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Snow: railways can't win

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HSTEd

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This might soudn very silly... but wouldn't it be possible to fit heating grids over the cooling air intakes that would heat the incoming air above freezing and likely melt any snow that got into the intakes, preventing it from clogging up the system (as presumably water would likely just blow straight through?).

I imagine the traction motors are designed to work at rated output in temperatures in the mid to high twenties anyway so heating the air up to ~15 degrees celsius is not going to kill them.
 

Dave1987

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This might soudn very silly... but wouldn't it be possible to fit heating grids over the cooling air intakes that would heat the incoming air above freezing and likely melt any snow that got into the intakes, preventing it from clogging up the system (as presumably water would likely just blow straight through?).

I imagine the traction motors are designed to work at rated output in temperatures in the mid to high twenties anyway so heating the air up to ~15 degrees celsius is not going to kill them.

Ive never actually been underneath a 321 so couldn't tell you whether the traction motors have drain holes for moisture. I do know they were fitted with ducts to try and stop the snow from getting to the cooling vents. Im not exactly sure how effective these ducts are. I think control were just playing it ultra safe as they didnt want a repeat of a couple of years ago when the units were failing with traction motor problems.
 

chuckles1066

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The problem we have is that there is just no proper money invested in the railway infrastrucutre to cope with snow, so that the railway continues to run without fuss, it just grinds to a hault with delays and cancellations.

And that's PRECISELY why you get moans and groans.

Every January the above-inflation rises kick in with all the promises of more rolling stock, better services etc and yet we all know that extra money is going anywhere BUT providing anything that benefits the mug punter stood on the platform at 7a.m on a January morning.
 

Bald Rick

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Some history and facts.

GA have contingency snow timetables for the GE and WA sides of the franchise. These were developed in 2011 following the ongoing disruption that followed the heavy snow events in 2009 and 2010. In the latter case trains were cancelled / short formed until May 2011 due to repairs being made to snow damaged traction motors.

The timetable is based on reduced use of certain routes (so some points don't need to swing) and reduced speed of certain stock to reduce snow ingress to motors and door pockets. It also limits the amount of snow that builds up on the underside of trains that slowly melts in the turnaround at Liverpool St, falling off in great lumps of solid ice into the points just outside.

The decision to activate the contingency timetable for the whole day has to be taken no later than 0900 the previous day, so that the timetable itself can be uploaded into the relevant systems by 2200 and all staff advised. The weather forecast is provided at 0300 for that 0900 decision, and is thus at least 24 hours old, and rarely with a probability of accuracy greater than 60% in terms of timing and quantity of snowfall.

So the decision makers have to balance the risk of certain, but planned and known disruption with the ability to advise passengers, against the unknown quantity of unplanned disruption of unknown severity and the complications that brings in keeping passengers informed. It's a particularly difficult call if the snow is due to arrive during the evening peak.
 

tbtc

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Some history and facts.

GA have contingency snow timetables for the GE and WA sides of the franchise. These were developed in 2011 following the ongoing disruption that followed the heavy snow events in 2009 and 2010. In the latter case trains were cancelled / short formed until May 2011 due to repairs being made to snow damaged traction motors.

The timetable is based on reduced use of certain routes (so some points don't need to swing) and reduced speed of certain stock to reduce snow ingress to motors and door pockets. It also limits the amount of snow that builds up on the underside of trains that slowly melts in the turnaround at Liverpool St, falling off in great lumps of solid ice into the points just outside.

The decision to activate the contingency timetable for the whole day has to be taken no later than 0900 the previous day, so that the timetable itself can be uploaded into the relevant systems by 2200 and all staff advised. The weather forecast is provided at 0300 for that 0900 decision, and is thus at least 24 hours old, and rarely with a probability of accuracy greater than 60% in terms of timing and quantity of snowfall.

So the decision makers have to balance the risk of certain, but planned and known disruption with the ability to advise passengers, against the unknown quantity of unplanned disruption of unknown severity and the complications that brings in keeping passengers informed. It's a particularly difficult call if the snow is due to arrive during the evening peak.

Very interesting (as usual) - I hope that a lot of people take the time to read that
 

87015

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Some history and facts.

GA have contingency snow timetables for the GE and WA sides of the franchise. These were developed in 2011 following the ongoing disruption that followed the heavy snow events in 2009 and 2010. In the latter case trains were cancelled / short formed until May 2011 due to repairs being made to snow damaged traction motors.

The timetable is based on reduced use of certain routes (so some points don't need to swing) and reduced speed of certain stock to reduce snow ingress to motors and door pockets. It also limits the amount of snow that builds up on the underside of trains that slowly melts in the turnaround at Liverpool St, falling off in great lumps of solid ice into the points just outside.

The decision to activate the contingency timetable for the whole day has to be taken no later than 0900 the previous day, so that the timetable itself can be uploaded into the relevant systems by 2200 and all staff advised. The weather forecast is provided at 0300 for that 0900 decision, and is thus at least 24 hours old, and rarely with a probability of accuracy greater than 60% in terms of timing and quantity of snowfall.

So the decision makers have to balance the risk of certain, but planned and known disruption with the ability to advise passengers, against the unknown quantity of unplanned disruption of unknown severity and the complications that brings in keeping passengers informed. It's a particularly difficult call if the snow is due to arrive during the evening peak.

Almost. As you say, everybody has A for B snow timetables sent last year to NR which can be pulled off the shelf. The decision is not made at 0900 however, you have to show an interest by 1100 and the final go / no go is 1500 to allow NR to implement it for the 2200 upload.

Regardless of the industry process, thats not what Greater Anglia even did on Monday - no snow plan was used, formally at least. The snow plan operation involves a full day of revised timetables, unit and crew diagrams issued the day before, which did not occur. Its also even in the lightest plan far more disruptive than a small selection of peak cancellations, the full Key Route Strategy leaves most of the branches without trains.

Even if they had played it safe and cancelled off the PM trains in advance to save PPM, there was no reason they could not have been VSTP'd back into existence then the end customer would have been unlikely to see a difference. Other SE TOCs came out of Monday AM weather conference confident that the evening peak in East London was very likely to be fine, that would have given GA plenty of time to VSTP the trains back in and they could have saved themselves yet more negative PR.
 
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142094

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Very interesting (as usual) - I hope that a lot of people take the time to read that

Probably would be a good idea if that info was displayed at stations, so passengers actually know the reasons for the changes. Instead, all you get is a chorus of "one snowflake and the whole system goes to pot".
 

DarloRich

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Perhaps we should cosider the words of Shakespere in As You Like It, Act II, Scene VII:

"Blow, blow thou wintry wind, thou art not so unkind as man’s ingratitude”
 

Mojo

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What snow? I haven't seen any snow settling since Winter last year.
 

Goatboy

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I wonder what the results would be if you gave passengers a simple survey.

Your fares continually rise. Do you want the money spent on:

a) Electrification everywhere!
b) Basic reliability modifications and increased maintenance of the existing network so that it's more resilient.
 

HSTEd

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Electrification would require several thousand new vehicles, which would bring about significant reliability improvements (since they would presumably be hardened against snow related issues).
 

tsr

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I've seen at least 3 thin coverings on the pavements, if not the roads and rail lines where I live since the start of December.

Mojo's location is listed publicly as "London W12". Whilst I do not deny that Mojo does get to other areas of Britain, I would suggest that this primary location would be less prone to settling snow. That doesn't mean it can't happen tomorrow or indeed any time the conditions are right, but it's rarer than rural and suburban locations. I would suggest that all services in suburban or rural areas could potentially be disrupted by snowfall tomorrow, except perhaps in the Penzance area and maybe in some areas of Scotland. I hope I am wrong, as I myself have a reasonably important journey to make!
 

Goatboy

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Electrification would require several thousand new vehicles, which would bring about significant reliability improvements.

No, most of the newly electrified sections are relying on cascaded old trains - 30 year old trains for Wales and 25 year old Class 319's for the GWML...

It's electric trains that are having trouble with the snow, no issues with snow getting into the motors on 158's is there?
 

TGV

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It's electric trains that are having trouble with the snow, no issues with snow getting into the motors on 158's is there?

Indeed. You should see the state of a TGV that's been running in heavy or compacted snow at 320km/h. The damage sustained to the underside is incredible from ballast strikes. Not uncommon to have windows smashed also. They work fine though - until some part of the signalling kit is knocked out of action of course. It all comes down to economics: What is most important - continuing to run trains to the normal timetable knowing that there will be heavy repairs to them which takes time and money during which more routine maintenance will suffer and cancellations will take place while the fleet is diminished, or take a hit on punctuality knowing that at least you can provide a predictable service.

I think the general public would prefer the latter.
 

HSTEd

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No, most of the newly electrified sections are relying on cascaded old trains - 30 year old trains for Wales and 25 year old Class 319's for the GWML...

It's electric trains that are having trouble with the snow, no issues with snow getting into the motors on 158's is there?

Yes, but that is not "electrification everywhere" by any estimate,

Old cascaded units could not hope to replace all the Turbostars, Networker Turbos, Sprinters, Voyagers, Pacers and other stock that would be eliminated by total electrification.
 

Ze Random One

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Indeed. You should see the state of a TGV that's been running in heavy or compacted snow at 320km/h. The damage sustained to the underside is incredible from ballast strikes. Not uncommon to have windows smashed also. They work fine though - until some part of the signalling kit is knocked out of action of course. It all comes down to economics: What is most important - continuing to run trains to the normal timetable knowing that there will be heavy repairs to them which takes time and money during which more routine maintenance will suffer and cancellations will take place while the fleet is diminished, or take a hit on punctuality knowing that at least you can provide a predictable service.

I think the general public would prefer the latter.

Indeed, this is why SNCF are restricting parts of LGV Nord to 170km/h tomorrow.

It should also be noted that NS have been running modified (reduced) services for the last two days in the Netherlands, most of their routes seeing a reduction in service, to ensure a relatively sensible service can be maintained.
 

Deerfold

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Mojo's location is listed publicly as "London W12". Whilst I do not deny that Mojo does get to other areas of Britain, I would suggest that this primary location would be less prone to settling snow. That doesn't mean it can't happen tomorrow or indeed any time the conditions are right, but it's rarer than rural and suburban locations. I would suggest that all services in suburban or rural areas could potentially be disrupted by snowfall tomorrow, except perhaps in the Penzance area and maybe in some areas of Scotland. I hope I am wrong, as I myself have a reasonably important journey to make!

There's plenty on the platforms at Leeds at the moment! Not to mention a few people who are going to have to de-ice their cars and remove quite a lot of snow from them in the car park.
 

tsr

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There's plenty on the platforms at Leeds at the moment! Not to mention a few people who are going to have to de-ice their cars and remove quite a lot of snow from them in the car park.

Yep, there are weak(ish) bands of snowfall moving across parts of the UK at the mo. This is a precursor to what is currently expected to be a main occluded frontal system moving East and colliding with cold air tomorrow. I hope that NR/TOC measures are generally able to cope this evening - tomorrow will be something else entirely in some areas...
 

SPADTrap

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Be interesting to see if SWT get the bashing in the media that GA got!

Knowing GAs luck it will snow incredible amounts and they'll be hailed as making the best decision ever.

Meanwhile GA will run a full service and the inevitable will occur

<D
 

jon0844

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The BBC (London news) reported SWT and others cancelling trains tomorrow but didn't seem to want to explain why, so that's probably already got commuters angry!
 
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