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SNCB orders TRAXX multisystem locos

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MarcVD

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This will be the new HLE 17 series. 1500V & 3000V =, 15 kV ~ 16,7Hz, 25 kV ~ 50 Hz. Ca. 6000 kW, 200 km/h. Fitted with ETCS 2 plus legacy signaling systems for Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, and Germany. 24 copies plus options for 26 more. Will be TRAXX P200 MS3. Question : does that loco model already exist, or did SNCB, again, purchase rolling stock that exists only on paper ? Some pretend that the latest Regiojet locos are fit for 200 km/h but on the attached picture I see they are marked 160. Anyone knows?

bombardier_traxxms3_regiojet33martinpriebs_prag20211228onmk.jpg
 
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43096

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This will be the new HLE 17 series. 1500V & 3000V =, 15 kV ~ 16,7Hz, 25 kV ~ 50 Hz. Ca. 6000 kW, 200 km/h. Fitted with ETCS 2 plus legacy signaling systems for Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, and Germany. 24 copies plus options for 26 more. Will be TRAXX P200 MS3. Question : does that loco model already exist, or did SNCB, again, purchase rolling stock that exists only on paper ? Some pretend that the latest Regiojet locos are fit for 200 km/h but on the attached picture I see they are marked 160. Anyone knows?
It was certainly announced at the time RegioJet ordered their MS3 fleet that they would be getting 200km/h capable locos. But all the locos delivered so far are 160km/h. As far as I know there's never been a 200km/h TRAXX built, the choice if you wanted that top speed was Siemens or (if you were totally mad) Skoda.

Interesting to note that the new locos for Belgium are to get ETCS equipment from Alstom in Charleroi. Obviously a good move by Alstom for the local content, but probably smart from an operational perspective as the ex-Bombardier ETCS kit fitted to previous TRAXX3 builds has had on-going issues.
 

MarcVD

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Are these intended to replace the Class 21s or 27s?
Class 21 is replaced by M7 Bmx. Part of class 27 probably too, as there are 90 M7 Bmx ordered. So we can expect that those 24 new HLE 17 will replace, at least partially, the remaining ones. As far as I understood, the new locos will be used on IC trains Oostende - Eupen that will once again go into Germany, probably as far as Koln. So they will displace some HLE 18 that will themselves displace some HLE 27. It is also rumored that SNCB want to propose its own service to Amsterdam in competition with the NS one. That would explain the presence of Dutch signaling system. I do not know why they also mentioned Luxembourg, but after all, for that country, you need only ETCS so it comes for free... The new HLE 27 will also allow DB Netz to eliminate the commutable tracks in Aachen.
 

StephenHunter

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Cologne West is the point at which the Belgian portion of the Vienna Nightjet joins up with the Dutch portions unless there is engineering work - in my case the join-up was at Troisdorf. The 18s only go as far as Aachen, with a DB 101 taking over from there. The 101s are getting a bit long in the tooth though.
 

the sniper

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Class 21 is replaced by M7 Bmx. Part of class 27 probably too, as there are 90 M7 Bmx ordered. So we can expect that those 24 new HLE 17 will replace, at least partially, the remaining ones. As far as I understood, the new locos will be used on IC trains Oostende - Eupen that will once again go into Germany, probably as far as Koln. So they will displace some HLE 18 that will themselves displace some HLE 27. It is also rumored that SNCB want to propose its own service to Amsterdam in competition with the NS one. That would explain the presence of Dutch signaling system. I do not know why they also mentioned Luxembourg, but after all, for that country, you need only ETCS so it comes for free... The new HLE 27 will also allow DB Netz to eliminate the commutable tracks in Aachen.

Ah yes, forgot about those. Thanks for the info.
 

43096

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Class 21 is replaced by M7 Bmx. Part of class 27 probably too, as there are 90 M7 Bmx ordered. So we can expect that those 24 new HLE 17 will replace, at least partially, the remaining ones. As far as I understood, the new locos will be used on IC trains Oostende - Eupen that will once again go into Germany, probably as far as Koln. So they will displace some HLE 18 that will themselves displace some HLE 27. It is also rumored that SNCB want to propose its own service to Amsterdam in competition with the NS one. That would explain the presence of Dutch signaling system. I do not know why they also mentioned Luxembourg, but after all, for that country, you need only ETCS so it comes for free... The new HLE 27 will also allow DB Netz to eliminate the commutable tracks in Aachen.
Could HLE17s also be to replace the remaining 15 HLE13s in passenger service, which have been concentrated on services towards Luxembourg for some time?
 

MarcVD

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Could HLE17s also be to replace the remaining 15 HLE13s in passenger service, which have been concentrated on services towards Luxembourg for some time?
Possibly, if enough of them are ordered. An hourly train (to integrate in the German Takt) From Oostende to Koln, plus the occasional long distance train, are going to consume the best part of those new locos alone. And the HLE 18 is authorized to Luxembourg now, so there's no need for a new HLE 17 for that.

Alstom press release

Deliveries not due until 2026.
If Alstom/Bombardier manages to get them ready and qualified in that time. If, as it seems, they still have to develop that 200 km/h loco, 4 years will be quite tight. And, by the way, where can you test a loco at such speeds ?
 
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StephenHunter

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Possibly, if enough of them are ordered. An hourly train (to integrate in the German Takt) From Oostende to Koln, plus the occasional long distance train, are going to consume the best part of those new locos alone. And the HLE 18 is authorized to Luxembourg now, so there's no need for a new HLE 17 for that.


If Alstom/Bombardier manages to get them ready and qualified in that time. If, as it seems, they still have to develop that 200 km/h loco, 4 years will be quite tight. And, by the way, where can you test a loco at such speeds ?
Velim, Czechia?
 

DanielB

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It is also rumored that SNCB want to propose its own service to Amsterdam in competition with the NS one. That would explain the presence of Dutch signaling system.
Why would they want to compete with the service they operate together with NS?
On Dutch forums I read an explanation making more sense: the cross border services in Maastricht and Roosendaal, possibly using other services (for example extending an IC from Essen).
The MS75 and MS80, which are the only remaining stock capable of running on half power will need to be replaced at some moment. And ProRail requires new foreign trains entering the Netherlands having some sort of safety system, that would explain the ATB.
 

MisterT

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The official announcement with details for all plans (including their plan with these new locomotives) was originally planned for last year, but well, corona delayed things a bit, so it should be somewhere later this year now. I'm not allowed to say anything more at this moment about it, so I'm afraid that you have to wait a bit longer for it :smile:
 
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Stephen Lee

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It was certainly announced at the time RegioJet ordered their MS3 fleet that they would be getting 200km/h capable locos. But all the locos delivered so far are 160km/h. As far as I know there's never been a 200km/h TRAXX built, the choice if you wanted that top speed was Siemens or (if you were totally mad) Skoda.

Interesting to note that the new locos for Belgium are to get ETCS equipment from Alstom in Charleroi. Obviously a good move by Alstom for the local content, but probably smart from an operational perspective as the ex-Bombardier ETCS kit fitted to previous TRAXX3 builds has had on-going issues.
Why it is not approved for France.......
 

MarcVD

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Why it is not approved for France.......

Because it is not needed. HLE18 can go to France already.

Why would they want to compete with the service they operate together with NS?
On Dutch forums I read an explanation making more sense: the cross border services in Maastricht and Roosendaal, possibly using other services (for example extending an IC from Essen).
The MS75 and MS80, which are the only remaining stock capable of running on half power will need to be replaced at some moment. And ProRail requires new foreign trains entering the Netherlands having some sort of safety system, that would explain the ATB.

Service from Brussels to Amsterdam is currently made in cooperation between SNCB ans NS but I'm not sure it will stay that way once ICNG train sets enter service. Only NS ordered them, if a cooperation was still on the table, SNCB would have purchased some too. So most probably this will be Open Access. In those conditions, it is perfectly conceivable that SNCB wants to run its own.

Border services to Roosendaal and Maastricht do not justify usage of locomotive-hauled trains, they are more in the domain of EMUs. The service to Maastricht should be taken over by Veolia, if I'm not mistaken, once they get their act together with embarked signaling equipment. And MS80 still has 10 to 15 years of life expectancy anyway, they have just been refurbished.

The official announcement with details for all plans (including their plan with these new locomotives) was originally planned for last year, but well, corona delayed things a bit, so it should be somewhere later this year now. I'm not allowed to say anything more at this moment about it, so I'm afraid that you have to wait a bit longer for it :smile:

This kind if statement - I know and you won't, hahaha - may feel good for one's ego, but doesn't bring any value to this discussion.
 
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DanielB

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Service from Brussels to Amsterdam is currently made in cooperation between SNCB ans NS but I'm not sure it will stay that way once ICNG train sets enter service. Only NS ordered them, if a cooperation was still on the table, SNCB would have purchased some too. So most probably this will be Open Access. In those conditions, it is perfectly conceivable that SNCB wants to run its own.
Even NS hasn't ordered Belgium-capable ICNG yet. There's only one of them to do trials and approvals in advance, but no order has been placed yet for the triple voltage units.
Competing will be hard with loco-hauled trains that are max. 200 km/h capable, very doubtfull they'll be approved on the HSL Zuid which is built for 250 km/h and track operator Infraspeed is already complaining about to much wear due to the "slow" trains running on the line.
Via the classic line they would probably be able to get till Rotterdam (via Roosendaal), that's the only real option where capacity will be available (though the Willemstunnel in Rotterdam will be a limiting factor).

Border services to Roosendaal and Maastricht do not justify usage of locomotive-hauled trains, they are more in the domain of EMUs. The service to Maastricht should be taken over by Veolia, if I'm not mistaken, once they get their act together with embarked signaling equipment. And MS80 still has 10 to 15 years of life expectancy anyway, they have just been refurbished.
For Roosendaal there often have been ideas to extend an IC from Essen, for example with a loco hauled double decker. Never took place because M6 doesn't fit underneath a viaduct on the Dutch part, but these multi voltage locos would make such an extension easier.

Maastricht - Liège might once be taken over by Arriva indeed, if it actually is going to happen.
 

MarcVD

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For Roosendaal there often have been ideas to extend an IC from Essen, for example with a loco hauled double decker. Never took place because M6 doesn't fit underneath a viaduct on the Dutch part, but these multi voltage locos would make such an extension asier

If the limitation is the bridge height then it's not going to be solved anytime soon as all new hauled stock in Belgium is double decker.
 

DanielB

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The problematic bridge is the overpass of the A58 motorway, which NS double deckers also pass underneath. Thus, every centimeter matters: M6 is 17 cm higher than a VIRM, M7 is 7 cm lower so those would fit.
 

43096

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If the limitation is the bridge height then it's not going to be solved anytime soon as all new hauled stock in Belgium is double decker.
The new M7 double deckers are slightly smaller than the M6. It all depends on how much of a restriction the bridge height is - does it preclude all double deckers?
 

MisterT

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Even NS hasn't ordered Belgium-capable ICNG yet. There's only one of them to do trials and approvals in advance, but no order has been placed yet for the triple voltage units.

NS has ordered 18 units for Belgium years ago. The tests in Belgium with the two test units (there have been trials with two units in Belgium, including multiple running) have almost been completed and the units have returned to Alstom for retrofitting to the standard of the production units.

There have been numerous news reports about the order, for example: https://www.treinreiziger.nl/ns-bestelt-18-extra-icng-treinen-voor-ic-brussel/
 
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DanielB

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On Dutch forums a screenshot from the NS customer panel is circulating, showing a plan to introduce a faster IC Brussels service (integrated in the Dutch network, so probably ICNG) supplemented by a service via the current route (but only until Rotterdam). Could the latter be the service where the new NMBS locos need their ATB for?
 
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