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SNCF to restore Nice and Tarbes night trains?

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30907

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Mark Smith, the man in Seat61, has linked to a report in the Nice daily to the effect that the French government intends to reinstate two of the axed Intercites de Nuit - the Tarbes service IIRC was a portion of the surviving service on the Toulouse route.
https://www.nicematin.com/amp/vie-l...-le-retour-du-train-de-nuit-paris-nice-545652
Be interesting to see what rolling stock they propose, as the couchettes are Corail era IIRC.

Edit: from a different forum, the Nice train was most recently combined with the (still running, subsidised) Paris-Briancon as far as Valence.
 
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StephenHunter

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The Paris-Nice service was of course the 'Blue Train' until 2003. Be nice if they could bring that back...
 

popeter45

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for french night trains if there is a plan to reintroduce then i wonder what the long term rolling stock plan would be considering the rest of SNCF's network if moving away from corail coaches
for now think these will be surplus corail cars but gonna get harder to keep them as they turn into a microfleet
will they procure more coaches and keep it loco hauled or move to multiple units?
 

jamesontheroad

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If it’s SNCF that wins the contract (and, frankly, it’s highly unlikely to be anyone else), they have an important choice to make. Resume service with the many surplus Corail compartment/couchette stock and focus on the lower margin budget traveller or go big and invest in new rolling stock.

If they resume with Corail stock, they’re going to be competing with their own whatever-dumbass-name-it-is-today low-cost TGV services. Couchettes aren’t luxurious and sharing a compartment isn’t for everyone, so it would have to be cheap.

On the other hand, they could look across to Europe’s current leaders in night trains, ÖBB, and look at the range of low-cost/mid-range/premium accommodations coming on the new Nightjet fleet. Investing in new stock would be expensive, but allow them to attract a wider range of punters and different markets with potentially greater margins to offset less efficient space utilisation in “first class” sleeper carriages.

I suspect they might test the water for a few years with Corail and then make a decision whether to go for new. Here in Sweden, with only second hand Swedish and German carriages for night trains Transdev’s Snälltåget has always focused on the low-cost end of the market - nothing fancier than a couchette. If you want privacy buy the whole compartment. However when the current stock is life expired or when the company believes the market has developed, their next fleet will be interesting to see.
 

peteb

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Given we dont know how long Coronavirus will be affecting our lives into the future it would make sense to bring back 4 and or 6 berth corail couchettes. These could be sold as a fixed price one-way trip per compartment, so that families and groups could travel together, with maybe a small discount for solo travellers. You cant sleep in a mask so social distancing in shared couchettes seems impossible. Mind you there needs to be attention to shared on train facilities eg toilets, maybe constant janitor service throughout the trip?
 

peteb

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I think there could be great demand, given the lack of confidence in flying and the irritation of having to wear a mask for long periods in an open plan TGV carriage. I assume once in your compartment the mask can come off?
 

peteb

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Heritage railways in the UK are resuming services using booked compartments for 1 to 6 people. I'd have thought with masses of compartment stock still serviceable in Europe that's the way to go for long distance journeys whether by day or night, avoiding the need for masks in compartments except when at a ticket check.
 

duesselmartin

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Heritage railways in the UK are resuming services using booked compartments for 1 to 6 people. I'd have thought with masses of compartment stock still serviceable in Europe that's the way to go for long distance journeys whether by day or night, avoiding the need for masks in compartments except when at a ticket check.
Day compartment stock can be used by anybody and 6 strangers in a compartment is not unusual. So here the mask makes sense.

In night stock rules vary, but generally if one household occupies the compartment, maskes come off.
With infections rising in many countries including Germany, Belgium and France anything can change at any time.
 

StephenHunter

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Given we dont know how long Coronavirus will be affecting our lives into the future it would make sense to bring back 4 and or 6 berth corail couchettes. These could be sold as a fixed price one-way trip per compartment, so that families and groups could travel together, with maybe a small discount for solo travellers. You cant sleep in a mask so social distancing in shared couchettes seems impossible. Mind you there needs to be attention to shared on train facilities eg toilets, maybe constant janitor service throughout the trip?

The Alpen-Sylt Express service is already doing that fixed price for a compartment.
 

peteb

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The Alpen-Sylt Express service is already doing that fixed price for a compartment.
That seems a sensible Covid complaint solution. I guess the issue is SNCF will need longer trains to accommodate the more sparsely populated carriages. Looking at the current Paris-Toulouse-Port Bou service, that has a Brive-Rodez portion a couple of nights a week, so why not use that stock for a Tarbes portion on the other nights? I think it goes to Albi after Rodez then assume to Toulouse for servicing so wouldnt be impossible. But, better still, just add 3 vehicles for Tarbes to the consist?
 

peteb

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Having travelled Calais to Nice in the 80s via direct sleeper I wondered if there's a market for the Nice route starting from say, Lille, which would avoid the need to change from Eurostar to sleeper in Paris. The train could run direct to Gare de Lyon or Brecy and then reverse out to Valence - Briancon (portion detached), Marseille, Nice. It could serve UK as well as Benelux passengers but remain wholly within France.
 

StephenHunter

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Would that go via the Grande Ceinture in Paris?

Also, could you fit that in Lille Europe for the necessary time? I'm wondering if Calais might be a better starting point.
 

peteb

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Well ideally start Calais Ville then Lille but might not attract great numbers and the connection from Lille Europe to Lille SNCF is easy enough.
 

Ianno87

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Having travelled Calais to Nice in the 80s via direct sleeper I wondered if there's a market for the Nice route starting from say, Lille, which would avoid the need to change from Eurostar to sleeper in Paris. The train could run direct to Gare de Lyon or Brecy and then reverse out to Valence - Briancon (portion detached), Marseille, Nice. It could serve UK as well as Benelux passengers but remain wholly within France.
Would that go via the Grande Ceinture in Paris?

Also, could you fit that in Lille Europe for the necessary time? I'm wondering if Calais might be a better starting point.
Well ideally start Calais Ville then Lille but might not attract great numbers and the connection from Lille Europe to Lille SNCF is easy enough.

A summer only Lille-Nice train ran until about 2010 or so...I used it in 2008. Ran into Lille Flandres.

Last pick up/set down stop was Longeau (Amiens), which would imply via Grande Ceinture.
 

popeter45

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may be a fair bit overkill but converting Reseau carriages could be intersting and give then a second life as well as potentially allowing any sleeper service to make short usage of LGV lines during second of the journey when they are open like LGV nord for something like Nice-Lille or even HSL lines for something like Lyon-Amsterdam
 

peteb

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If a night train could use a LGV it could pick up at a satellite station for Paris eg: Eurodisney or CDG and perhaps make faster progress. And the straight-ish LGV and lack of stations with bumpy paintwork en route might make for a better nights sleep? Lille-Marseille would seem the obvious route?
 

30907

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That seems a sensible Covid complaint solution. I guess the issue is SNCF will need longer trains to accommodate the more sparsely populated carriages. Looking at the current Paris-Toulouse-Port Bou service, that has a Brive-Rodez portion a couple of nights a week, so why not use that stock for a Tarbes portion on the other nights? I think it goes to Albi after Rodez then assume to Toulouse for servicing so wouldnt be impossible. But, better still, just add 3 vehicles for Tarbes to the consist?
Running to Tarbes only on the quiet nights is pointless - stick with the extra vehicles! BTW Port Bou is also seasonal, isn't it?
Having travelled Calais to Nice in the 80s via direct sleeper I wondered if there's a market for the Nice route starting from say, Lille, which would avoid the need to change from Eurostar to sleeper in Paris. The train could run direct to Gare de Lyon or Brecy and then reverse out to Valence - Briancon (portion detached), Marseille, Nice. It could serve UK as well as Benelux passengers but remain wholly within France.
Track access charges (even on the old line) would probably rule that out. The main market for Nice is Paris, which is why it survived longer.
If a night train could use a LGV it could pick up at a satellite station for Paris eg: Eurodisney or CDG and perhaps make faster progress. And the straight-ish LGV and lack of stations with bumpy paintwork en route might make for a better nights sleep? Lille-Marseille would seem the obvious route?, so that's out.
I hope the bumpy paintwork doesn't bubble up into a serious issue :).
The LGVs require in-cab signalling, TVM 430?
 

STEVIEBOY1

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I had an email newsletter yesterday which mentioned this sleeper service. However it did also say, that it may not happen for a couple of years owing to technical issues.
 

popeter45

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I had an email newsletter yesterday which mentioned this sleeper service. However it did also say, that it may not happen for a couple of years owing to technical issues.
that would indicate more long term investment than just slapping some old corail carriages together to recreate the old service
either major refurbishment/refit of corail cars or procurement of new rolling stock
 

StephenHunter

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There's a good deal of older carriages around with the charter companies, but I'm not sure that passengers will want to ride on AB30s ultimately of 1950s vintage...
 

30907

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There's a good deal of older carriages around with the charter companies, but I'm not sure that passengers will want to ride on AB30s ultimately of 1950s vintage...
The older OeBB car I sampled was very nice, certainly the compartment with shower - nicer than the much newer Comfortlines IMO - but they will be high-maintenance by now. (Wasn't an AB30, those were stainless steel IIRC)W

ISTR the previous generation of Russian cars were tried on the Nice run before it folded - some of them are in Slovakia now, but there might be some spares?
 

Jamesrob637

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The older OeBB car I sampled was very nice, certainly the compartment with shower - nicer than the much newer Comfortlines IMO - but they will be high-maintenance by now. (Wasn't an AB30, those were stainless steel IIRC)W

ISTR the previous generation of Russian cars were tried on the Nice run before it folded - some of them are in Slovakia now, but there might be some spares?

Doesn't Nice to Moscow run anymore? Or is it just suspended because of COVID?
 

StephenHunter

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Suspended because of Covid-19. They're using newer Siemens cars. Believe the ex-RZD stock is indeed operating EN services for ZSSK.
 

Alfie1014

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Doesn't Nice to Moscow run anymore? Or is it just suspended because of COVID?
Wasn’t there a suggestion a few years back that Paris-Nice might be operated using the RZD stock completing the triangle of routes Moscow-Nice-Paris-Moscow? Though with relations with Russia generally at the moment not being so good perhaps not!
 

30907

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Wasn’t there a suggestion a few years back that Paris-Nice might be operated using the RZD stock completing the triangle of routes Moscow-Nice-Paris-Moscow? Though with relations with Russia generally at the moment not being so good perhaps not!
I also recall this.
However, travel from/to Russia had dropped off significantly pre Covid.
 
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