Snow: railways can't win

[Butts]

The BBC (London news) reported SWT and others cancelling trains tomorrow but didn't seem to want to explain why, so that's probably already got commuters angry!

No snow in Falkirk yet,but my ex-wifes School in Birmingham is closed t'rrow, they made the decision at Lunchtime.

Jammy bugger get's the day off with pay

 

[455driver]

This might answer a bit, I posted this in another thread and copied it to here so you are seeing double!-

Met office is saying the South East will get 40 hours of snow over the next 3 days.

SWT are instigating the snow plan "just in case", if they wait for it to snow the crews and trains will be in the wrong place, there are more trains already running causing congestion at terminal stations as they then need extra drivers (which wont be available at the best of times never mind when its snowing) to get rid of the excess trains and there are then issues if the relieving crews are not available at intermediate stations such as Woking, Basingstoke, Bournemouth etc meaning platforms get blocked and a lot of fed up passengers being left halfway home. All this is why it goes base over apex as it did 2 years ago when they tried to implement the plan at Lunch time which is the last thing they want to be doing.

The snow plan requires-
Less trains and crews so giving a margin for staff who cant get in,
The running times are also slower to allow for the extra driving requirements (extra brake tests, 10mph below linespeed etc) which minimising snow being ingested into the running gear causing failures,
Some services wont run so the points at "delicate" junctions can remain in one direction, its the changing of the points that compacts the snow in the blades causing the failures.

There is more but that will do for now.

 

[Dave1987]

Seriously guys I would be interested to see the media and social network coverage of the decisions to implement snow timetables. Which TOC's are praised and which are slated. Unfortunately Im sure on GEML no matter what happens passengers will slate the railway

 

[HH]

GA put the "snow timetable" in last night. Forewarned is forearmed so I left early and had no problems getting in. Very light snow overnight and none this morning, again.

The question is really whether some TOCs are 'crying wolf', and will it come back to bite them...

 

[Pugwash]

GA put the "snow timetable" in last night. Forewarned is forearmed so I left early and had no problems getting in. Very light snow overnight and none this morning, again.

The question is really whether some TOCs are 'crying wolf', and will it come back to bite them...

I did the same, but I noticed there was not any advertising of the revised timetable for returning commuters last night, a bit of a PR own goal from Greater Anglia.

 

[HSTEd]

If changing the timetable at short notice to reduce the number of trains doesn't count as cancelling some trains..... then companies would have a free pass and would never have to cancel a train.

"Oh sorry we changed the timetable so the next train won't be running".

 

[jon0844]

If changing the timetable at short notice to reduce the number of trains doesn't count as cancelling some trains..... then companies would have a free pass and would never have to cancel a train.

"Oh sorry we changed the timetable so the next train won't be running".

True, but I'd argue that TOCs should be allowed to change timetables (to ones previously planned and agreed, not made up on the spot) for things like snow or heavy rain - well any bad weather.

The key is providing information to passengers that this is happening, whether on their own site, Twitter, text alerts, the National Rail website or via the media - which should have a duty to convey this information rather than just refer to a changed (emergency) timetable as a load of cancellations.

I don't know if FCC has changed its service for today, but I can say that - despite being signed up for text alerts - I haven't had anything from them to say what's happening.

It wouldn't be a charter to simply change the timetable at random, nor is there any sign that any TOCs are doing this or trying to?

 

[GB]

The snow fall seems to be very localised at the moment. That can't help with trying to plan an emergency timetable!

 

[philjo]

I don't know if FCC has changed its service for today, but I can say that - despite being signed up for text alerts - I haven't had anything from them to say what's happening.

It wouldn't be a charter to simply change the timetable at random, nor is there any sign that any TOCs are doing this or trying to?

FCC website currently states that they are planning to run a normal service today

FCC Website:
Weather Advice

Snow and icy weather conditions are forecast across our network today which may disrupt our services. We plan to run a normal service, however this may change with the conditions. Please check our live train updates page before travelling and allow additional time for your journey if necessary.

FCC used to have their standard emergency timetable available on the website (& a few years back it was also included in the printed winter timetable booklet) but they don't seem to publicise it any more - maybe so they can use a different version depending on the location/severity of the weather.

 

[jon0844]

I won't be using the train today, but we have friends coming from Sweden and they've already been informed their flight is delayed by about an hour due to inbound delays at Heathrow - and then they have to make it from Heathrow to Hatfield by rail!

How ironic that they're coming from a place where there's loads more snow.

 

[island]

I have designs on going to Heathrow for an 0920 flight in the morning...

 

[Dave1987]

I think one of the big problems with GEML is that it is an extremely congested line. So they need to make a decision early and there is little scope to reverse that decision if weather not as bad as forecast.

 

[tbtc]

The news channels are still reporting the changed timetables as cancellations, which I presume will only go to make people angry (and panic). It's a shame that they couldn't say there are revised timetables in place to minimise possible disruption, and to check before travel (and of course, leave earlier).

Even though the Met Office suggested we'd get snow around midday-1pm, it's now 0936 and snow has been falling for around 40 minutes - and it's settling nicely. Fairly light snow for now, but if it ramps up then our road will probably be a nightmare to drive along before snow was even predicted.

Those that instigated special timetables today will probably be proven to have made the right decision, but most commuters won't appreciate it and will probably be angry - no doubt Twitter and Facebook already full of such comments.

Agreed - damned if they do and damned if they don't.

(also, off topic, but there should be a law that anyone who doesn't appreciate the differences in types of snow shouldn't be allowed to do the eye rolling smug response about "the wrong type of snow")

 

[bronzeonion]

In Japan they fit sprinklers to the track so the snow melts and runs clear of the trackwork.

Although that might be hard to implement on lines that aren't concrete slab as you would be dumping huge amounts of water onto the ballast.

Yes they have that and also have people down on track putting small parafin heaters underneath the actual rails on pointwork where parts move, or any other sensitive part of the trackwork.

As seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfkLEJAYk0

 

[Max]

I've shuffled a few posts around for the sake of tidyness. Feel free to discuss general points about the railway's reaction to snow here.

For specific problems on the network today, see here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=77915

 

[Pugwash]

I think one of the big problems with GEML is that it is an extremely congested line. So they need to make a decision early and there is little scope to reverse that decision if weather not as bad as forecast.

The problem was a lack of communication, GA could have explained over the tannoy on the train before leaving Liverpool St and Stratford the night before and put signs / boards up at the station. GA used to text people, this was in their tender bid, they failed to bother last night or this morning.

As it was people turned up at the station to find no snow and trains cancelled.

If people were forewarned they could have just changed their schedule to accommodate.

I am therefore not surprised they are getting some abuse for their failure to communicate with customers.

 

[D1009]

I think one of the big problems with GEML is that it is an extremely congested line. So they need to make a decision early and there is little scope to reverse that decision if weather not as bad as forecast.

So is SWT's network, and they did make the decision early and have earned praise on BBC News 24 today for doing so, even saying they have learnt lessons from previous incidents.

 

[infobleep]

There are problems with London Midland trains from Tring to Euston and Southern trains to Clapham Junction. However the only info one I can find is the status of delayed by any train or cancelled without a reason given.

Surely it wouldn't be that diffcult to put up a reason for this. Even if it is poor weather conditions.

South West Trains are to be praised for given advanced warning. I often find London Midland trains are listed as being delayed without any reason given. This is the case whatever the weather.

I have asked London Midland and Southern on Tweeter so may hear an update from them if the person monitoring Twitter has time. One person dealing with all this information and questions can't be easy. But full marks to the people tweeting as part of thier job. Sometimes they are the only source of information.

Well it appears that London Midland didn't get it right and should have implemented an emergancy timetable. I am certain their person dealing with Tweeter is over run with comments as a result because I sent one 25 minutes ago and no response.

We now have the situation on National Rail Enquries where trains are just listed as delayed without a reason. Now the previous inbound train is running 37 minutes late so no wonder it is late. However it takes a user with knowledge of what train froms the next train to figure all of this out. Surely London Midland could provide information rather than maintaining silence on this perticular subject, tweeter excepted because I'm sure they will or would reply if they had time.

Southern did implement an emergnacy timetable but they are still claiming the West London Line only has minor delays. I wouldn't call cancellations or 33 minute delays as minor.

I'm not objecting to delays, it is snowing after all, but they should be able to give out better information than this. Silence should not be golden.

 

[oversteer]

It is apparently due to speed restrictions, trains are arriving and departing Euston but as soon as a few delays occur the whole timetable gets shot to pieces. I believe the Tring stoppers are cancelled and LM are running to MK stopping en route. If you can get to Watford Junction then LO are running a near normal service! Good luck

 

[dk1]

There are problems with London Midland trains from Tring to Euston and Southern trains to Clapham Junction. However the only info one I can find is the status of delayed by any train or cancelled without a reason given.

Aren't the Tring services cancelled on a daily basis anyway due to driver shortages?

 

[infobleep]

It is apparently due to speed restrictions, trains are arriving and departing Euston but as soon as a few delays occur the whole timetable gets shot to pieces. I believe the Tring stoppers are cancelled and LM are running to MK stopping en route. If you can get to Watford Junction then LO are running a near normal service! Good luck

Thank you for your comments. The Tring stoppers are certainly not cancelled if National Rail Enquries is to believe.

It is is due to speed restrictions I do not see why they are not able to say that or put poor weather conditions. It's been totally ignored. I sometimes wonder if London Midland care about their Tring services. They are nearly always running late whatever the weather. Southern on the other hand are normally only delayed when London Midland are running late. It is rare for a Southern west London line train be delayed to reasons relating to that train.

All I'm asking for is information to be announced. Not for them to run a better service during these snowy times. Although whether they should have implemented an emergancy timetable is of course something to consider. I don't know if the weather experts expected quite this amount of snow on their lines.

They need to learn from South West Trains. A best practice session would be good. However I normally can't fault the people answering London Midland's Tweeter feed. They normally respond when I ask questions, which is mostly due to the fact no information is being put elsewhere. I rarely ask South West Trains questions because the information is normally online.

 

[HSTEd]

True, but I'd argue that TOCs should be allowed to change timetables (to ones previously planned and agreed, not made up on the spot) for things like snow or heavy rain - well any bad weather.

It wouldn't be a charter to simply change the timetable at random, nor is there any sign that any TOCs are doing this or trying to?

In that case the "emergency timetable" should be decided at the same time a sthe regular timetable during the process leading up to each timetable change.

The timetable should then be published to the same degree as the regular timetable (ie. it should be posted at all stations all the time and be included on all timetable leaflets distributed on the system or elsewhere, as well as an option on the NRE web-planner to enable it for future date journeys).

There should then be a limit on the number of days a train operator will be allowed to use the emergency timetable during any one timetable period and the subsidy payments they recieve for those days should be altered to reflect the reduced number of train miles run under said emergeancy timetable.

Anything else is just a recipe for abuse in my opinion.

 

[jon0844]

I thought emergency timetables WERE published in the past? Is that not the case now?

 

[Dave1987]

So is SWT's network, and they did make the decision early and have earned praise on BBC News 24 today for doing so, even saying they have learnt lessons from previous incidents.

Sorry but SWT's line is completely different to the line GA operate on. If GA tried to operate a full service and then had to impose a 60mph speed restriction due to the snow then the line would have servere delays as the paths are so tightly packed together. The question I would ask passengers on GEML is would you rather GA attempt a full service and have major delays or take the decision early to implement emergency snow timetable and have less services yes but no major delays??

 

[dk1]

Damned if they dont, damned if they do. Always somebody who thinks they know better :roll:

 

[Jeremy B]

In that case the "emergency timetable" should be decided at the same time a sthe regular timetable during the process leading up to each timetable change.

The timetable should then be published to the same degree as the regular timetable (ie. it should be posted at all stations all the time and be included on all timetable leaflets distributed on the system or elsewhere, as well as an option on the NRE web-planner to enable it for future date journeys).

There should then be a limit on the number of days a train operator will be allowed to use the emergency timetable during any one timetable period and the subsidy payments they recieve for those days should be altered to reflect the reduced number of train miles run under said emergeancy timetable.

Anything else is just a recipe for abuse in my opinion.

Meanwhile back in the real world............

 

[Dave1987]

Damned if they dont, damned if they do. Always somebody who thinks they know better :roll:

Indeed. The controllers can see the bigger picture as they have all the info infront of them to make an educated decision based on the weather forecast and other factors. They can also talk directly to Network Rail (who are on the opposite side of the room) about what kind of service is feasible.

 

[D1009]

Sorry but SWT's line is completely different to the line GA operate on.

In what way ?

 

[HSTEd]

Meanwhile back in the real world............

Would it really cost so much to put up an extra timetable in every station on the network every time they already put up a timetable?

Its not as if its going to require significantly more staff hours since I imagine most of the hours taken to replace timetables is spent in transit to unmanned stations, and you woudl still only have to visit each station once.

If the Train Operator is going to activate this "emergency" timetable with some regularity why should it not be displayed in the same manner as ordinary timetables?

And I somehow doubt having an extra couple of pieces of paper on all those timetable booklets is going to cost the earth.

 

[455driver]

Damned if they dont, damned if they do. Always somebody who thinks they know better :roll:

And its normally a "platform ender" who has played on a train sim for 5 minutes which has obviously equipped them with all they need to know to run all the TOCs single handed. :roll: