Solution to the toilets on trains issue

[Greenback]

I think however well they design the interior if the train is built for shorter distances it doesn't make it really suitable to run a long distance service. For example, the ATW 150s have interiors similar to the refurbished 156s but that doesn't make them suitable for Manchester to South Wales or South Wales to North Wales services.

You are right, I would not want to endure a South-North Wales journey on a 150! But at least they have toilets!

 

[Flamingo]

London tube trains don't have toilets - and indeed, except at the tube stations that are also main-line rail stations I don't remember seeing toilets on stations (sits back and waits to be corrected...)

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Probably not, as they are staff only, and usually in staff-only areas.

The problem with ordering stock without toilets is there is no interoperability if you need to put it on a longer working. I'm sure it would be quite feasible to not have toilets on journeys 15 minutes in duration, but what happens if you need to substitute that stock onto a journey taking an hour?

At the same time, you need to think about franchise changes, and cascades.

I normally find most station toilets to be perfectly acceptable, although a 10p charge is more than enough.

Why should i pay 10p to spend a penny?

 

[142094]

Why should i pay 10p to spend a penny?

In an ideal world you wouldn't have to, but I'd rather spend 10p compared to either holding it in or trying somewhere else to have a pee. I've no complaints about the fact that toilets either need an attendant or someone to clean and maintain them, which is why I'm willing to pay a fee. I do object to toilet prices being 20-30p just to make a profit.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree. Unfortunately, with the expense of adding toilets and the reduction in capacity, I think it something we are more likely to see in suburban areas in the future.

Indeed. Sadly this seems to be the way of things !
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I think however well they design the interior if the train is built for shorter distances it doesn't make it really suitable to run a long distance service. For example, the ATW 150s have interiors similar to the refurbished 156s but that doesn't make them suitable for Manchester to South Wales or South Wales to North Wales services.

That depends on what you class as a shorter service. For example, 150's regularly turn up on Leeds - Sheffield stoppers. However, someone suffering from a weak bladder or irratable bowel might not consider the journey (which is over an hour) to be short in terms of toilet requirements

 

[pemma]

For example, 150's regularly turn up on Leeds - Sheffield stoppers.

When Northern took over 150s were the primary traction on Buxton to Blackpool services, which was around a 3 hour service and if you were travelling between Buxton and Blackpool it was the fastest option, despite having a lot of stops.

 

[yorksrob]

When Northern took over 150s were the primary traction on Buxton to Blackpool services, which was around a 3 hour service and if you were travelling between Buxton and Blackpool it was the fastest option, despite having a lot of stops.

Quite. For that sort of a journey, you would expect the majority of people to be travelling towards the centre at Manchester, therefore a 150 style of train isn't unreasonable. However, you could still reasonably expect some people to be travelling near enough end to end, therefore a toilet is essential.

 

[tsr]

London tube trains don't have toilets - and indeed, except at the tube stations that are also main-line rail stations I don't remember seeing toilets on stations (sits back and waits to be corrected...)

There are plenty of tube stations - not just mainline interchanges - with toilets. A good number of them are outside the centre of London.

Have a look at this map: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/toilets-map.pdf

This is due to the fact that journey times to places such as (to quote the extreme example) Amersham can be quite long enough to need a convenient loo at the end... or even during the journey.

Tube station toilets vary. Some are reasonably pleasant, but some are not so nice.

 

[Flamingo]

Fair enough, I'm usually zone 1 only these days.

 

[WestCoast]

Why should i pay 10p to spend a penny?

I don't object to paying a token amount for a clean, well-maintained toilet that is provided for the general public's convenience.

In fact, although a lot of people moan about a lack of toilets in Britain, compared to the continent I tend to notice far more toilets in the UK. I have also paid up to 80p to use the toilet at Paris Nord - although it was very nice with swiveling toilet seat and free mint imperials!

 

[pemma]

Quite. For that sort of a journey, you would expect the majority of people to be travelling towards the centre at Manchester, therefore a 150 style of train isn't unreasonable. However, you could still reasonably expect some people to be travelling near enough end to end, therefore a toilet is essential.

Due to the former Buxton-Blackpool service calling at Stockport with a 5 minute connection time it meant journey planners frequently suggested passengers for Bolton/Preston/Blackpool who had to change in the Manchester area, should do so at Stockport opposed to changing to the faster service at Piccadilly.

The problem with this route was that Northern put the ATN 150s in to a pool with the refurbished FNW 150s and the ATN 150s were in an awful internal state and should have been kept on shorter services until they were refreshed/refurbished.

 

[Bellwater]

Grimsby to Lincoln is an hour's journey time with an hourly frequency.

No it isn't. Its twice hourly if that.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

There are plenty of tube stations - not just mainline interchanges - with toilets. A good number of them are outside the centre of London.

Have a look at this map: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/toilets-map.pdf

This is due to the fact that journey times to places such as (to quote the extreme example) Amersham can be quite long enough to need a convenient loo at the end... or even during the journey.

Tube station toilets vary. Some are reasonably pleasant, but some are not so nice.

There are also some which are downright dangerous. Station supervisors used to keep them locked pretty much all the time at Kilburn along with the waiting rooms and still junkies would break in to shoot up in them.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Usually when I have to pay to get into the toilets, mainly at Manchester Piccadilly and sometimes London Euston/Waterloo, I use the old trick of "wait until nobody looks and dive through" and I've seen it used so many times myself so I wonder why people charge? I'd be in favor for at rail only stations, there needs to be a TVM and ticket-only toilets. That would surely work, as it has been stated and backed up earlier.
If not, just have a guard on standby for the toilets and put them nearer to the barriers where feasible so if something goes down, a member of staff would be able to get in there fast. (This would be fantastic on Arsenal days down at Finsbury Park)

 

[Urban Gateline]

Usually when I have to pay to get into the toilets, mainly at Manchester Piccadilly and sometimes London Euston/Waterloo, I use the old trick of "wait until nobody looks and dive through" and I've seen it used so many times myself so I wonder why people charge? I'd be in favor for at rail only stations, there needs to be a TVM and ticket-only toilets. That would surely work, as it has been stated and backed up earlier.
If not, just have a guard on standby for the toilets and put them nearer to the barriers where feasible so if something goes down, a member of staff would be able to get in there fast. (This would be fantastic on Arsenal days down at Finsbury Park)

The Toilets at Clapham Junction station have an unmanned barrier which is often sidestepped by those who know and regularly avoid the charges! An easy target, but sometimes I take pleasure in stopping those who enter without paying and shaming them, it helps when the ticket barriers I work at are just next to the toilets!

 

[infobleep]

As someone who has a medical condition, requiring seated access to toilets, usually about 10 times a day, I try to avoid travelling long distances on trains without loos.

Thus I wouldn't wish to have to travel to clapham junction during peak push hour from Guildford regularly because the trains used have no loos. However I don't mind going to Harrow and Wealdstone via Wiesden Junction because I know there are loos at Willesden Junction.

As for paying, I have a RADAR, which gives me access to the disabled loos. Generally these are cleaner and are free. Why they son't charge us I don't know.

As for the trains. I find he worst Line for sink taps not working is the South Croydon to Milton Keynes Southern services.

I remembered reading that South West Trains wanted to shorten there office open hours at some stations. At the same time they announced the loos would also close for longer. This apparently was so that the loos would continue to be accessible to passengers. However they can't access them if they are closed! There are some unmanned train stations with old buildings that I suspect still have loos closed off.

In Germany it is the norm to pay for loo access and in Rome it is normal for their to be no loo seat. That I'm mot keen on as I often need to sit down.

 

[johnnychips]

.

In Germany it is the norm to pay for loo access and in Rome it is normal for their to be no loo seat. That I'm mot keen on as I often need to sit down.

In France and Switzerland thirty years ago they used to have those 'hole-in-one' toilets at stations where you squatted on two raised blocks in a thing like a shower base with a hole between and a bit behind your legs. They were disgusting as people frequently were off target. I assume things are better in those countries now. However, apropos Infobleep's Rome comment, they still had those types of toilet in the Vatican three years ago. But they were quite clean; I suppose when you're thinking, 'oh God, I really need to go', He helps you take aim in such a spiritual place.

 

[Urban Gateline]

It would be seen as very bad by society if RADAR key holders were charged to use the disabled loos I think, hence no charges for them at present!

What annoys me though is that people without disabilities or any need to use the disabled loos, get hold of RADAR keys through the black market and take advantage of using the disabled loos when they should be paying for and using the standard toilets.

As for loos being operational for less hours, it is a must, otherwise they would get trashed most likely if unsupervised, which would be more effort than it's worth so it makes sense to only open them when staff are present.

 

[pemma]

No it isn't. Its twice hourly if that.

Already mentioned in the two posts directly under the one you quoted.

 

[yorksrob]

It would be seen as very bad by society if RADAR key holders were charged to use the disabled loos I think, hence no charges for them at present!

What annoys me though is that people without disabilities or any need to use the disabled loos, get hold of RADAR keys through the black market and take advantage of using the disabled loos when they should be paying for and using the standard toilets.

As for loos being operational for less hours, it is a must, otherwise they would get trashed most likely if unsupervised, which would be more effort than it's worth so it makes sense to only open them when staff are present.

Unfortunately, they're likely to be non operational at just the times I'm likely to need them which defeats the objects. The only solution I can see is to make sure new trains have toilets.

 

[Bellwater]

Already mentioned in the two posts directly under the one you quoted.

Just reminding you.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Reading posts above about 150s, they have toilets don't they? I fail to see why it is mentioned that such-and-such a service is/was 150 run.

 

[pemma]

Reading posts above about 150s, they have toilets don't they? I fail to see why it is mentioned that such-and-such a service is/was 150 run.

They're mentioned because someone said in an earlier post about designing a train interior to allow it be to used as back up on longer distance services as well as on shorter services - which is what the 150s were intended to do.
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In Germany it is the norm to pay for loo access and in Rome it is normal for their to be no loo seat.

It's also common for loos to be manned, opposed to having barriers that you feed coins in to, so having correct change isn't an issue and it means they can be alerted straight away if there is a problem with the toilet.

 

[Flying Snail]

It would be seen as very bad by society if RADAR key holders were charged to use the disabled loos I think, hence no charges for them at present!

What annoys me though is that people without disabilities or any need to use the disabled loos, get hold of RADAR keys through the black market and take advantage of using the disabled loos when they should be paying for and using the standard toilets.

No black market required, there is no restriction on who the keys can be sold to.

http://radar-shop.org.uk/Detail.aspx?id=0

 

[Clip]

There are plenty of tube stations - not just mainline interchanges - with toilets. A good number of them are outside the centre of London.

Have a look at this map: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/toilets-map.pdf

This is due to the fact that journey times to places such as (to quote the extreme example) Amersham can be quite long enough to need a convenient loo at the end... or even during the journey.

Tube station toilets vary. Some are reasonably pleasant, but some are not so nice.

Has Kings Cross St Pancras got new ones then? I seem to remember they got shut permanently after the fire in the 80s.

 

[Deerfold]

Has Kings Cross St Pancras got new ones then? I seem to remember they got shut permanently after the fire in the 80s.

As the map indicates they're outside the ticket gateline and not managed by London Underground I assume they refer to the ones at the Mainline stations.

EDIT: this is actually stated on the second page. Oddly they direct you to the pay toilets in Kings Cross rather than the free ones in St Pancras.

 

[tsr]

Oddly they direct you to the pay toilets in Kings Cross rather than the free ones in St Pancras.

I noticed that, and I didn't find it odd at all... just another money-making agreement, probably!

 

[island]

It is an interesting discussion, Cockfoster's to Heathrow on the tube has the same problem and to be honest I don't know which tube stations have toilets barrier side (maybe they all do).

There's a map somewhere which shows toilet facilities at tube stations.
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In an ideal world you wouldn't have to, but I'd rather spend 10p compared to either holding it in or trying somewhere else to have a pee. I've no complaints about the fact that toilets either need an attendant or someone to clean and maintain them, which is why I'm willing to pay a fee. I do object to toilet prices being 20-30p just to make a profit.

I was at a German station once where the cost was €0.60. I think it was Düsseldorf-Hbf.

 

[Deerfold]

There's a map somewhere which shows toilet facilities at tube stations.

That'd be the one linked to in post #38 (and quoted in #55) which we've just been discussing

 

[whhistle]

At all stations:
- Announcements regarding the availability of wheelchair-accessible and non-accessible toilets on every train - ideally in a similar manner to catering announcements and First Class announcements (perhaps a standard format of visual information on matrix displays such as "Accessible toilets: Yes; Other toilets: No; Catering: Buffet Car; First Class: Coach 1" could be adopted, and audible announcement might, for example, be "Buffet Car catering is available on this train. First Class accommodation is in Coach 1. Toilets are available and are all accessible for wheelchair users.")

Too many announcements at stations telling us pointless information already.
There is nothing wrong with the above but for 95% of people, it's useless.