• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Smarter ticket barriers : good news or bad?

Status
Not open for further replies.

JB_B

Established Member
Joined
27 Dec 2013
Messages
1,411
I've started this thread in response to the posts in this thread ...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ow-ticketing-rules.174893/page-2#post-3803853

... as they raise wider issues.


At present, as we all know, gate-line barriers are a bit of a lottery : invalid tickets are sometimes accepted and valid tickets often rejected. The technological limitations (and in some cases technical errors or management failings) that lie behind this are well documented elsewhere.

As it is, a gate-line fail provides for a potentially useful top-level triage but is far from definitive and staff are generally well aware of this.

Having to refer to staff is a pain - in that sense, a more accurate system would be welcome.

However, one possible downside of a barrier achieving say 98% accuracy is that gate line staff will much more likely to treat a gate-line rejection as definitive and not investigate further.

The second problem is that we don't know how valid locations for a given ticket will be determined.

The public is provided with the routeing guide; unfortunately, that is riddled with ambiguities and inconsistencies.

On-line booking engines use a set of electronic data and separate routeing guide rules that in some cases differ materially from any reasonable interpretation of the public-facing routeing guide and which are themselves open to various interpretations (see the different behaviours of different booking engines in edge cases).

The rail industry allows the public access to the routeing data specification but chooses to keep the routeing guide data itself (and the internal rules for interpreting it) a commercial secret so the public have no way of telling whether a barrier location has been correctly denied to them or not.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,671
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
The problem does not lie with the technology, but with the ticketing rules themselves. We in this country have the most ridiculously complex ticketing system that it needs regular travellers to form workshops to give some people even half a chance of understanding a fraction of the rules, and even then there are debates as to the interpretation.

No, before we even get into the debate as to how best use technology to keep things simple and smooth for the average passenger we need to resolve the absolute mess of the ticketing system.
 

themeone

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
237
I've often wondered who is responsible for programming the ticket barriers as I've encountered inconsistency even at adjacent stations on the same line.

For example, a few years ago I had a season ticket East Croydon to West Hampstead. It was always rejected by the barriers at City Thameslink, but accepted at adjacent Blackfriars and Farringdon. Though I imagine different programme would be needed for Farringdon anyway, since it does not count as London Terminals, so we are back to the complexity of the ticketing rules!
 

Wallsendmag

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2014
Messages
5,136
Location
Wallsend or somewhere in GB
I've often wondered who is responsible for programming the ticket barriers as I've encountered inconsistency even at adjacent stations on the same line.

For example, a few years ago I had a season ticket East Croydon to West Hampstead. It was always rejected by the barriers at City Thameslink, but accepted at adjacent Blackfriars and Farringdon. Though I imagine different programme would be needed for Farringdon anyway, since it does not count as London Terminals, so we are back to the complexity of the ticketing rules!
Well I know who it is at LNER ;) At least as far as the S&B gates
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,984
The problem does not lie with the technology, but with the ticketing rules themselves. We in this country have the most ridiculously complex ticketing system that it needs regular travellers to form workshops to give some people even half a chance of understanding a fraction of the rules, and even then there are debates as to the interpretation.

No, before we even get into the debate as to how best use technology to keep things simple and smooth for the average passenger we need to resolve the absolute mess of the ticketing system.

I agree that our ticketing system is complex but if it is simplified fares will increase and flexibility will reduce.

How would you square the circle?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,438
Location
Yorkshire
I've often wondered who is responsible for programming the ticket barriers as I've encountered inconsistency even at adjacent stations on the same line.

For example, a few years ago I had a season ticket East Croydon to West Hampstead. It was always rejected by the barriers at City Thameslink, but accepted at adjacent Blackfriars and Farringdon. Though I imagine different programme would be needed for Farringdon anyway, since it does not count as London Terminals, so we are back to the complexity of the ticketing rules!
OK; feel free to create a thread with your proposals on how to make it simpler.

So far everyone who has said this has been unable to actually come up with a simpler system.
As it is, a gate-line fail provides for a potentially useful top-level triage but is far from definitive and staff are generally well aware of this.
Some staff think it is definitive; I recall being in an argument at King's Cross with some incredibly unknowledgeable staff who claimed that the ticket gates were definitive and refused to look up the actual restrictions of the ticket held, because they didn't need to.

The Dunning Kruger effect is seen in evidence at gatelines in some places; basically the staff over estimate their abilities (and the abilities of their ticket gates) to determine if a ticket is valid or not, and cannot see how they could be wrong.
Having to refer to staff is a pain - in that sense, a more accurate system would be welcome.

However, one possible downside of a barrier achieving say 98% accuracy is that gate line staff will much more likely to treat a gate-line rejection as definitive and not investigate further.
Some staff do this at present, but at many locations the staff are much more relaxed. Yes, I think there is a concern that the Dunning Kruger effect could occur more frequently if more staff over estimate the abilities of their gateline and themselves.
The second problem is that we don't know how valid locations for a given ticket will be determined.

The public is provided with the routeing guide; unfortunately, that is riddled with ambiguities and inconsistencies.

On-line booking engines use a set of electronic data and separate routeing guide rules that in some cases differ materially from any reasonable interpretation of the public-facing routeing guide and which are themselves open to various interpretations (see the different behaviours of different booking engines in edge cases).

The rail industry allows the public access to the routeing data specification but chooses to keep the routeing guide data itself (and the internal rules for interpreting it) a commercial secret so the public have no way of telling whether a barrier location has been correctly denied to them or not.
There are two big issues with determining validity; one is whether it is a permitted route and the other is whether there are any time restrictions that bar the use of the ticket at that time. The latter is probably even more problematic, because the restriction code itself isn't held on the magnetic stripe.
 
Last edited:

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
I agree that our ticketing system is complex but if it is simplified fares will increase and flexibility will reduce.

How would you square the circle?
I think the issue is more with the complexity of the rules that the passenger is supposed to know.

It is one thing having too complex a fare structure to begin with, and in certain respects the way in which privatisation has been done hasn't helped here - for example, having loads of different routes for a particular journey, or having Advances for a 10 minute journey!

But it would all be much less objectionable if the structure surrounding the fares is less obtuse. For example, why can you excess a route restricted ticket to a different route, but not a TOC restricted ticket? That is a clear case of needless industry meddling and silly rules.

The same thing applies with respect to people being prosecuted (and being afraid of being prosecuted) for what is really a civil matter between the train company and the passenger, such as having the wrong kind of ticket, or forgetting a Railcard.

The rail industry should take a look at the way other countries manage their fare systems for some inspiration. The token gestures of the industry in its current half-baked attempt at "simplification" (removing the term any permitted as much as possible, thereby making things more restrictive) are simply farcical.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,671
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I agree that our ticketing system is complex but if it is simplified fares will increase and flexibility will reduce.

How would you square the circle?

Its a good question, and in all honesty its not something I could answer straight away. So I'll give it some consideration and post my thoughts later. However whilst it is very true that simplification would reduce flexibility, quite honestly most passengers would welcome this, in my own opinion of course. If I am to be honest, I feel that the complexity suits both the TOCs and the more savvy passengers which is not fair to the rest.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
The Dunning Kruger effect is seen in evidence at gatelines in some places; basically the staff over estimate their abilities (and the abilities of their ticket gates) to determine if a ticket is valid or not, and cannot see how they could be wrong.

Yes, I think there is a concern that the Dunning Kruger effect could occur more frequently if more staff over estimate the abilities of their gateline and themselves.

It seems to me that it's not really a question of the need for smarter ticket barriers, it's more a question of the need for smarter gateline staff!
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,438
Location
Yorkshire
It seems to me that it's not really a question of the need for smarter ticket barriers, it's more a question of the need for smarter gateline staff!
True. Both would be good! But the priority should be on having staff who are given not just better training but also told that if they are in doubt about a ticket's validity, to accept it, make a note of the details so they can enquire and learn from it.

In practice, I tend to see one extreme whereby anything is accepted or the other extreme whereby valid ticket holders are told their tickets aren't valid, and very little in the way of staff keen to learn. I have no issues with staff accepting anything; if the company isn't prepared to train them on tickets and they are just in the job as a stepping stone to something else, then fair enough! But I strongly object to the other extreme (the worst places for that are probably Paddington and Euston).
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
The other thing to remember as well is what the barriers have been setup to do by the staff as a example, Station A could be setup to reject specific tickets such as child tickets which despite being valid at that station have been instructed by the staff to reject it especially if they're doing manual checks of specific tickets.

So with that said, any barrier is only going to be as good as the staff using it.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,984
Its a good question, and in all honesty its not something I could answer straight away. So I'll give it some consideration and post my thoughts later. However whilst it is very true that simplification would reduce flexibility, quite honestly most passengers would welcome this, in my own opinion of course. If I am to be honest, I feel that the complexity suits both the TOCs and the more savvy passengers which is not fair to the rest.

The simplest method would be Anytime only tickets, or booked train only. Consider my local service, Stevenage to Kings Cross. We have a relatively simple fares structure:

Anytime Day Single
Anytime Day Return
Off Peak Day Single
Off Peak Day Return
Off Peak Return
Super Off Peak Day Single (weekends only)
Super Off Peak Day Return (weekends only)

That’s 7 different fares before you add in Travelcards (another 3 fares) or 1st class fares. Many would say this is complicated and needs simplifying.

We could simplify the fares and remove the off peak and super off peak fares - a huge increase in fares.

We could average out the fares which I suspect would end up being nearer to the Anytime fare rather than the Off Peak, still a large increase for leisure travellers so untenable. Also, over crowding would get worse at peak times with no pricing method of controlling passenger numbers available.

In effect there’s so solution. The ‘complicated’ fares exist for a reason and while it would be great to simplify in theory, in practice it would create as many problems as it solved.
 

themeone

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
237
OK; feel free to create a thread with your proposals on how to make it simpler.

So far everyone who has said this has been unable to actually come up with a simpler system.

I pretty much agree with you, which is why I didn't already create a thread with my proposals.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,984
Personally I think we should take the hit. If it was strictly revenue neutral no TOC would be profiteering from it.

What would the price of London to Manchester fares be at Off peak times.

The current fares are (off the top of my head):

Anytime £338 Return
Off Peak £85 Return
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
What would the price of London to Manchester fares be at Off peak times.

London to Manchester is not complex. Anytime, Off Peak and Advances with no TOC specific fares I recall.

It's stupidity like that at Milton Keynes Central that needs to go. Binning all TOC specific walk up fares would be a start.
 
Last edited:

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,984
London to Manchester is not complex. Anytime, Off Peak and Advances with no TOC specific fares I recall.

It's stupidity like that at Milton Keynes Central that needs to go.

But where do you draw the line? If you don’t have cheaper LM only fares then wveryone will pile on the Virgin Trains. I do agree that VT only fares could go from Milton Keynes.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
A massive amount of complexity can be removed by only having singles. In the era of smartcard and mobile tickets, there is little reason to retain returns.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
But where do you draw the line? If you don’t have cheaper LM only fares then wveryone will pile on the Virgin Trains. I do agree that VT only fares could go from Milton Keynes.

If it presented a problem, make more of them pick up/set down only. But off peak it mostly won't, demonstrated by the present cheaper VT Only fares which wouldn't exist if it was.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,984
A massive amount of complexity can be removed by only having singles. In the era of smartcard and mobile tickets, there is little reason to retain returns.

Agreed. As long as a Single is half the price of the current return.
 

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,585
How about ticket barriers that don’t swallow my ticket a few times then spit it back out and render it useless from then on in any ticket barriers? (I have no idea what causes them to do that!)

I’ve purchased an annual piece of orange cardboard this year too rather than monthly but I know I’ll be at the ticket office just as often trying to get a replacement due to the above!
 

A Challenge

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2016
Messages
2,823
I was on London in a paper travelcard yesterday and it would be good if all gates at a gateline would accept tickets (let you put them in at all) not just oyster!
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
A massive amount of complexity can be removed by only having singles. In the era of smartcard and mobile tickets, there is little reason to retain returns.

Which is daft and I can give a example why it's silly!

Stagecoach in Cambridgeshire used to offer Singles, Returns, Day Riders, Weekly and Seasons now for reasons beyond me, they decided to do away with returns so if you only want a return trip say to the Doctors then you either pay for two singles or you buy a day rider neither are ideal as the former is more expensive and the latter is fine if you're using it all day but for one return trip is rather excessive.

This by the way has put up fares constantly due to the inflexibility that they have taken and the same will happen on the railways if they decide to just have singles.

If they were to look at making the fare system easier to understand then you just need three ticket types which is Any Permitted, Off Peak and Advance - As to the actual restrictions such as TOC only tickets that can be worked out later.

Do we really need Super Off Peak tickets? Can we just remove them Monday to Friday and if we really must have them at weekends, call them Weekend Savers.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
I disagree as it's reducing the flexibility that returns currently offer so I hope that they don't consider this at all!
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
7,865
Location
Crayford
Personally I think we should take the hit. If it was strictly revenue neutral no TOC would be profiteering from it.
If we, the fare paying customers, are going to take a hit then you're going to have to factor in loss of revenue from journeys now undertaken by car as well.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
as the former is more expensive

But we're assuming that it isn't more expensive. Because singles are often virtually the same price as a return, triangular trips like A-B-C-A are prohibitively expensive as you need three singles, or you need to get creative with excesses, which is a complete faff. People are forced into wasting time making the journey A-B-C-B-A so they can do the trip with two returns. Or more likely, use the car.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top