

In this litigious age, the advice given by the TOC to it's staff can be summarised as "Patrol your train constantly, check all tickets and protect all revenue. However never do anything that will result in a complaint, cause confrontation, delay a train or put yourself at risk under any circumstances".

So you can't call a passenger weird for asking for a reciept?

 

[Flamingo]

So you can't call a passenger weird for asking for a reciept?

No, the customer is always right!

My favourite comback I heard of to someone who was doing the "I pay your wages" line whilst being kicked out of 1st class was "So what, I pay your benefits"

 

[Seacook]

In this litigious age, the advice given by the TOC to it's staff can be summarised as "Patrol your train constantly, check all tickets and protect all revenue. However never do anything that will result in a complaint, cause confrontation, delay a train or put yourself at risk under any circumstances".

If you can tell me how to do it, I'll be delighted.

If you did manage to do all that, it would be extended "and don't go near any kryptonite".

 

[Madge Wildfire]

Some of the most successful dodgers appear to be those who try to just ignore the guard when they ask for "tickets from X". Again if it's a large, busy train the guard may not be able to remember who has been inspected.

It cant be beyond the powers of modern technology to devise a small program to display all the seats on a train (with carriage letters) on a portable lcd touch sensitive screen?

The ticket inspector and/or guard would simply enter details (or maybe they could be retrieved by swiping the tickets through some form of reader) of each passenger's ticket with the seat number, and the unit could then display all of the seats and destinations.

Anyone who boarded at the next station would be instantly recognised as they would be in a seat for which no up to date details would be held, as either the seat would previously show as vacant, or as a ticket that had that particular stop as its destination.

 

[Mike395]

Interesting idea in concept, but I think it would slow down the guard making his way through the train to the extent that some tickets wouldnt get checked at all...which makes the system pointless!

 

[Flamingo]

If you did manage to do all that, it would be extended "and don't go near any kryptonite".

I manage most of it - except for the bits about complaints and confrontation and risk!

 

[island]

It cant be beyond the powers of modern technology to devise a small program to display all the seats on a train (with carriage letters) on a portable lcd touch sensitive screen?

The ticket inspector and/or guard would simply enter details (or maybe they could be retrieved by swiping the tickets through some form of reader) of each passenger's ticket with the seat number, and the unit could then display all of the seats and destinations.

Anyone who boarded at the next station would be instantly recognised as they would be in a seat for which no up to date details would be held, as either the seat would previously show as vacant, or as a ticket that had that particular stop as its destination.

They have a very low-tech version of this in the States. The guard has a stack of dockets of various colours, each corresponding to a block of stops. When your ticket is checked he finds the relevant docket, clips a hole in it corresponding to your destination, and puts it in a slot over your seat. He can then easily see who's been checked and who's going where, and he clears down the dockets as appropriate.

 

[Flamingo]

I'd hate to have to do that on the 18.00 Pad-Bri!

Funnily enough, you get used to remembering what seats are full, and little things, like a coloured scarf, shirt, bag, hairdo. I find I remember it like a pattern, and if someone new arrives, then the pattern has changed.

Things like fast-food bags, coffee cups from station outlets, coats done up / wet are all visual clues, as are the body language and facial expressions. The number of people who give a "start" when you walk past them slowly calling out "Tickets from X" are surprisingly common.

 

[jon0844]

If you ever genuinely go the toilet just before a ticket inspection it's sometimes quite amusing to see the guard's face when you show him/her that you have a valid ticket.

I got on a Heathrow Connect train once, without an extension from BZ6 (well, Hayes & Harlington) to Heathrow, thanks to Hatfield being unable to sell one as they couldn't find it on their system. I did ask the guard if he'd sell it to me onboard before I boarded and he agreed, but said he'd come find me later!

I walked down and sat down, but after leaving Hayes & Harlington, he still hadn't come through to me - and I needed the toilet. So I went, and came out to see he'd passed me.. so I ended up having to go after him instead of the other way around!

 

[trainophile]

I often change seats to the opposite side of the carriage when the train changes direction, to keep the sun out of my eyes and off my phone screen! That would confuse a system of noting which seats were occupied.

 

[Madge Wildfire]

I often change seats to the opposite side of the carriage when the train changes direction, to keep the sun out of my eyes and off my phone screen! That would confuse a system of noting which seats were occupied.

Not really, but you would be likely to have your ticket checked more than once if you did that.

 

[Deerfold]

Not really, but you would be likely to have your ticket checked more than once if you did that.

And if someone sat in the seat trainophile had vacated they wouldn't have theirs checked...

 

[codenamecuebal]

No, the customer is always right!

My favourite comback I heard of to someone who was doing the "I pay your wages" line whilst being kicked out of 1st class was "So what, I pay your benefits"

Thats brilliant.
I actually got called weird on a train from Milngavie to Glasgow Central one night for asking for a reciept.. with my child ticket. He asked my age and luckily enough I had ID proving i'm 15