Snow Service Changes 25/02/18 onwards.

[theageofthetra]

Are any London Underground services stopping early or not running whole lines tonight? Staff shortages etc

 

[pt_mad]

Trouble is the forecasters issue the warnings and say do not travel unless it's absolutely necessary. But is work absolutely necessary and will employers agree that it may not be absolutely necessary?

Take yesterday evening in parts of Devon. Even at some stations in the red alert area, there were one or two trains showing at stations on live departures. Presumably staff would need to be there working and on the trains and yet it's a red alert saying stay at home .At what point would a TOC say we are closing stations in a red alert area as staff may end up stranded or become stranded going home, or could end up stuck with no power or heat?

 

[Dolive22]

Is there any legal scope in the UK for imposition of a curfew?

It is open to the highway authority (county council, unitary authority, TfL on some roads in Greater London, or the SoS on some roads, including motorways) to make give a notice "because of the likelihood of danger to the public" prohibiting or restricting traffic. This can make most of the provisions a normal traffic order can, and it can certainly include a prohibition of traffic, with or without exceptions, but it would ordinarily have to be signed. Arguably if you erect signs at every entry to an area to the prescribed design for a prohibition of motor vehicles, it is then validly signed, even as against people already in the area. That is probably not practicable. The SoS can authorise non-standard signage, although it might be starting to become an attempt to dispense with the statutory requirement to sign local order restrictions before they are enforceable if he authorised partial signing of an order or notice.

The police can close any road they want for up to 7 days to deal with extraordinary circumstances, by placing a sign (they have their own sign, a cross between No Entry, No Vehicles, and the Stop Works sign, with STOP POLICE on it) and can use most other prescribed traffic signs for the same purpose. Those signs are directly effective, that is to say by disobeying the restriction they communicate you commit an offence, essentially of disobeying a traffic sign (unlike an order or notice, where the charge is usually breaching the order or notice).

 

[pt_mad]

One of the senior figures in the Welsh government put out a statement yesterday afternoon instructing people in the red warning area to stay at home unless they were working for the military, emergency services, medical profession or council services. And it went out on BBC news.

Wonder how many heeded this?

Surely this was enough to shut down the railway in that part of Wales and send everyone home before evening?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Surely this was enough to shut down the railway in that part of Wales and send everyone home before evening?

Isn't that what was mainly done at least in some parts of the country?
I know arriva trains wales closed down at least the valley lines fairly early - I think the last train from Cardiff to Treherbert was 3.36pm. Not sure on other routes mind you.

 

[pacenotes]

SWR have said they will close the railway at 20:00 tonight and Southern have said they will start shutting down at 15:00.

Southeastern have said not to travel east of Ashford.

Just waiting for the GWR cancelations now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is open to the highway authority (county council, unitary authority, TfL on some roads in Greater London, or the SoS on some roads, including motorways) to make give a notice "because of the likelihood of danger to the public" prohibiting or restricting traffic. This can make most of the provisions a normal traffic order can, and it can certainly include a prohibition of traffic, with or without exceptions, but it would ordinarily have to be signed. Arguably if you erect signs at every entry to an area to the prescribed design for a prohibition of motor vehicles, it is then validly signed, even as against people already in the area. That is probably not practicable. The SoS can authorise non-standard signage, although it might be starting to become an attempt to dispense with the statutory requirement to sign local order restrictions before they are enforceable if he authorised partial signing of an order or notice.

So practically, I guess "no" then. A curfew, as often imposed in the US when big storms are coming, normally also involves a ban on pedestrians.

 

[theageofthetra]

Freezing rain falling in South London. Nothing worse for third rail.

 

[pt_mad]

Isn't that what was mainly done at least in some parts of the country?
I know arriva trains wales closed down at least the valley lines fairly early - I think the last train from Cardiff to Treherbert was 3.36pm. Not sure on other routes mind you.

Were the staff and station staff sent home?

 

[Dolive22]

So practically, I guess "no" then. A curfew, as often imposed in the US when big storms are coming, normally also involves a ban on pedestrians.

You can make traffic orders (or notices) prohibiting pedestrian traffic in some cases, this is quite possibly such a case on paper. The problem isn't that such an order is beyond the formal extent of the powers, it is more that you are building a curfew power parliament has not seen fit to provide out of other powers, and you risk a court holding it was not a proper way to exercise the powers. The SoS could authorise a traffic sign to be displayed at the chief office of a highway authority (and if you can see it from a road to which it applies, it could still be an A4 sheet in the window) for the area, and that would arguably meet the words in the act, but it would be pretty likely to be overturned on JR or collateral challenge. It would certainly be politically too risky, and would probably be politically impossible anyway.

I can make a structure whereby the power to close roads that have collapsed and close damaged bridges can be used to impose house arrest on an entire county. I can't necessarily persuade a high court judge that that way of exercising the powers was what parliament intended, nor that it was not so unreasonable an exercise of the power as to be unlawful.

 

[tsr]

Likewise an authorised person employed by (or working on behalf of) the railway can tell people not to travel if it is unsafe, and nobody is permitted to ignore that without good reason. But verifying the whole network is unsafe, and broadcasting the information to absolutely anyone affected, would be a challenge.

This afternoon’s advice not to travel on networks such as Southern is likely to come as close to this scenario as we ever see, also perhaps reflected in various other operators’ advice in recent days - although the storm which blew the roof off Crewe station a couple of winters ago resulted in VTWC advising “ALL PASSENGERS TO ABANDON TRAVEL” via their CIS and online channels, which was pretty definitive.

 

[mrmartin]

What rationale does VTWC have for not running replacement buses still? My friend has been waiting for 3 days to get back to Glasgow and is now on the Megabus which are running. I understand maybe not stopping at Lockerbie etc but the M74 is clear now?

 

[cuccir]

What rationale does VTWC have for not running replacement buses still? My friend has been waiting for 3 days to get back to Glasgow and is now on the Megabus which are running. I understand maybe not stopping at Lockerbie etc but the M74 is clear now?

Well with the network having been down for 2-3 days, it would presumably be a huge undertaking to source and staff a load of rail replacement buses. Coach drivers would have to get from home to depots, and coaches would have to get from depots to stations. Bus and coach services are still disrupted and so many will not have the spare staff or coaches to give over to rail replacement. Factor in the number of people who might want to use these too and I think it's sensible to wait overnight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well with the network having been down for 2-3 days, it would presumably be a huge undertaking to source and staff a load of rail replacement buses. Coach drivers would have to get from home to depots, and coaches would have to get from depots to stations. Bus and coach services are still disrupted and so many will not have the spare staff or coaches to give over to rail replacement. Factor in the number of people who might want to use these too and I think it's sensible to wait overnight.

And if Megabus are running, rail passengers in a hurry can book a seat on there and refund their train ticket, which would probably be a financially advantageous transaction for them in the vast majority of cases.

 

[318266]

My dad was stuck because ScotRail decided to make the PIS have no idea when the train would come - On Time, 2L, 5L, 8L, Delayed, Cancelled. All of the trains were in fact cancelled. He walked home.

 

[LeylandLen]

Does anyone know how many snow-ploughs there are for Network Rail to use? I remember older diesel locomotives working in Scotland had small permanent ploughs attached to the front ; are they still around?
Also, in my opinion, most football/rugby matches in England and Scotland that could attract large crowds should be postponed if we, the public, are being asked not to travel unless its essential.Games can be re-arranged .

 

[arb]

It's interesting to see that the only TOC listed on NRE to be running a normal service today is Great Northern. All the rest (understandably) have alterations and cancellations to their services.

They said that on Tuesday which I was really surprised at considering they go through Ely and the fens and the East of England was supposed to have it bad?

Cambridge and Ely have had remarkably little snow (so far, touch wood ). In general it's never snowed here for more than a few hours continuously, so it hasn't really built up when it has snowed. Wednesday morning was probably the worst, but main roads were running fine again by Wednesday lunchtime. I *think* the same is true heading north towards King's Lynn, but I can only base that claim on occasionally looking at weather forecasts/radars!

Head a bit further east, towards either Norwich or Bury St Edmunds, and it's a completely different story - there's been a lot more snow there.

Great Northern ran a reduced service on Tuesday (which seemed strange, given the forecasts in the area were for occasional snow showers only), and since then have been running a full service with very few apparent problems (which has seemed slightly strange for the opposite reason at times - I'd have totally understood a reduced service on Wednesday morning, for example).

 

[Steddenm]

Not sure if this has been mentioned:

https://twitter.com/firstgw_00/status/969520851099021312?s=21

Sea Wall at Dawlish damaged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't look too serious fortunately.

 

[Robertj21a]

What rationale does VTWC have for not running replacement buses still? My friend has been waiting for 3 days to get back to Glasgow and is now on the Megabus which are running. I understand maybe not stopping at Lockerbie etc but the M74 is clear now?

Perhaps they realise that buses and coaches, with drivers, aren't just sitting around waiting for a rail operator to ring up !

 

[zoneking]

The North Downs line is suspended today. Is this due to the weather?

 

[PHILIPE]

Not sure if this has been mentioned:

https://twitter.com/firstgw_00/status/969520851099021312?s=21

Sea Wall at Dawlish damaged.

There is a thread here:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/debris-on-line-at-dawlish.161425/#post-3358920

 

[PHILIPE]

The North Downs line is suspended today. Is this due to the weather?

No, not entirely. Cracked points between Wokingham and Blackwater. Closed from March 1st to 12th.

 

[tsr]

No, not entirely. Cracked points between Wokingham and Blackwater. Closed from March 1st to 12th.

Suspension is indeed partly due to weather. The combination of the two incidents means the service is too fragile to be viable, so it’s been fully suspended.

Southern may shortly suspend operations between Reigate and Redhill, and will likely not run peak services to Guildford tonight.

 

[Wirewiper]

GWR has issued notices stating the following:

- No London services beyond Exeter St David's today due to the Dawlish Sea Wall issue - trains expected to recommence some time tomorrow. No road replacement services services are operating although the no. 2 bus is now operating between Exeter and Teignmouth via Dawlish.

- Last departure from London to the North Cotswold Line will depart London Paddington at 14.22

- Last High Speed trains will depart London Paddington by 22.00

 

[AndrewE]

and on the roads http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-43254836 says:

The M62 motorway, where hundreds of snowbound drivers had to spend the night in their vehicles, will remain closed indefinitely, police say.

The army was deployed to help rescue motorists, some stuck for more than 12 hours, as winds speeds reached 90mph on the Rakewood Viaduct near Rochdale.

The motorway is shut in both directions between junctions 20 and 24 because of snow, ice and high winds.

I suspect they actually mean "until further notice."

 

[PR1Berske]

This thread is fascinating for how it moves from "There's no snow, this country is rubbish" to "it is right to be cautious in these circumstances" and back again with every page.

 

[hassaanhc]

No Heathrow Connect services as Heathrow Express have borrowed the 360s to run a half-hourly service.

 

[infobleep]

SWR have said they will close the railway at 20:00 tonight and Southern have said they will start shutting down at 15:00.

Southeastern have said not to travel east of Ashford.

Just waiting for the GWR cancelations now.

They say heavy snow and wind. Anyone know where the heavy snow will likely be. Looking at Guildford, BBC suggest lite snow. However trains run to many other places where it might be expected to be worse.

 

[gavin]

ECML north of Darlington blocked southbound not sure of the exact issue at present