Snow: railways can't win

[Dave1987]

In what way ?

Because they are two totally seperate railways operating on different infrastructure with different spaces between paths, different stopping requirements. On GEML your have smaller stations like Kelvedon and Marks Tey on a 100mph main line that have to be served. Ideally these stations would have passing loops so express services can overtake stopping services. They are just not comparable.

 

[D1009]

Because they are two totally seperate railways operating on different infrastructure with different spaces between paths, different stopping requirements. On GEML your have smaller stations like Kelvedon and Marks Tey on a 100mph main line that have to be served. Ideally these stations would have passing loops so express services can overtake stopping services. They are just not comparable.

There are 8 lines out of Waterloo which normally carry trains at up to 2 min intervals which diverge a few miles out and lead to different destinations. There are 6 lines out of Liverpool Street which also carry trains at up to 2 minute headway which diverge a few miles out and lead to different destinations. SWT has a contingency plan to allow for weather related disruption. GA doesn't. Why not?

 

[swt_passenger]

There are 8 lines out of Waterloo which normally carry trains at up to 2 min intervals which diverge a few miles out and lead to different destinations. There are 6 lines out of Liverpool Street which also carry trains at up to 2 minute headway which diverge a few miles out and lead to different destinations. SWT has a contingency plan to allow for weather related disruption. GA doesn't. Why not?

Concur. Indeed NR's descriptions of the existing fast line capacity problems on both routes, are almost identical. Both relevant sections of the London & SE RUS describe the fast pair of lines as running at 24 tph with a theoretical 28 tph possible, with the latter being considered too unreliable. I'd be tending towards 'quite similar'...

 

[Dave1987]

SWT out of Waterloo is 4 track all the way to Basingstoke, All junctions are "flying junctions" so trains can cross to branch lines etc without conflicting with other moves. This means that trains can run without getting checked down all the time so they can run at linespeed easier so the paths are not so close together. The infrastructure that SWT operate on is much better than GEML. GEML is only 4 track to Shenfield. But because Metro stopping services operate on the up/down electrics and are at 10 min intervals the electric lines are not a option for mainline services. So mainline trains run on a 2 track mainline all the way. To Shenfield on 2 lines you have Southend Vic/Clacton/Colchester Town/Ipswich/Norwich services. The GEML is extremely congested. SWT have far superior infrastructure to operate on. Thats why you cannot compare the two Im afraid.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are 8 lines out of Waterloo which normally carry trains at up to 2 min intervals which diverge a few miles out and lead to different destinations. There are 6 lines out of Liverpool Street which also carry trains at up to 2 minute headway which diverge a few miles out and lead to different destinations. SWT has a contingency plan to allow for weather related disruption. GA doesn't. Why not?

GA does. See above.

 

[infobleep]

My following commnets are slightly negative because I'm trying to put the point of view of someone who thinks the railways can do no right in times like this. I think South West Trains have tired their best but I do think there is always room for improvement. Also I think they are about to do things that many commuters will fail to see the logic of as many commuters do not understand how the railways work.

Today South West Trains tried to run a normal Sunday service. Now did they not know it was going to snow today? I believe the snow was due to finish by 12pm but didn't. That would be hard to predict.

The reason I ask this is because tomorrow they are running a revised timetable. It seems that they did eventually reroute the trains today that usually go through Bookham. In return they ran replacement buses. They also had buses replacing trains between Ascot and Aldershot.

When a sudden disruption occurs, they do try to find replacement buses and I am surprised at how they are able to do this so quickly. I mean even on week days they are able at times to sort it out. Given that is the case, why can't they have replacement buses serving Bookham tomorrow, as well as Ascot to Aldershot? Or is it simply that they can't do it all day long on a week day.

Also today Addlestone and Chertsy had a train service, yet they do not get one tomorrow? Can't South West Trains provide the same Sunday service tomorrow, but perhaps with an earlier start time than on Sundays? Or has the fact there was engineering works today meant they have the trains and crew to cover these stations and lines but won't tomorrow as all lines that had engineering works today will be open.

It looks like it will snow tomorrow but not as badly as today, yet they can't provide a train service that matches today.

Now a commuter with no understand of how the railways works will find it rather odd and ridiculous that on Sunday they can run a train services to stations when it's snowing but on Monday they cannot.

On a personal note I love the snow and would like as much as possible, no matter how it inconveniences myself or any other person travelling by train. However I do spare a thought for those out in it who can't when they feel like it go into the warm.

I must just add that where possible SWT are going to try and provide additional peak time services where the weather allows. It will be interesting to see how they are able to do this at such short notice. Will more main line trains run during the morning and evening peaks? After all train crews have to know where to turn up to drive trains. No teleporting available yet. Of course it may be that they are all being told to turn up, even though a reduced service is being run. After all I imagine train crews get paid whether they are required or not. So if they all turn up they can put on extra trains. This assumes the trains are in the right place in order to be able to do that.

 

[455driver]

I must just add that where possible SWT are going to try and provide additional peak time services where the weather allows. It will be interesting to see how they are able to do this at such short notice. Will more main line trains run during the morning and evening peaks? After all train crews have to know where to turn up to drive trains. No teleporting available yet. Of course it may be that they are all being told to turn up, even though a reduced service is being run. After all I imagine train crews get paid whether they are required or not. So if they all turn up they can put on extra trains. This assumes the trains are in the right place in order to be able to do that.

All train crew will sign on at their normal start time (if they can get in at all) and so when operating the snow timetable (assuming everyone makes it in of course) with most train-crew out working the amended diagrams they will still have a few spare crews sat in the mess-room and they will use these crews to work the additional services, if there are no spare crews then they wont run but as they are not advertised anyway it doesnt matter.

The whole point of the snow timetable is that it gives the railway a much better chance of running everything in the revised timetable so the passenger can be more certain of what is actually running, which has to be better than trying to run a full normal timetable knowing full well that most trains will run late (due to the different rules drivers have to keep to in snow) and so some trains wont run, factor in the number of crews that cant get in and it just makes it worse.

 

[infobleep]

All train crew will sign on at their normal start time (if they can get in at all) and so when operating the snow timetable (assuming everyone makes it in of course) with most train-crew out working the amended diagrams they will still have a few spare crews sat in the mess-room and they will use these crews to work the additional services, if there are no spare crews then they wont run but as they are not advertised anyway it doesnt matter.

The whole point of the snow timetable is that it gives the railway a much better chance of running everything in the revised timetable so the passenger can be more certain of what is actually running, which has to be better than trying to run a full normal timetable knowing full well that most trains will run late (due to the different rules drivers have to keep to in snow) and so some trains wont run, factor in the number of crews that cant get in and it just makes it worse.

I agree with that but if that's the case I'm surprised STW did not run an amended timetable yesterday.

 

[A-driver]

Would it really cost so much to put up an extra timetable in every station on the network every time they already put up a timetable?

Its not as if its going to require significantly more staff hours since I imagine most of the hours taken to replace timetables is spent in transit to unmanned stations, and you woudl still only have to visit each station once.

If the Train Operator is going to activate this "emergency" timetable with some regularity why should it not be displayed in the same manner as ordinary timetables?

And I somehow doubt having an extra couple of pieces of paper on all those timetable booklets is going to cost the earth.

It's nothing to do with cost, its the fact that they can't just come up with an annual 'emergency timetable' which they will then use in disruption. The whole point of an Emergancy timetable is that it is written at the last minute in response to disruption. Snow may be one cause of it being implemented, as may any other major disruption-overhead wires coming down for a couple of days (like happened at hitchin before Xmas), emergancy engineering works closing a line, flooding, emergancy services closing a line (due to lineside fires etc).

They can't plan timetables for every single eventuality so they have to write one at the last minute which will react as best as possible to the specific circumstances.

 

[Pugwash]

Much better communication from Greater Anglia today, emails yesterday evening and late last night confirming the changes to services.

 

[jon0844]

It's nothing to do with cost, its the fact that they can't just come up with an annual 'emergency timetable' which they will then use in disruption.

Some do try. In the past, FCC has advertised a basic timetable they aim to operate during disruption (not specifically snow though) - which is a mix of trains stopping at all stations and then faster ones that start beyond WGC - rather like the normal daytime schedule, but perhaps with all trains at 8-car length even if they might normally be 4.

 

[Dave1987]

Spent 45 mins trying to couple 2 x 360's last night due to couplings being frozen. Snow and ice do affect trains.

 

[A-driver]

Spent 45 mins trying to couple 2 x 360's last night due to couplings being frozen. Snow and ice do affect trains.

My TOC had half the fleet failed this morning! I felt left out that all my units were working whilst pretty much every other driver I spoke to had had to fail something somewhere!

Infact apart from a signal failure at Biggleswade on Friday night all the disruption on my routes has been down to broken down trains-frozen doors, MA failiures, VCBs, cab heaters, compressor faults etc.

 

[jopsuk]

Drivers and Bombardier fitters spent about ten-fifteen minutes attempting to couple 379s (an eight from a service from london and a four from the depot) at Cambridge this morning. Service left about five minutes late in 8-car formation...

 

[Dave1987]

I could couple mechanically on the delner but the electrical box was frozen in the retracted position. Had to spray virtually an entire squirty bottle of kill froze on the coupler as there was a half inch thick layer of ice all over the coupler!!

 

[swt_passenger]

I agree with that but if that's the case I'm surprised STW did not run an amended timetable yesterday.

It looked to me as though on most of the routes where trains were operating on Friday and Saturday the emergency timetable was already based on the normal Sunday timetable though. In other words the Sunday timetable is already sufficiently reduced compared to the Mon - Sat service that they don't need to reduce it further.

 

[09065]

If I remember correctly SWT were trialling a heated coupler unit in the last few years; maybe this is something that can be touted across all the relevant TOCs

 

[swt_passenger]

Some do try. In the past, FCC has advertised a basic timetable they aim to operate during disruption (not specifically snow though) - which is a mix of trains stopping at all stations and then faster ones that start beyond WGC - rather like the normal daytime schedule, but perhaps with all trains at 8-car length even if they might normally be 4.

That's apparently what SWT did after the problems in 2010 - they published a few announcements back then that it was an agreed reversionary timetable drawn up with NR, to avoid re-inventing the wheel every few years.

IIRC last time this happened some of the online timetables were headed 'Snow Plan 1' or something like that, implying that there are other off the shelf reversionary timetable variants available.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I remember correctly SWT were trialling a heated coupler unit in the last few years; maybe this is something that can be touted across all the relevant TOCs

Going by the warning notices on the couplers, I think a fair number or even a majority of the SWT Desiro fleet are done now. Maybe the mod gets done during the visits to Eastleigh for the bogie exchanges.

 

[Dave1987]

I certainly wish 360 couplers were heated!

 

[jopsuk]

apparently a kettle* was employed in the attempt to get the 379s (spotted by a colleague) to couple to no avail.

*no, not a locomotive.

 

[D1009]

I agree with that but if that's the case I'm surprised STW did not run an amended timetable yesterday.

As SWT_Passenger has pointed out, the weekday snow timetable would have been prepared in advance. The Sunday timetable had already been amended for engineering work, and as there are more spare units on Sundays, it's easier to leave the plan as is, even though this has led to anomalies such as there being an hourly service between Salisbury and Exeter yesterday, but only 2 hourly today.

 

[09065]

To be honest I would imagine that all TOCs have a range of "pre-prepared" emergency timetables to cater for a range of events.

I would imagine if SWT had incidents ongoing at the same time at Surbiton and Guildford (for example) then I would imagine they have a range of emergency plans to get around all line closure in each location which they would then pair together (or butcher) to make a coherent recovery plan. Snow in each area would probably have similar responses.

 

[Dave1987]

To be honest I would imagine that all TOCs have a range of "pre-prepared" emergency timetables to cater for a range of events.

I would imagine if SWT had incidents ongoing at the same time at Surbiton and Guildford (for example) then I would imagine they have a range of emergency plans to get around all line closure in each location which they would then pair together (or butcher) to make a coherent recovery plan. Snow in each area would probably have similar responses.

Most TOC's have trains that they readily cancel or short form. They won't publicise these as the people who regularly travel on these trains would complain, and say why not cancel a different one or short form a different one. Ov course they can't see the bigger picture and are not privy to the info that the controllers have.

 

[455driver]

Spent 45 mins trying to couple 2 x 360's last night due to couplings being frozen. Snow and ice do affect trains.

45 minutes, paa thats nothing, 2 years ago it took me 90 minutes to couple 2 458s together, well me another driver and 2 fitters who were trying to de-ice the couplers including physically pushing and pulling the electrical by hand to try and get the de-icer into the sliders, 8 attempts and half a gallon of de-icer later and we were ready for the off. Took a while to get any speed up as they had been parked in the platform for 3 days ant the con rail was a bit, well frosty.

Got the ensemble to Waterloo 3 minutes before it was due out, oh and they stayed coupled which was nice.

 

[Dave1987]

45 minutes, paa thats nothing, 2 years ago it took me 90 minutes to couple 2 458s together, well me another driver and 2 fitters who were trying to de-ice the couplers including physically pushing and pulling the electrical by hand to try and get the de-icer into the sliders, 8 attempts and half a gallon of de-icer later and we were ready for the off. Took a while to get any speed up as they had been parked in the platform for 3 days ant the con rail was a bit, well frosty.

Got the ensemble to Waterloo 3 minutes before it was due out, oh and they stayed coupled which was nice.

Lol I did use about a litre of kill frost on the coupling. I have to admit the "lightning" show as the pans go under the frozen OHLE has been pretty spectacular in the dark. I phoned Siemens for help and got told the A12 was closed so I was on my own.

 

[infobleep]

It looked to me as though on most of the routes where trains were operating on Friday and Saturday the emergency timetable was already based on the normal Sunday timetable though. In other words the Sunday timetable is already sufficiently reduced compared to the Mon - Sat service that they don't need to reduce it further.

But if they had put the Sunday timetable in place today then Bookham could have had a service today.

Perhaps if we went back to pre electricity it would all be better [only joking!]

 

[CNash]

I spent a dismal hour in Charing Cross yesterday, foolishly believing the displays that claimed my services were "expected 17:58", only to find that they were instead "Cancelled" at 17:58. In the end I gave up and used a tube/bus combination, which I probably should've done from the outset...

 

[Pumbaa]

Even with the standard amended TT today, as mentioned on another thread, Virgin are currently recording a 4% PPM for today. All's well on the west coast front...!

 

[A-driver]

To be honest I would imagine that all TOCs have a range of "pre-prepared" emergency timetables to cater for a range of events.

Not always. There was a period when TOCs tried it but its not always that easy. The idea was to plan alternative rolling stock and train crew diagrams-basically what/whoever is booked to work a specific diagram will do a pre planned alternative diagram instead.

Southeastern started it (I believe it was connex at the time) and worked out that they would need something like over 100 alternatives to cover the majority of possible disruptions just to keep charing cross to London bridge running.

They then decided it wasn't worth all the time and man power they were spending on it!

Many other TOCs have taken a similar stance-certainly the companies I have worked for have no contingency plans at all and just 'wing it'. Generally if you get a train at the start of your job you stay with it going up and down until you demand they take you off for a break-but it's up to you to do that as control will happily let you keep on going all day!

 

[43074]

Even with the standard amended TT today, as mentioned on another thread, Virgin are currently recording a 4% PPM for today. All's well on the west coast front...!

I wonder how much media coverage that has received? If it were Greater Anglia or South West Trains, or any other TOC that isn't Virgin, then all of hell would have broken loose in the world of the media. :roll: