Smart Motorways, is it time to end them?

[Hadleywood]

I've been reading about the deaths on these roads in the past year or two and have to wonder if the time saved is actually worth the risk when things go wrong. We broke down on the M1 in June after an electrical fault and had to park in lane 1 and get to safety. This meant climbing over the barrier and standing on a fairly steep bank full of stinging nettles. We felt we would be safe if somewhat uncomfortable, but still felt terribly guilty leaving that car where it was. We almost expected a loud bang at any time. Yes i know the technology should tell other drivers to get out of that lane but technology fails and systems go down, after all. Witness the said lane 1 deaths i have read about.
Maybe a better way is to stop the inane population explosion in the UK and thus the traffic growth. Maybe make the inside lane 40 mph until they decide if these lanes really are what we want.
Friends are split on this, pretty much 50-50 for and against Smart Motorways.
Where are you on this?

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Madness. It was obvious before they were introduced that they would lead to more deaths. Hard shoulders should be reinstated.

 

[Ted633]

Obviously, all motorway's when widened should be done properly with a permanent hard shoulder, but that gets very expensive when it comes to bridges, tunnels, cuttings, junctions etc. I think the best solution are the motorway's that have the dynamic hard shoulder that only becomes a running lane when it's busy. This means at night and when it's quiet, there is a safe place to pull over and there is little risk of someone going along at 70mph and suddenly finding a dead car in the middle of the road. This scenario shouldn't happen when there is congestion and speed limits are reduced (hard shoulder now usable), as all cars will be following each other close enough to be able to react to a car breaking down/cars ahead stopping.
Unfortunately, this style of smart motorway aren't built anymore as they are apparently too confusing as to when you're allowed to use the hard shoulder. (I seldom use these motorway's, but it is pretty damn obvious to me!)

 

[thejuggler]

I do think there are too many types with some stretches being permanent and some allowing occasional hard shoulder running as I have seen vehicles using the hard shoulder when it isn't permitted.

The decision to increase the distance between refuge areas on full lane running stretches was also a mistake which should be rectified.

However motorways are still the safest roads in the UK. Most accidents are due to poor driving and observation, not the road type.

There are thousands of miles of dual carriageway which have no hard shoulder and I've never seen a campaign demanding them.

 

[py_megapixel]

Honestly it's time to stop widening motorways at all. It's an incredibly irresponsible move.

 

[Dai Corner]

Honestly it's time to stop widening motorways at all. It's an incredibly irresponsible move.

I guess you don't have to use congested motorways, or live close to one and find your city clogged up with through traffic when it overspills onto local roads?

My local motorway, the M4 in Newport, was built in the 1960s with two lanes. It was 'widened' to three in the 1980s (I think) but physical constraints like cuttings and viaducts in the urban areas meant losing the hard shoulders in some places and lane gains/drops at some junctions. Worst of all are the tunnels, which remain two lane.

It was 'smartened'' a few years ago with variable speed limits. However this has now been replaced with a permanent 50mph limit; not on the grounds of safety or traffic flow but air quality. I don't know what happened to the expensive kit.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

There is just far far too much traffic. I (used to) drive a lot on busy motorways, in London etc. Very glad I no longer have to. Drakeford stopped plans for yet another new road by Newport, very good.

 

[py_megapixel]

I guess you don't have to use congested motorways, or live close to one and find your city clogged up with through traffic when it overspills onto local roads?

I absolutely have. But the fact of the matter is that widening motorways is not a solution to that. It is, no pun intended, kicking the can down the road. Widened roads induce demand - in other words, they encourage more driving, and the enlarged roads just fill up again.

The actual solution is to shift as much of the traffic as possible either onto alternative modes (e.g. rail) or into more space-efficient vehicles (e.g. coaches) so that for those who genuinely need to use a car, the road flows properly.

 

[Dai Corner]

I absolutely have. But the fact of the matter is that widening motorways is not a solution to that. It is, no pun intended, kicking the can down the road. Widened roads induce demand - in other words, they encourage more driving, and the enlarged roads just fill up again.

The actual solution is to shift as much of the traffic as possible either onto alternative modes (e.g. rail) or into more space-efficient vehicles (e.g. coaches) so that for those who genuinely need to use a car, the road flows properly.

Do you think we should close or narrow some roads to reduce traffic? Which ones?

 

[AM9]

Do you think we should close or narrow some roads to reduce traffic? Which ones?

They should certainly narrow some roads and reduce their maximum speed. It's been long known that road traffic follows the path of least resistance, so increase the resistance. Eventually some drivers realise that some journeys are best made by other modes, different times - or even not at all.

 

[py_megapixel]

They should certainly narrow some roads and reduce their maximum speed. It's been long known that road traffic follows the path of least resistance, so increase the resistance. Eventually some drivers realise that some journeys are best made by other modes, different times - or even not at all.

Indeed. And in the case of non-motorways, the space taken away from cars can be given to pedestrians and cyclists or - in the case of city centres - used to create much-needed urban green space - even if it's just a grass verge with some trees on it can make a lot of difference to how pleasant a particular place feels`

 

[Dai Corner]

They should certainly narrow some roads and reduce their maximum speed. It's been long known that road traffic follows the path of least resistance,so increase the resistance. Eventually some drivers realise that some journeys are best made by other modes, different times - or even not at all.

Congestion does that by itself without any action by the authorities. Going back to motorways, widening them reduces the resistance and keeps long-distance traffic off local roads.

I hardly ever use the M4 for local car journeys. In fact I nearly always the bus if it goes where I need to go. We've now got a demand-responsive bus service in Newport. I find that it's usually routed via the M4 , often being sent empty to pick me up and returning with just me in it. That's actually worse for congestion and pollution than me driving the car!

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

There is just far far too much traffic. I (used to) drive a lot on busy motorways, in London etc. Very glad I no longer have to. ChDrakeford stopped plans for yet another new road by Newport, very good.

I absolutely have. But the fact of the matter is that widening motorways is not a solution to that. It is, no pun intended, kicking the can down the road. Widened roads induce demand - in other words, they encourage more driving, and the enlarged roads just fill up again.

The actual solution is to shift as much of the traffic as possible either onto alternative modes (e.g. rail) or into more space-efficient vehicles (e.g. coaches) so that for those who genuinely need to use a car, the road flows properly.

I think a good solution is to reduce traffic. Lots of people drive every day from Wales to Bristol for work. Lots of people travel from Bristol to Wales to work. Why? Because driving many thousands of miles a year is too cheap and attractive. I bet lots of people could swap jobs, work on their own side of the water and travel much less.

 

[Dai Corner]

There is just far far too much traffic. I (used to) drive a lot on busy motorways, in London etc. Very glad I no longer have to. ChDrakeford stopped plans for yet another new road by Newport, very good.

I think a good solution is to reduce traffic. Lots of people drive every day from Wales to Bristol for work. Lots of people travel from Bristol to Wales to work. Why? Because driving many thousands of miles a year is too cheap and attractive. I bet lots of people could swap jobs, work on their own side of the water and travel much less.

I did just that after commuting from Newport to Bristol for two years. I drove about half the time, depending on whether my then partner needed the car. The train journey was not pleasant due to overcrowding and there were occasions I couldn't physically board at Newport.

I was glad to be made redundant and find a job locally, albeit at a much lower salary.

 

[Bald Rick]

To answer the original question - definitely not.

Smart motorways with all lane running (ALR) or a dynamic hard shoulder are actually safer than a conventional non-smart motorway with hard shoulder. However much of this is because the Smart ‘kit’ - traffic sensors, radar, variable speed limits, and of course the speed cameras encouraging more sensible driving - more than offset the deterioration in safety caused by not having a hard shoulder. There’s no doubt that a ‘smart’ motorway on a motorway with hard shoulder would be the safest, as seen on much of the M25 and a few other locations.

One thing I find astonishing is how many cars you see stopped on the motorway hard shoulder, and how few you see in lane 1 of an ALR (or indeed any dual carriageway road without hard shoulder). I can’t believe that cars choose to breakdown conveniently where there is a hard shoulder; the only conclusion I can reach is that a significant proportion of vehicles stopped on the hard shoulder actually shouldn’t be there. Making calls, going to the loo, sorting out the kids, etc etc.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Had to stop on the hard shoulder once. Van door was rattling, I secured it. A scary place, I should not stop there without good reason.

 

[bluenoxid]

I support smart roads and would like to see the technology applied to more roads, particularly where they have a history of inattentive deaths where vehicles round a corner and hit broken down vehicles. I personally would introduce the flexibility to close lanes dynamically for bus lanes when the traffic gets busy.

 

[Snow1964]

I am not keen on smart motorways, have on 2-3 occasions come across broken down or crashed vehicles and the signs are all blank.

And have also seen signs warning of stranded vehicle on 2 occasions, but there wasn’t one.

My view is the sensor system misses so much its dangerous, and the Operators using the signs to cry wolf have resulted in people not trusting them.

 

[Ediswan]

Had to stop on the hard shoulder once. Van door was rattling, I secured it. A scary place, I should not stop there without good reason.

Once got a tyre pressure warning when queuing on the M25 for the QEII bridge. Pulled over and got out to inspect. Then noticed that the queue was repeatedly clearing and re-forming alongside us. Decided to limp to Thurrock Services rather than stay there to change the wheel.

 

[Bald Rick]

Had to stop on the hard shoulder once. Van door was rattling, I secured it. A scary place, I should not stop there without good reason.

Case in point - you wouldn’t have stopped in Lane 1 of an All lane running motorway to do that.

Hard Shoulders are for emergency use.

 

[The Planner]

Something that nags me with this, what are peoples perceived differences to driving on a 2 or 3 lane 70mph dual carriageway with no hard shoulders vs a ALR motorway? Your average dual carriageway isn't festooned with laybys and has no ability to warn you of a lane closure.

 

[AM9]

Something that nags me with this, what are peoples perceived differences to driving on a 2 or 3 lane 70mph dual carriageway with no hard shoulders vs a ALR motorway? Your average dual carriageway isn't festooned with laybys and has no ability to warn you of a lane closure.

I normally drive with caution on both, but there is an expectation of more safety on a motorway because of the higher classification in road hierachy terms so some motorists may get caught out.

 

[Dai Corner]

I normally drive with caution on both, but there is an expectation of more safety on a motorway because of the higher classification in road hierachy terms so some motorists may get caught out.

Maybe motorways which have been downgraded with smartness, ALR etc should be renamed to A roads?

 

[The Planner]

Maybe motorways which have been downgraded with smartness, ALR etc should be renamed to A roads?

Which then no longer makes them special roads (ignoring the way the A55 is dealt with) and you can have tractors and mopeds pootling along them.

 

[AM9]

Which then no longer makes them special roads (ignoring the way the A55 is dealt with) and you can have tractors and mopeds pootling along them.

That would of course remove the element of surprise to inattentive drivers.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Case in point - you wouldn’t have stopped in Lane 1 of an All lane running motorway to do that.

Hard Shoulders are for emergency use.

I might have been too scared to stop. The door might have flown open scattering freight on the road with serious consequences.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Case in point - you wouldn’t have stopped in Lane 1 of an All lane running motorway to do that.

Hard Shoulders are for emergency use.

Problem there is that what constitutes an "emergency" is subject to a degree interpretation. For example an unsecured side door on a fully laden Transit type van could lead to a spilled load, which could be very dangerous on a busy motorway. Some people might reasonably consider that making the load secure is the best course of action.

 

[Puppetfinger]

ALR is what gets my goat, very dangerous in my opinion.

I have no issue with the smart technology to manage the running lanes, however this is regularly let down by the operators. Far too often have I seen restrictions and messages left up for too long, or forgotten about. Couple this with the proliferation of apps that work with Car Share / Auto showing real time traffic data, it then leads to some people ignoring the traffic signs and some obeying, this again I feel often more dangerous than having the signs at all.

 

[mmh]

One thing I find astonishing is how many cars you see stopped on the motorway hard shoulder, and how few you see in lane 1 of an ALR (or indeed any dual carriageway road without hard shoulder). I can’t believe that cars choose to breakdown conveniently where there is a hard shoulder; the only conclusion I can reach is that a significant proportion of vehicles stopped on the hard shoulder actually shouldn’t be there. Making calls, going to the loo, sorting out the kids, etc etc.

I don't find it astonishing at all. Cars very rarely break down instantly. More often something goes wrong, the driver well aware of it, and able to limp to safety. You have to get to the hard shoulder from a running lane even if there's a shoulder on the stretch you're on, after all.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't find it astonishing at all. Cars very rarely break down instantly. More often something goes wrong, the driver well aware of it, and able to limp to safety. You have to get to the hard shoulder from a running lane even if there's a shoulder on the stretch you're on, after all.

Though if you're using the motorway correctly, in the vast majority of cases you should be in the left hand lane unless you're overtaking... and if your vehicle has developed a fault you probably shouldn't be overtaking anyway.