Socialism vs Capitalism

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aictos, 18 Jan 2020.

  1. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    Norway for one has a huge number of government industries either wholly or partly owned:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_enterprises_of_Norway
    Some examples are:
    Argentum Venture capital
    Avinor Airport operation and airspace control
    Baneservice Maintenance of railway infrastructure
    Bjørnøen Real estate
    Central Norway Regional Health Authority Healthcare
    Eksportutvalget For Fisk Marketing
    Electronic Chart Centre - Cartography
    Enova SF 4 Petroleum and Energy Marketing
    Entra Eiendom Real estate
    Flytoget Railway company
    Gassco Natural gas pipes
    Gassnova Research
    Industrial Development Corporation of Norway Industry
    Innovation Norway Innovation
    Kompetansesenter for IT i helse- og sosialsektoren Information technology
    Kings Bay Research
    Mesta Road construction and maintenance
    Nationaltheatret Theater
    Nofima Research
    Norfund Investments in developing countries
    Norsk Eiendomsinformasjon Real estate database
    Norsk Tipping Lotteries and gambling
    Northern Norway Regional Health Authority Healthcare services
    Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation Television and radio channels
    Norwegian Social Science Data Services Research
    Norwegian State Housing Bank Banking
    Petoro AS Manages the State's Direct Financial Interest in the petroleum industry
    Posten Norge Postal services
    Rehabil Manufacturing
    Secora Maintenance of coastal infrastructure
    Southern and Eastern Norway Regional Health Authority Healthcare services
    Statkraft Electricity production
    Statnett Electricity lines
    Statskog Forestry and real estate
    Staur Farm Farm
    UNINETT Telecommunications
    University Centre in Svalbard Research
    Venturefondet Venture capital
    Vinmonopolet Retailing of alcoholic beverages
    Vy Railway company
    Western Norway Regional Health Authority Healthcare services
     
  2. Meerkat

    Meerkat Established Member

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    That is a meaningless list.
    Are they big industries, are they monopolies, why are they state companies?
    Did they ideologically nationalise the big industries?
     
  3. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    I would rather put my savings on a bonfire than allow the state to choose what it is spent on.
     
  4. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    Why don't you do some reading and find out?
     
  5. Meerkat

    Meerkat Established Member

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    I had a quick look and there was no answer
     
  6. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    You could always reply. I mean, it’s not like you just went on Wikipedia and looked at a list of Norwegian state-owned companies and posted them like it made any sort of point without understanding the context, is it?

    I mean, while we’re posting Wikipedia articles, here’s the list of British state-owned enterprises which is just as extensive: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-owned_enterprises_of_the_United_Kingdom

    ...but without any wider context, there is no point in posting it.
     
  7. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    I wasn't arguing a point about nationalised industries one way or another. It was a simple statement that Norway has a lot of them.
     
  8. EM2

    EM2 Established Member

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    Although seeing as trust in Government was mentioned, the OECD research has Norway 5th, Finland 12th, Sweden 13th, and Denmark 14th.
     
  9. SteveP29

    SteveP29 Member

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    Then why, if it's a safety net, do this current government and it's predecessors after 2010 make you jump through hoops to get it?
    If you've worked and contributed, why do you have to almost fight for it?
    Do you honestly think you could sit at a computer for 35 hours a week looking for a job?
    Have you ever tried or done that?
    Do you know how quickly you exhaust all avenues?
    That's before you even suggest going round shops and offices dropping in CV's and suchlike, the employment world works so much differently now, companies don't just take people on on a whim, because they've dropped a CV at their door, if companies need staff, they will advertise for them, if not, they won't.

    Why have you bought the line from the sh*trags that all unemployed people have 60" TV's and brand new smartphones etc?
    Who, in your personal experience, have you seen, that doesn't work, that has them?
    How many houses have you been into, where the people living there are unemployed and have a huge TV?
    How many of those people who are unemployed already had that TV, or made the purchase with a redundancy payment?
    My parents bought a range of household goods that were previously rented (TV and Video Recorder), knackered (Twin Tub and Cooker) with their redundancy payoffs when Caterpillar in Birtley was closed down in 1984, far better to have those things then, to save having to buy them on HP or Finance at those ridiculous 80's interest rates, who's to say that the very same people you're assuming bought 60" TV's etc with dole money didn't do the same?
     
  10. 60019

    60019 Member

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    1945? Subsequent governments were more socialist than Labour's last two manifestos, but that was the last time a government won election on the promise of increasing nationalisation and then did it. In 1997 Labour promised no new privatisation and to undo rail privatisation, but they lied, so you could count that either way, but that was even more minuscule baby steps back towards even as much socialism as in 1960 than 2019.

    His objections to the EU went beyond free movement of labour, and went right back to the basic principles of the single market: it is based on internal liberalisation, and while there's lots of ways to delay or dodge it the rules are designed (thanks, in no small part, to HMG's contributions) to ratchet and the Commission is quite good at enforcing that. Just think back to his 2017 manifesto: an awful lot of the main policies (and all the ones which in isolation had over 50% support) were pointless, forbidden, or unnecessarily expensive thanks to EU rules or other trade liberalisation treaties. The EU is happy with state owned companies provided they act in the market at arm's length from the state, but it doesn't like integrated monopolies or monoliths acting as part of the civil service in things it thinks should be part of the competitive market, which makes a lot of his proposed renationalisations pointless if we remained part of the Single Market. That made a Remain platform implausible, hypocritical, and even less popular than it might have been under a more centrist leader.

    At the same time, Labour also depends on people who either support the European Project in principle or derive clear direct personal benefit from the EU in its present form, and many labour supporters regard the EU as a way of slowing down future liberalisation rather than locking in what already exists (because they assume there's no real probability of undoing it, or don't really want to), and even after the much talked-about momentum purges the majority of the parliamentary party was numbered among them and were unenthusiastic about the socialist bits of the manifesto. That made a Leave platform impossible.

    Having a lifetime income tax would be a neat solution, then inheritance, gifts, capital gains, etc. can be all treated the same as income. The problem is that immigrants and (especially) emigrants would both benefit from that compared to lifelong residents.

    I do agree about the problems with skimping on funding for children: lousy schools and poor parenting effectively waste the potential of a substantial chunk of all children, a problem exacerbated by a shortage of training places for essential occupations. That makes immigration necessary, but they have children, and a percentage of them end up under-utilised too, so you have more people needing more immigrants, who have more children…
     

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