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So, Sweden may well have been right.....

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talldave

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Some friends, fed up with the fact that the UK shopping experience has descended into a mire of hi-vis gestapo shouting orders at you, have nipped over to Stockholm for a break. They're enjoying the low-key Coronavirus approach (e.g. a single sign about being sensible at a shopping centre entrance) and have been told by hotel staff that there's an exceptional influx of people from the UK that they've never seen before. So they're not alone. Apparently, our handling of the "crisis" is a source of amusement to the Swedes. Good to know there are some remnants of sanity left in Europe (the continent).
 

Richard Scott

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Some friends, fed up with the fact that the UK shopping experience has descended into a mire of hi-vis gestapo shouting orders at you, have nipped over to Stockholm for a break. They're enjoying the low-key Coronavirus approach (e.g. a single sign about being sensible at a shopping centre entrance) and have been told by hotel staff that there's an exceptional influx of people from the UK that they've never seen before. So they're not alone. Apparently, our handling of the "crisis" is a source of amusement to the Swedes. Good to know there are some remnants of sanity left in Europe (the continent).
I just wish it was funny but it isn't, all this mask nonsense over here, if I could I'd be tempted to go there too, for a very long time!
 

Yew

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Here's a nice article on this, https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020...kehtu52bto8W5ZQ7KOASy6tcC37zbUeBfKXVvxINv5gqc

There is a lot more to the article, that I'd recommend you read, but here is a nice excerpt:

Sweden ripped the metaphorical band-aid off quickly and got the epidemic over and done with in a short amount of time, while the rest of the world has chosen to try to peel the band-aid off slowly. At present that means Sweden has one of the highest total death rates in the world. But covid is over in Sweden. People have gone back to their normal lives and barely anyone is getting infected any more. I am willing to bet that the countries that have shut down completely will see rates spike when they open up. If that is the case, then there won’t have been any point in shutting down in the first place, because all those countries are going to end up with the same number of dead at the end of the day anyway. Shutting down completely in order to decrease the total number of deaths only makes sense if you are willing to stay shut down until a vaccine is available. That could take years. No country is willing to wait that long.
 

AdamWW

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Hmmm.

that means virtually no-one is getting infected any more

And yet the web site here shows 427 positive tests yesterday in Sweden.

Maybe these are all false positives. But I wouldn't place much faith in an article that claims there are essentially no infections without mentioning the large number of positive tests. (Unless the web site I found is just making things up, I suppose).

The per capita infection level seems to be somewhat higher than the UK.

He also says
If that is the case, then there won’t have been any point in shutting down in the first place, because all those countries are going to end up with the same number of dead at the end of the day anyway.

So he seems to believe that we have learnt absolutely nothing about how to treat Covid-19.
 

Yew

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Hmmm.



And yet the web site here shows 427 positive tests yesterday in Sweden.

Maybe these are all false positives. But I wouldn't place much faith in an article that claims there are essentially no infections without mentioning the large number of positive tests. (Unless the web site I found is just making things up, I suppose).

The per capita infection level seems to be somewhat higher than the UK.
I think the word large is suitably subjective large. Compared to New Zealand today, it's large, compared to the numbers we would have seen if we had testing capacity at the peak, it's clearly not. However, this has happened naturally without a lockdown. If Sweden were to open up tomorrow, there would probably not be a catastrophic spike. We can't say the same of here with any certainty (though I'd be interested to see what would happen with London?)

So he seems to believe that we have learnt absolutely nothing about how to treat Covid-19.
We've made some gains, certainly, but they're not orders of magnitude improvements, and given the low numbers of cases in developed nations (Okay, apart from the US) I don't know if we'll see a whole lot more in the way of advancements in treatment.
 

talldave

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All we're doing is playing out the inevitable end result in slow motion.
 

yorkie

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And yet the web site here shows 427 positive tests yesterday in Sweden.
Yet hospitalisations are down to extremely low levels in Sweden; these positive tests are not really a big deal, as they have been going on at low levels for quite some time, mostly among the younger generations (which is starting to happen here now)

427 positive tests isn't a lot when you consider the freedoms they have.

How many people here get 'flu on an average day when we have a bad 'flu year with 30,000+ flu deaths? It will be an absolutely huge number, that's for sure! I know people like to downplay the seriousness of 'flu, but on average about 12 children die annually due to 'flu in England, so this isn't trivial. But we don't lock down for that (nor should we).
 

scarby

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As the doctor says further down in the comments:

Secondly, how much covid you find depends on how much testing you do, and the rates of testing over the course of the pandemic have varied a lot both within and between countries. This is why it makes much more sense to look at the number of deaths than the number of infections, since that statistic doesn’t vary based on how much testing you’re doing and is much harder to manipulate.

As one can see from the Sweden statistics there was a huge increase when the country made tests easy and available to everyone in June. Then, a lot of people basically said "Well I might as well have a test" - I know people who did. Now it's the holiday season people are much less likely to go for a test unless they feel ill or have some other real motivation to do so. And there are lots of other variables. I've always been baffled by people putting stall in cases since the criteria for carrying them out tends to vary so dramatically over time - they would only be of use if they were carried out akin to an opinion poll - to constantly test a randomly-selected broad cross-section of the population.
 

yorkie

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Constant tests of a random group is taking place in the UK; I know people in York who are part of it (they get paid but signed up before they knew they would get paid!).

I don't know if these studies are taking place in Sweden too, nor do I know if any of the results are being made available.
 

AdamWW

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I think the word large is suitably subjective large. Compared to New Zealand today, it's large, compared to the numbers we would have seen if we had testing capacity at the peak, it's clearly not. However, this has happened naturally without a lockdown.

I often seem to use words differently to lots of people here.

Given that, for example, the government initially instructed people not to do any non-essential travel, and there are still restrictions (e.g. advising against using any form of public transport that does not permit reservations i.e. local transport), I wouldn't say Sweden has got to where it is "naturally".

Evidence: Swedish Public Health Agency
Beginning 13 June anyone without symptoms or newly diagnosed COVID-19 is allowed to travel within Sweden. However, it is important to take the following into account:

  • If possible, travel by other means than public transportation, e.g. by bicycle or walk.
  • If you need to travel by public transport, it is preferable to choose an alternative where it is possible to book a seat in advance, e.g. train. We advise you to avoid any travel by public transport where you cannot book a seat in advance, e.g. trams, subway and local buses. If this is not possible, ensure physical distance from other people.

(Like the UK, they seem to be pretending that advising against public transport isn't actually telling people to go by car...)

Edited to add: I've rather lost track, but I think that in England the government is no longer advising people not to use public transport even if reservations aren't available - in which case that makes the guidance in Sweden stricter than here.
 
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yorksrob

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I often seem to use words differently to lots of people here.

Given that, for example, the government initially instructed people not to do any non-essential travel, and there are still restrictions (e.g. advising against using any form of public transport that does not permit reservations i.e. local transport), I wouldn't say Sweden has got to where it is "naturally".

Evidence: Swedish Public Health Agency


(Like the UK, they seem to be pretending that advising against public transport isn't actually telling people to go by car...)

Edited to add: I've rather lost track, but I think that in England the government is no longer advising people not to use public transport even if reservations aren't available - in which case that makes the guidance in Sweden stricter than here.

That is an interesting observation regarding guidance on not using public transport. Presumably the Swedes are ignoring it.
 

yorkie

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I am not convinced any of this is as extreme or clear-cut as claimed.

I'm sure @scarby can confirm what the true position is.
 

Yew

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I often seem to use words differently to lots of people here.

Given that, for example, the government initially instructed people not to do any non-essential travel, and there are still restrictions (e.g. advising against using any form of public transport that does not permit reservations i.e. local transport), I wouldn't say Sweden has got to where it is "naturally".

Evidence: Swedish Public Health Agency


(Like the UK, they seem to be pretending that advising against public transport isn't actually telling people to go by car...)

Advice to not use public transport if you can avoid is it significantly different to having taped off seats, out of use doors and compulsory masks though. You seem to be implying a form of Politicians Syllogism, "It's not exactly the same, therefore they have restrictions, and as we also have restrictions that means that we're the same"
 

AdamWW

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Advice to not use public transport if you can avoid is it significantly different to having taped off seats, out of use doors and compulsory masks though. You seem to be implying a form of Politicians Syllogism, "It's not exactly the same, therefore they have restrictions, and as we also have restrictions that means that we're the same"

Eh?

Where did I say that?
 

Greybeard33

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Advice to not use public transport if you can avoid is it significantly different to having taped off seats, out of use doors and compulsory masks though.
As I posted on another thread:
COVID sceptics often cite Sweden as their "poster child", but I see that Swedish Railways is enforcing social distancing on its trains:
As a traveller, you have the responsibility to follow the admonishments in security and order matters from the train crew. If you do not do so, you may be denied boarding or be rejected in accordance with SJ's general terms and conditions of travel. This rule also applies when crew need to provide instructions or admonishment to follow the Public Health Authority's regulations and general advice to avoid the spread of infection.
Social distancing on board
It is still important to keep the distance to your fellow travellers and we are doing our utmost to facilitate social distancing on board our trains. Therefore, we ask you to follow posted signs, only move around in the train when necessary and avoid forming a queue to the on board toilet facilities.
To create more space to be able to keep the distance and travel safer, we have now also decided to further limit the number of available seats on board our bookable trains. A number of seats will not be open for booking to ensure that the train does not get too crowded. The seat map that is available when booking our high-speed trains now easily shows which seats cannot be booked.
This does not seem very different to me.
 

Yew

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Covid Sceptics? I don't think any of us are suggesting that this is some sort of Ruse...
 

Huntergreed

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As I posted on another thread:

This does not seem very different to me.
Okay, so where’s the mandatory masks, and the nonsensical differences between each TOC? Not there?

This is a sensible precaution to take to prevent the health service from being overwhelmed. Sweden have, in my opinion, handled this perfectly, and the fact that our government are too scared to admit their mistakes and take this approach deeply annoys me.
 

Bletchleyite

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As I posted on another thread:

This does not seem very different to me.

Sweden largely seems to be doing what we are doing, they just aren't having to enforce some things because their mindset is more collectivist than ours so enforcement isn't needed, people are just doing those things anyway.
 

Grumpy Git

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Sweden largely seems to be doing what we are doing, they just aren't having to enforce some things because their mindset is more collectivist than ours so enforcement isn't needed, people are just doing those things anyway.

I totally agree. Having worked in Sweden several times, (including in the last month).

They basically aren't selfish in the slightest.

Nice to feel "normal" whilst there too. Just a odd "keep your distance" sticker on the floor, otherwise not a face mask or perspex screen in sight.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've worked in Sweden several times and including in the last month.

They basically aren't selfish.

Exactly. British people mostly are to some extent, and so will not, generally speaking, inconvenience themselves for the benefit of the wider community. Hence the difference. They socially distance voluntarily, whereas Bozza offered us that option and the outcome was for everyone to go to the pub as if he hadn't said anything, so it had to be legislated.
 

Huntergreed

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Sweden is doing what we should be doing. Taking reasonable precautions to ensure the health service is within capacity whilst also ensuring the economy and society is allowed to operate to as reasonable a level of normal as possible.

The precautions taken are based on evidence there, rather than over here, where we don’t seem to follow evidence and instead seem to be insisting on looking “safe” and taking illogical measures such as mandating masks.

I firmly believe Sweden has done the right thing and we should be following what they are doing.
 

Grumpy Git

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Exactly. British people mostly are to some extent, and so will not, generally speaking, inconvenience themselves for the benefit of the wider community. Hence the difference. They socially distance voluntarily, whereas Bozza offered us that option and the outcome was for everyone to go to the pub as if he hadn't said anything, so it had to be legislated.

To sum this up, I purposely paid extra to sit on the front row of the plane on my return flight home. I was one of the last to board only to find three of the biggest passengers on the flight taking up the row like three grizzly bears. They seemed most put out when I asked the one in my seat to move, thank God all three got the hump and moved en-masse.

The stewardesses weren't bothered where anyone sat as there was no on board service, so they basically didn't give a stuff!
 

Grumpy Git

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Sweden is doing what we should be doing. Taking reasonable precautions to ensure the health service is within capacity whilst also ensuring the economy and society is allowed to operate to as reasonable a level of normal as possible.

The precautions taken are based on evidence there, rather than over here, where we don’t seem to follow evidence and instead seem to be insisting on looking “safe” and taking illogical measures such as mandating masks.

I firmly believe Sweden has done the right thing and we should be following what they are doing.

Blame that on Boris in full "popularist' mode controlled by his unelected puppet master.

Is it any coincidence the three worst affected countries in the world are all lead by popularist leaders?
 

Yew

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Exactly. British people mostly are to some extent, and so will not, generally speaking, inconvenience themselves for the benefit of the wider community. Hence the difference. They socially distance voluntarily, whereas Bozza offered us that option and the outcome was for everyone to go to the pub as if he hadn't said anything, so it had to be legislated.
And he gave us a matter of days, a week from "wash your hands and sing happy birthday" to a forced lockdown. You can't spend a lifetime crafting the persona of a buffoon, and then be upset when people don't take you seriously
 

Grumpy Git

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And he gave us a matter of days, a week from "wash your hands and sing happy birthday" to a forced lockdown. You can't spend a lifetime crafting the persona of a buffoon, and then be upset when people don't take you seriously

....... and when he demonstrated the handwashing technique he couldn't even be bothered to get past the first syllable of "happy"
 

Yew

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Sweden largely seems to be doing what we are doing, they just aren't having to enforce some things because their mindset is more collectivist than ours so enforcement isn't needed, people are just doing those things anyway.
They don't seem to be locking down an panicking whenever R strays over 1, or imposing quarantine restrictions at a moments notice. They're going to an empirically proven approach, we're going for an experimental approach that ultimately results to "oh geez I hope we can get a vaccine real quick". I'm a Techno-Optimist, and even I think this is ambitious.
 

AdamWW

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This is a sensible precaution to take to prevent the health service from being overwhelmed. Sweden have, in my opinion, handled this perfectly, and the fact that our government are too scared to admit their mistakes and take this approach deeply annoys me.

Although reduced capacity on trains wouldn't be a sensible precaution if the article referred to above saying that the epidemic was pretty much over in Sweden now is correct, I'd have thought.

Okay, so where’s the mandatory masks, and the nonsensical differences between each TOC? Not there?

How do you conclude an absence of differences between train companies from looking at the rules for one company?
Of course Sweden doesn't have the number of operators we have.

Also:
we have now also decided to further limit the number of available seats on board our bookable trains.
suggests that at some point they made the restrictions more strict, which is interesting.

I also find it interesting that apparently the principle in Sweden was to bring in restrictions that weren't too onerous so could be lived with long term.
And that seems to have included restricted capacity on long distance trains and telling everyone to drive instead of using local trains, buses and trams...
 

DB

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I also find it interesting that apparently the principle in Sweden was to bring in restrictions that weren't too onerous so could be lived with long term.
And that seems to have included restricted capacity on long distance trains and telling everyone to drive instead of using local trains, buses and trams...

I don't know Sweden in any detail, but how important is public transport in the overall balance, particularly outside the larger cities?
 
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