Some potential Cross-Country Routes

[Bartsimho]

Just been thinking about some potential Cross Country routes as the actual XC franchise is shrinking more and more to supress demand it seems.

There should be profitable routes available and if there is any will to have a city other than London be an economic centre these should be vital links.

Liverpool Lime Street/Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham New Street-Worcester Shrub Hill-Cheltenham Spa-Bristol Parkway-Newport-Cardiff Central (Mostly under wires but Bi-Modes needed I think 801/2's are Bi-Mode. 2tph with 1 to Liverpool and 1 to Manchester)

Swansea-Cardiff Central-Newport-Bristol Parkway-Cheltenham Spa-Birmingham New Street-Derby-Sheffield-Wakefield Westgate-Leeds (Pure Diesels here as there are barely any wires yet)

Brighton-Chichester-Havant-Southampton Central-Salisbury-Bath Spa-Bristol-Newport-Cardiff Central (I've previously created a thread about this and the issue was pathing on the West Coastway).

I could only see routes with more than 1 change or completely out there timings.

I know TFW runs a Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central service but it runs on the slower Shrewsbury to Hereford and Newport and I felt that a service hitting the larger population centres on faster lines might be popular still.

 

[RailWonderer]

The chance of any of these happening in this climate is nil. Since we're in speculative, I'll carry on. The main portions of most of those routes are already served by other operators so you have the question of avaialble paths to double up services for much of the journey length and then the demand for a service increase on these routes.

XC also aren't getting any more stock besides possibly ex-Avanti Voyagers and they need those to double up existing services. Then there isn't the political will. Most of XC is a legacy of the BR era where long through services provided by loco hauled rakes of coaches formed the backbone of the UK's long distance network, where XC is tied to long held expectations that these long though services are handy for an important few. Many other ToCs abandoned the long through services they inherited or introduced years ago so the momentum if anything is going the opposite way. They don't want to be introducing more long routes where reliability and punctuality falls and where pathing is tight.

The only possibility is if leisure travel grows and a new GBR strategy for XC surfaces and addresses it with added long routes but until then XC appears to be an operation without a plan in place for it but to continue the status quo.

 

[hexagon789]

I'd like to see the original Princess plan.

Not the toned down infamous version that was introduced in September 2002 and which failed because it attracted too much new demand and because the infrastructure improvements necessary to implement weren't all carried out.

I'd probably drop the original VT0 route as unnecessary, but the other four (possibly with a few tweaks).

I still consider that the basic premise was sound, the full planned timetable would've been excellent - it was let down by poor implementation.

Cut backs on infrastructure improvements meant many routes had late/early services curtailed, the full hourly Poole service was not introduced, the full accelerations weren't implemented and failing to match stock capacity to demand of course led to the infamous overcrowding.

If the entire infrastructure programme was implemented and higher capacity new stock ordered, I think a new Princess could be offered; it might be easier now the ECML and WCML are on clockface timetables now which they weren't back in 2002.

 

[JKF]

NW-SW used to be a popular summer service, like Liverpool-Paignton & Manchester-Penzance. Any reason those stopped, and when did they? Used to involve a loco change at New St, which was not to complicated as the service reversed there.

Hopefully there might be some long distance services on east-west rail, South Wales or Bristol to Cambridge/Norfolk. Could be XC or some other operator.

 

[The Planner]

Brighton bingo!

 

[Neptune]

Brighton bingo!

I opened this thread expecting to see Liverpool & Brighton…... Always seems to come around even after a few months without mention.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I opened this thread expecting to see Liverpool & Brighton…... Always seems to come around even after a few months without mention.

Must be a considerable amount of untapped demand!

 

[mister-sparky]

I'd like to see the original Princess plan.

Not the toned down infamous version that was introduced in September 2002 and which failed because it attracted too much new demand and because the infrastructure improvements necessary to implement weren't all carried out.

I'd probably drop the original VT0 route as unnecessary, but the other four (possibly with a few tweaks).

I still consider that the basic premise was sound, the full planned timetable would've been excellent - it was let down by poor implementation.

Cut backs on infrastructure improvements meant many routes had late/early services curtailed, the full hourly Poole service was not introduced, the full accelerations weren't implemented and failing to match stock capacity to demand of course led to the infamous overcrowding.

If the entire infrastructure programme was implemented and higher capacity new stock ordered, I think a new Princess could be offered; it might be easier now the ECML and WCML are on clockface timetables now which they weren't back in 2002.

What was the full original operation princess plan??

 

[JonathanH]

What was the full original operation princess plan??

'Operation Princess' - what was the intended timetable?

There are plenty of threads which explore what went wrong and I don't want that to be regurgitated here. Neither am I wanting people to hanker about their favourite destinations. However, I am interested in understanding the Winter 2002 timetable and whether it could ever have been sustainable...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[MattRat]

Overcrowding would have to be dealt with first before thinking about new routes, since you don't want to stretch the current fleet (remembering the HSTs are going) any further. In fact quite the opposite.

They'd either need Avanti 221s, or a replacement fleet like the 805s with possibly some extra, bearing in mind 805s would have innate extra capacity and require less doubling, before they should consider more routes.

 

[hexagon789]

What was the full original operation princess plan??

The originally planned routes?

'Operation Princess' - what was the intended timetable?

There are plenty of threads which explore what went wrong and I don't want that to be regurgitated here. Neither am I wanting people to hanker about their favourite destinations. However, I am interested in understanding the Winter 2002 timetable and whether it could ever have been sustainable...

www.railforums.co.uk

That's more the September 2002 timetable offering, the original plan was slightly different to what VXC was actually able to offer as Railtrack failed to deliver all the necessary infrastructure improvements in time.

 

[JonathanH]

That's more the September 2002 timetable offering, the original plan was slightly different to what VXC was actually able to offer as Railtrack failed to deliver all the necessary infrastructure improvements in time.

Yes.

Is it clear what was in the original plan beyond the underlying plan to the September 2002 timetable?

Hour 1 through Birmingham
Liverpool to Portsmouth
Edinburgh (East Coast) to Paignton
Manchester to Birmingham
Newcastle to Bournemouth
Scotland (West Coast) to Plymouth

Hour 2 through Birmingham
Manchester to Brighton
Dundee (East Coast) to Cardiff
Scotland (via Manchester) to Bournemouth
Blackpool North to Birmingham International
Newcastle to Plymouth

 

[Mzzzs]

my proposal would be to take the Birmingham New Street to Nottingham service and extend it further and have it run by a voyager.
Cleethorpes to the southwest maybe Guildford or Portsmouth.
Stops:
Cleethorpes
Grimsby Town
Lincoln
Newark Castle
Nottingham
Derby
Burton-on-Trent
Tamworth
Birmingham New Street
Then further south.

 

[6Gman]

Just been thinking about some potential Cross Country routes as the actual XC franchise is shrinking more and more to supress demand it seems.

There should be profitable routes available and if there is any will to have a city other than London be an economic centre these should be vital links.

Liverpool Lime Street/Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham New Street-Worcester Shrub Hill-Cheltenham Spa-Bristol Parkway-Newport-Cardiff Central (Mostly under wires but Bi-Modes needed I think 801/2's are Bi-Mode. 2tph with 1 to Liverpool and 1 to Manchester)

Swansea-Cardiff Central-Newport-Bristol Parkway-Cheltenham Spa-Birmingham New Street-Derby-Sheffield-Wakefield Westgate-Leeds (Pure Diesels here as there are barely any wires yet)

Brighton-Chichester-Havant-Southampton Central-Salisbury-Bath Spa-Bristol-Newport-Cardiff Central (I've previously created a thread about this and the issue was pathing on the West Coastway).

I could only see routes with more than 1 change or completely out there timings.

I know TFW runs a Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central service but it runs on the slower Shrewsbury to Hereford and Newport and I felt that a service hitting the larger population centres on faster lines might be popular still.

Sorry, are you suggesting 5 inter-city trains per hour between Gloucester and Birmingham?

If so, how do you fit everything in?

 

[The Planner]

my proposal would be to take the Birmingham New Street to Nottingham service and extend it further and have it run by a voyager.
Cleethorpes to the southwest maybe Guildford or Portsmouth.
Stops:
Cleethorpes
Grimsby Town
Lincoln
Newark Castle
Nottingham
Derby
Burton-on-Trent
Tamworth
Birmingham New Street
Then further south.

Portsmouth bingo!

 

[Mzzzs]

Portsmouth bingo!

Well then here is the proposal I think its dependent on CX taking on ex advanti voyagers.
Take the Birmingham New Street to Nottingham service and extend it further and have it run by a voyager.
Cleethorpes to the Portsmouth.
Stops:
Cleethorpes
Grimsby Town
Lincoln
Newark Castle
Nottingham
Derby
Burton-on-Trent
Tamworth
Birmingham New Street
Coventry
Leamington Spa
Banbury
Oxford
Reading
Basingstoke
Eastleigh
Portsmouth & Southsea
Portsmouth Harbour

potential to extend to Brighton.

 

[The Planner]

Well then here is the proposal I think its dependent on CX taking on ex advanti voyagers.
Take the Birmingham New Street to Nottingham service and extend it further and have it run by a voyager.
Cleethorpes to the Portsmouth.
Stops:
Cleethorpes
Grimsby Town
Lincoln
Newark Castle
Nottingham
Derby
Burton-on-Trent
Tamworth
Birmingham New Street
Coventry
Leamington Spa
Banbury
Oxford
Reading
Basingstoke
Eastleigh
Portsmouth & Southsea
Portsmouth Harbour

potential to extend to Brighton.

Why?

 

[Mzzzs]

Why?

Could offer enhanced connectivity, time and cost savings, environmental benefits, economic development, and improved accessibility for the people along the route.

 

[rapmastaj]

Bristol - Norwich once EWR is built.

Would finally give decent links from the SW to Oxford.

 

[hexagon789]

Is it clear what was in the original plan beyond the underlying plan to the September 2002 timetable?

Hour 1 through Birmingham
Liverpool to Portsmouth
Edinburgh (East Coast) to Paignton
Manchester to Birmingham
Newcastle to Bournemouth
Scotland (West Coast) to Plymouth

Hour 2 through Birmingham
Manchester to Brighton
Dundee (East Coast) to Cardiff
Scotland (via Manchester) to Bournemouth
Blackpool North to Birmingham International
Newcastle to Plymouth

Fairly clear, I need to look at it again to be sure of the exact details, which I'll then relay here, but they switched the end/origin points on two routes with each other with the original plan vs September 2002 for one thing.

 

[sprinterguy]

NW-SW used to be a popular summer service, like Liverpool-Paignton & Manchester-Penzance. Any reason those stopped, and when did they? Used to involve a loco change at New St, which was not to complicated as the service reversed there.

Hopefully there might be some long distance services on east-west rail, South Wales or Bristol to Cambridge/Norfolk. Could be XC or some other operator.

Manchester - South West services were curtailed in June 2020 in response to lower passenger demand during the pandemic. Hourly Bristol trains will return in May, though I don't know what's become of the pre-pandemic plan to extend some of those services to Exeter.

Most Manchester - South West services no longer reverse at New Street during Arriva's tenure, instead continuing south via the Camp Hill line, though the reversal was operationally convenient for loco changes back in the day as you say (Passenger services using electric power for portions of the journey under the wires? What a novel idea! ).

Liverpool was removed from the (at the time Virgin) Crosscountry network in Winter 2003 as part of the consolidation of services that arose in response to the frequent overcrowding following introduction of the Operation Princess timetable in 2002, as well as concentrating Birmingham - Liverpool services with the West Coast regional operator.

 

[The Planner]

Could offer enhanced connectivity, time and cost savings, environmental benefits, economic development, and improved accessibility for the people along the route.

What does it allow that cannot normally be done with a single change now? We arent in a world where trains go everywhere from everywhere.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Brighton-Chichester-Havant-Southampton Central-Salisbury-Bath Spa-Bristol-Newport-Cardiff Central (I've previously created a thread about this and the issue was pathing on the West Coastway).

The old twice a day Regional Railways/Alphaline/Wales and West (IIRC) 2-car 158 route...used it many many times back in the 90s.

 

[RobShipway]

The chance of any of these happening in this climate is nil. Since we're in speculative, I'll carry on. The main portions of most of those routes are already served by other operators so you have the question of avaialble paths to double up services for much of the journey length and then the demand for a service increase on these routes.

XC also aren't getting any more stock besides possibly ex-Avanti Voyagers and they need those to double up existing services. Then there isn't the political will. Most of XC is a legacy of the BR era where long through services provided by loco hauled rakes of coaches formed the backbone of the UK's long distance network, where XC is tied to long held expectations that these long though services are handy for an important few. Many other ToCs abandoned the long through services they inherited or introduced years ago so the momentum if anything is going the opposite way. They don't want to be introducing more long routes where reliability and punctuality falls and where pathing is tight.

The only possibility is if leisure travel grows and a new GBR strategy for XC surfaces and addresses it with added long routes but until then XC appears to be an operation without a plan in place for it but to continue the status quo.

Well then here is the proposal I think its dependent on CX taking on ex advanti voyagers.
Take the Birmingham New Street to Nottingham service and extend it further and have it run by a voyager.
Cleethorpes to the Portsmouth.
Stops:
Cleethorpes
Grimsby Town
Lincoln
Newark Castle
Nottingham
Derby
Burton-on-Trent
Tamworth
Birmingham New Street
Coventry
Leamington Spa
Banbury
Oxford
Reading
Basingstoke
Eastleigh
Portsmouth & Southsea
Portsmouth Harbour

potential to extend to Brighton.

You do not have the paths to Brighton, whether it is coming westwards from Chichester, Guildford to Redhill or via Kesnington Olympia - East Croydon to Brighton. This is why XC cancelled the services to Brighton many years ago now. You would have to have less either Gatwick Express or Thameslink services into or out of Brighton to enable there to be even one XC service a day into Brighton.

You also have to remember that some of the line I believe if my memory is correct between Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes is single track. So, that then lessons the number of trains that either Trans Penine Express or East Midlans Trains can terminate or start from Cleethorpes. The only extra service I see running from Cleethorpes would be direct LNER service to London King's Cross as per https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2023/02...-of-direct-cleethorpes-to-london-train-route/. This would be using 5 car class 800 Azuma's. But this is something that has supposedly been planned by LNER since 2021. There is a campaign page about this issue https://www.facebook.com/LNERKingsXGYCleeCampaign/ I believe the idea was to have one train a day leaving Cleethorpes at 06:24 with arrival into London Kings Cross at 09:25.

I also cannot see the need for a Cleethorpes to Portsmouth service being run with a Voyager, when local MP's are struggling with a service to London! If a Cleethorpes to Portsmouth service was to happen, I think it would more likely be run using either a two or three car class 170 or 175 unit. I can see potential though for a Birmingham - Portsmouth Harbour service. However, I would have it leave Birmingham New Street, then go on to Birmingham International, Coventry, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Fareham, Portsmouth & Southsea and then Portsmouth Harbour. But you would probably face the situation where this would have to replace a service to Reading from Manchester, if there is a path on from Reading.

 

[paul1609]

You do not have the paths to Brighton, whether it is coming westwards from Chichester,

I think with the withdrawal of the GWR Brighton trains, the Brighton to West Worthing service and the reduction of London to Portsmouth direct services there almost certainly paths from Chichester now.

 

[irish_rail]

Must be a considerable amount of untapped demand!

Liverpool must be the biggest city in UK (outside London of course) not on XC network. Its a huge place and most definitely does warrant inclusion on the XC network. Whether or not it ever will be again is up for debate, but it isn't in the same league as Portsmouth , Brighton , Hull etc in terms of need to be on XC route.

 

[JonathanH]

I think with the withdrawal of the GWR Brighton trains, the Brighton to West Worthing service and the reduction of London to Portsmouth direct services there almost certainly paths from Chichester now.

The fact that the Brighton to Portsmouth and Brighton to Southampton services pick up the stops which the West Worthing services used to serve suggests that any longer distance train out of Brighton running along the two track Coastway route would soon catch it up.

 

[miklcct]

I think with the withdrawal of the GWR Brighton trains, the Brighton to West Worthing service and the reduction of London to Portsmouth direct services there almost certainly paths from Chichester now.

If there are paths available the priority will be restoring those Southern coastway services as they are frequently overcrowded, and to form a possible Sussex metro.

There is no place for intercity trains to access Brighton unless the route is quadrupled.

 

[paul1609]

The fact that the Brighton to Portsmouth and Brighton to Southampton services pick up the stops which the West Worthing services used to serve suggests that any longer distance train out of Brighton running along the two track Coastway route would soon catch it up.

Of course the fact that both previously semi fast services are stopping every station to West Worthing bar one means that the semi fast paths are now available.

If there are paths available the priority will be restoring those Southern coastway services as they are frequently overcrowded, and to form a possible Sussex metro.

There is no place for intercity trains to access Brighton unless the route is quadrupled.

Unless someone orders ñew stock to replace the 313s those services are gone for good. I often use a peak Brighton to Southampton service it's full but I wouldn't describe it as overcrowded. What's putting people off the cross country service is the use of semi derelict, short formed trains of 165/6 stock.

 

[JonathanH]

Of course the fact that both previously semi fast services are stopping every station to West Worthing bar one means that the semi fast paths are now available.

It isn't just paths out of Brighton that are the issue. Any extra train on the route also needs to find a gap at Arundel Junction, a path between Ford and Havant, and on the line through Netley.

You probably could slot something in ahead of xx30 from Brighton now, behind the Littlehampton service through Angmering, and ahead of the Bognor service at Ford but it may well conflict further west.