Smoking byelaws

[soil]

Just read this:

END OF THE LINE FOR SMOKING ON THE RAILWAYS

Information for journalists, press, bloggers and the media about Network Rail. Contact the press office to receive news, updates, press releases, videos, pictures, and factsheets, and to arrange interviews, filming and photography

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

which was published in 2007 in relation to the 'indoor smoking ban'.

It says

While the legislation affects covered or partially-covered premises, the railways are using existing railway bye-laws to extend the smoke-free environment to all uncovered platforms and footbridges for reasons of practicality and simplicity.

The byelaws are from 2005

3. Smoking​

No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.

This, by implication, permits smoking where there is no such notice.

It is not really clear what is meant by "using existing railway bye-laws", but this could mean "stick up notices everywhere" or "change the bye-laws to effect such a ban".

It seems that the latter would be more logical - but it hasn't happened.

Any thoughts?

 

[D6975]

If you had done a search on 'smoking' you would have saved youself the bother of typing your post.

 

[soil]

If you had done a search on 'smoking' you would have saved youself the bother of typing your post.

I did.

The question is specifically about the intent of the 2007 statement vis a vis the byelaws. Perhaps you can point to where this has been answered previously

 

[D6975]

I did.

The question is specifically about the intent of the 2007 statement vis a vis the byelaws. Perhaps you can point to where this has been answered previously

My point is that you should have added to the existing thread instead of starting a new one.

 

[soil]

My point is that you should have added to the existing thread instead of starting a new one.

I don't think that is possible, the thread I saw (from August 2023) being locked & closed.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't think that is possible, the thread I saw (from August 2023) being locked & closed.

You can ask mods to unlock a thread by clicking 'report' on the final post and adding an explanation in the pop-up box that appears.

 

[Mojo]

The legislation surrounding the smoking ban, which only encompasses enclosed or partially enclosed locations (ie. not most station platforms which is the purpose of the NR / Atoc press release) introduced a requirement for smoke-free places to display no-smoking signage which meets certain requirements.

As the Tocs would have been required in any case to erect suitable notices for waiting shelters and other locations I suppose it would have been a reasonable expectation that these notices become extended to open-air parts of stations.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I'm not even sure I understand what is being asked here. Aren't there "No Smoking" signs plastered all over the railway anyway, even at completely open air stations?

Indoor - No Smoking, covered (and generally understood/expected by the public) by the national, indoor smoking ban.

Outdoor - No Smoking, covered by bye-laws, lots of signs everywhere to make it clear to the public who would not otherwise associate an outdoor station platform with a smoking ban?

 

[soil]

I'm not even sure I understand what is being asked here. Aren't there "No Smoking" signs plastered all over the railway anyway, even at completely open air stations?


Outdoor - No Smoking, covered by bye-laws, lots of signs everywhere to make it clear to the public who would not otherwise associate an outdoor station platform with a smoking ban?

I mean it seems that it would be reasonable to have modified the byelaws to ban smoking outright. Presumably there are places without sufficient signage.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I mean it seems that it would be reasonable to have modified the byelaws to ban smoking outright. Presumably there are places without sufficient signage.

How many people have encyclopedic knowledge of railway bye-laws? You could change the bye-laws to ban smoking outright, but without signage to advertise the fact, people would not be aware. Thus, realistically, you'd have to display signage anyway, so you'd just be wasting time changing the bye-laws, when the bye-laws allow you to prohibit smoking by displaying signage anyway. Presumably any locations with insufficient signage aren't going to be plagued by masses of people suddenly sparking up.

 

[soil]

How many people have encyclopedic knowledge of railway bye-laws? You could change the bye-laws to ban smoking outright, but without signage to advertise the fact, people would not be aware. Thus, realistically, you'd have to display signage anyway, so you'd just be wasting time changing the bye-laws, when the bye-laws allow you to prohibit smoking by displaying signage anyway. Presumably any locations with insufficient signage aren't going to be plagued by masses of people suddenly sparking up.

The point being that there seems to have been a generalized intent to "ban smoking on the railways", which could be achieved by a change in the byelaws, whereas no such change has been effected, and as such there is not really a ban, especially as I believe it's not in the NRCoT, and is only haphazardly communicated by TOCs.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The point being that there seems to have been a generalized intent to "ban smoking on the railways", which could be achieved by a change in the byelaws, whereas no such change has been effected, and as such there is not really a ban, especially as I believe it's not in the NRCoT, and is only haphazardly communicated by TOCs.

The national indoor ban requires signage to be displayed, despite the fact that such a ban is common knowledge. For any bye-law enforced ban to be effective on the railway, it would require signage, otherwise nobody would know about it, or would just assume it only applied to indoor locations.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Until comparatively recently, (December 2019) and well after the smoking ban, Merseyrail still allowed smoking on their stations and platforms, except underground or in any shelters/enclosed areas - and at those locations a notice appeared. Staff were originally also instructed to prosecute and remove passengers caught smoking at the underground stations, and it was (is?) quite strict - but just a few stations along, you could have smoked away merrily.

There used to be a situation at Fishguard Harbour where the station was actually owned by Stena who also allowed smoking, but unsure what the current arrangement there is.

 

[AverageJoe]

Ban it everywhere I say.

Seems to be complete acceptable to come and sit next to me on a bench and light a cigarette but then as soon as I drop a protein fart all hell breaks loose

 

[Deafdoggie]

The national indoor ban requires signage to be displayed

It did, but no longer does.

 

[mrcheek]

I think a lot of people fall foul of this without meaning to.
Many times I have seen people walking to the (uncovered) end of the platform in order to have a quick smoke. Its very rare that signage extends all the way along the platform.technically these people are breaking the law. But you wouldnt likely be able to get a prosecution out of it!

 

[Butts]

Ban it everywhere I say.

Seems to be complete acceptable to come and sit next to me on a bench and light a cigarette but then as soon as I drop a protein fart all hell breaks loose

imagine if the lighter was in close proximity to your flatulence - have you ever seen anyone light a fart ?

Seriously though smoking was not banned on open platforms in Scotland when 1st held the reigns. In Germany they have little smoke stations on open platforms which seems a sensible compromise.

 

[Ediswan]

It did, but no longer does.

That is the first time I have heard of this, so source please.

I did find a reference to simplfying the no-smoking signage requirements, not to the requirement being removed.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

I think vaping should also be banned. If it is then it should be more signposted like smoking - I can’t see how sitting on a train or at a station vaping is that different to smoking. They’re both equally unpleasant for other passengers, especially asthmatics and people with sensitive smell like me

 

[Bertie the bus]

The point being that there seems to have been a generalized intent to "ban smoking on the railways", which could be achieved by a change in the byelaws, whereas no such change has been effected, and as such there is not really a ban, especially as I believe it's not in the NRCoT, and is only haphazardly communicated by TOCs.

No such change to the byelaws took place because no such change was required. It is puzzling how you can't fathom that using existing byelaws means using existing byelaws, which is what the railway has done, and not amend or introduce new byelaws.

 

[1D54]

I think vaping should also be banned. If it is then it should be more signposted like smoking - I can’t see how sitting on a train or at a station vaping is that different to smoking. They’re both equally unpleasant for other passengers, especially asthmatics and people with sensitive smell like me

It is, there are automated announcements all the time over the whole network on trains, stations etc saying so.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

It is, there are automated announcements all the time over the whole network on trains, stations etc saying

No one pays attention to them then

 

[Davester50]

In Germany they have little smoke stations on open platforms which seems a sensible compromise.

Sadly, not just open platforms. Have to wade through the cancerous fug at the buffers at Munich for one.

 

[1D54]

Sadly, not just open platforms. Have to wade through the cancerous fug at the buffers at Munich for one.

Did you never spend time awaiting a train at New Street 30 years ago? I'd take someone having a fag any day over that. It was absolutely disgusting.

 

[Butts]

Did you never spend time awaiting a train at New Street 30 years ago? I'd take someone having a fag any day over that. It was absolutely disgusting.

Ironically smoking was banned there long before most places

 

[Davester50]

Did you never spend time awaiting a train at New Street 30 years ago? I'd take someone having a fag any day over that. It was absolutely disgusting.

Not sure what 30 years ago has with present day.

 

[soil]

No such change to the byelaws took place because no such change was required. It is puzzling how you can't fathom that using existing byelaws means using existing byelaws, which is what the railway has done, and not amend or introduce new byelaws.

there is no power under the byelaws to 'extend [the smoking ban] to all uncovered platforms & footbridges'. there is a power to ban smoking anywhere 'near' a no smoking sign, if the plan was 100,000 no smoking signs, it would make sense to have just said that.

 

[Lewisham2221]

there is no power under the byelaws to 'extend [the smoking ban] to all uncovered platforms & footbridges'. there is a power to ban smoking anywhere 'near' a no smoking sign, if the plan was 100,000 no smoking signs, it would make sense to have just said that.

Massive poster, saying "Smoking and vaping is not permitted anywhere on this station". Seen it at loads of stations. It may not be perfect, but is far more effective at preventing people from smoking and vaping than changing the bye-laws but not having any signage to inform people would be.

 

[TrainHacker]

The ban on vaping at open platforms is not universally policed especially where there is no staff on the platform or part-time ticket office staff. The lack of posters/signage across the network does not help either!

 

[1D54]

Probably controversial but i often disappear to the end of a platform for a couple of drags off my small vape unit. Yes I'm well aware it is wrong but I'm harming nobody and make sure it is free of travellers and staff. Saturday's often see groups off lads standing knocking back booze as if it is going out of fashion on their way to various football venues totally oblivious to all around them shouting and swearing but that is for another thread.