Son was detained by BTP when trying to pay his fare, while fare evaders are let off

[beerswiller]

Having always paid my way I am disgusted by the amount of people being let off for not buying a ticket.

My son boarded a train at Atherton (Greater Manchester) intent to get to Buxton. He would have to change at Salford Crescent for Piccadilly where he would have caught his connection to Buxton.
Atherton Station had no one in the booking office and he didn't have the correct change for the ticket machine. The ticket officer then walked into the reception area where it looked she had gone to her car for her flask. he was on the last min where the ticket lady told him to pay the conductor on the train. This train was crammed like sardines on a two carriage train. The conductor would have not been able to move. He got off at Salford Crescent and only had a few mins before the Piccadilly train arrived, again this was packed.
When he got to Piccadilly he went to the ticket office where a man and a woman were leaning against the counter, the moved slightly away so my Son could buy his ticket. He explained to the ticket master he had come from Atherton and wanted to buy a ticket to Buxton. He was immediately questioned by these two jobs worths as to why he hadn't paid at Atherton. He did get slightly annoyed by these two people who called for the police.
My son was then arrested for avoiding to pay. After explaining to the police,( who did treat him like a criminal) they released him where he bought a ticket and came back home.

My wife and myself use Transport in Greater Manchester a lot and have been on trams and trains and even busses where people board without a ticket and have no intention of paying. A tram we were on stopped not too far from Man Victoria when transport officers boarded and began asking for tickets. Two lads were questioned and we heard the conversation and were found not to have any tickets, they were allowed to continue. I grabbed one of these inspectors and said, "had that been us we'd have been made an example of" we both showed disgust, the inspector said "they're regular offenders we know them? but yet these get away scott free with no intentions of paying.
So if your a regular offender you can get free travel?



My

 

[gray1404]

My son boarded a train at Atherton (Greater Manchester) intent to get to Buxton. He would have to change at Salford Crescent for Piccadilly where he would have caught his connection to Buxton.
Atherton Station had no one in the booking office and he didn't have the correct change for the ticket machine. The ticket officer then walked into the reception area where it looked she had gone to her car for her flask. he was on the last min where the ticket lady told him to pay the conductor on the train. This train was crammed like sardines on a two carriage train. The conductor would have not been able to move. He got off at Salford Crescent and only had a few mins before the Piccadilly train arrived, again this was packed.
When he got to Piccadilly he went to the ticket office where a man and a woman were leaning against the counter, the moved slightly away so my Son could buy his ticket. He explained to the ticket master he had come from Atherton and wanted to buy a ticket to Buxton. He was immediately questioned by these two jobs worths as to why he hadn't paid at Atherton. He did get slightly annoyed by these two people who called for the police.
My son was then arrested for avoiding to pay. After explaining to the police,( who did treat him like a criminal) they released him where he bought a ticket and came back home.

Sorry to hear about you son's experience. Something clearly went wrong here for your son to end up getting arrested. How recent was this event? Perhaps you should post this under it's own thread in the disputes sections and see what advise others can give.

 

[pemma]

Having always paid my way I am disgusted by the amount of people being let off for not buying a ticket.

My son boarded a train at Atherton (Greater Manchester) intent to get to Buxton. He would have to change at Salford Crescent for Piccadilly where he would have caught his connection to Buxton.
Atherton Station had no one in the booking office and he didn't have the correct change for the ticket machine. The ticket officer then walked into the reception area where it looked she had gone to her car for her flask. he was on the last min where the ticket lady told him to pay the conductor on the train. This train was crammed like sardines on a two carriage train. The conductor would have not been able to move. He got off at Salford Crescent and only had a few mins before the Piccadilly train arrived, again this was packed.
When he got to Piccadilly he went to the ticket office where a man and a woman were leaning against the counter, the moved slightly away so my Son could buy his ticket. He explained to the ticket master he had come from Atherton and wanted to buy a ticket to Buxton. He was immediately questioned by these two jobs worths as to why he hadn't paid at Atherton. He did get slightly annoyed by these two people who called for the police.
My son was then arrested for avoiding to pay. After explaining to the police,( who did treat him like a criminal) they released him where he bought a ticket and came back home.

My wife and myself use Transport in Greater Manchester a lot and have been on trams and trains and even busses where people board without a ticket and have no intention of paying. A tram we were on stopped not too far from Man Victoria when transport officers boarded and began asking for tickets. Two lads were questioned and we heard the conversation and were found not to have any tickets, they were allowed to continue. I grabbed one of these inspectors and said, "had that been us we'd have been made an example of" we both showed disgust, the inspector said "they're regular offenders we know them? but yet these get away scott free with no intentions of paying.
So if your a regular offender you can get free travel?

While Metrolink and Northern both serve Manchester they are different services with different approaches. If the Metrolink offenders were regular offenders it could be the RPIs already know their address.

While others may not agree if you and your son are willing to have to your names printed in a local newspaper I'd suggest contacting your local paper about the incident. Negative PR is more likely to affect their approach than having to write an apology letter, even if they enclose a complimentary voucher with it.

 

[najaB]

My son was then arrested for avoiding to pay. After explaining to the police,( who did treat him like a criminal) they released him where he bought a ticket and came back home.

Was he arrested? As far as I know BTP will only arrest people who present a danger to staff or other passengers. It is exceedingly rare for them to get involved in simple ticketing matters unless the passenger is abusive or acting in a threatening manner.

 

[6Gman]

Having always paid my way I am disgusted by the amount of people being let off for not buying a ticket.

My son boarded a train at Atherton (Greater Manchester) intent to get to Buxton. He would have to change at Salford Crescent for Piccadilly where he would have caught his connection to Buxton.
Atherton Station had no one in the booking office and he didn't have the correct change for the ticket machine. The ticket officer then walked into the reception area where it looked she had gone to her car for her flask. he was on the last min where the ticket lady told him to pay the conductor on the train. This train was crammed like sardines on a two carriage train. The conductor would have not been able to move. He got off at Salford Crescent and only had a few mins before the Piccadilly train arrived, again this was packed.
When he got to Piccadilly he went to the ticket office where a man and a woman were leaning against the counter, the moved slightly away so my Son could buy his ticket. He explained to the ticket master he had come from Atherton and wanted to buy a ticket to Buxton. He was immediately questioned by these two jobs worths as to why he hadn't paid at Atherton. He did get slightly annoyed by these two people who called for the police.
My son was then arrested for avoiding to pay. After explaining to the police,( who did treat him like a criminal) they released him where he bought a ticket and came back home.

My wife and myself use Transport in Greater Manchester a lot and have been on trams and trains and even busses where people board without a ticket and have no intention of paying. A tram we were on stopped not too far from Man Victoria when transport officers boarded and began asking for tickets. Two lads were questioned and we heard the conversation and were found not to have any tickets, they were allowed to continue. I grabbed one of these inspectors and said, "had that been us we'd have been made an example of" we both showed disgust, the inspector said "they're regular offenders we know them? but yet these get away scott free with no intentions of paying.
So if your a regular offender you can get free travel?

My

I wonder if there was an Attitude Test issue here?

 

[najaB]

I wonder if there was an Attitude Test issue here?

It is unusual for BTP to be called to 'deal with' a cooperative passenger.

 

[gray1404]

The problem is a customer can fail the so called attitude test if they are in the right about using a valid ticket, but the staff insist it is invalid (even though it isn't).

 

[najaB]

The problem is a customer can fail the so called attitude test if they are in the right about using a valid ticket, but the staff insist it is invalid (even though it isn't).

True. However it is possible to express disagreement in a manner that doesn't necessitate an intervention by BTP.

 

[bramling]

True. However it is possible to express disagreement in a manner that doesn't necessitate an intervention by BTP.

Yea but equally I can quite believe that some staff will clam up at the first inkling of being challenged.

 

[skyhigh]

It's also slightly unfortunate, but understandable, that BTP get no training on ticketing and generally have to take staff at their word.

 

[shredder1]

I wonder if there was an Attitude Test issue here?

Yes without doubt, the staff failed badly, if we take the post on face value, and it would suggest staff escalated the issue, we are told the guy was trying to pay his fare.

 

[Gareth Marston]

given the franchise commitment on revenue protection that Arriva Rail North have there should be no surprise that Revenu Protection staff should question someone trying to buy a ticket at Piccadily it's up to them to use their discretion on how to act dependent on circumstance.

Given that it seems odd that station staff have cheerily waved customers on their way without a valid ticket esp as it's bleeding obvious that a conductor might not be able to get through on Northerns undersized trains at busy times. there's a disconnect here are station staff setting up victims for Revenue Protection ? Is that's what's being said?

The other disconnect in the OP's sons story is how we got from can I have ticket please to being arrested by BTP? There's a plethora of missing detail here. as the thread this was split off from is clear staff only get BTP involved as an almost last resort.

Did this all escalate when the REvenue Protection staff questioned the "verbal permission to travel"?

 

[WelshBluebird]

True. However it is possible to express disagreement in a manner that doesn't necessitate an intervention by BTP.

The problem is, getting told you are trying to avoid paying your fair and being accused of breaking the law by staff who are insistent that they are right even when they are not does tend to annoy even the most patient of people to say the least. It is perfectible acceptable in my view to react to that situation in such a way that probably would "fail the attitude test" (of course I am not talking about abuse here, simple strong worded disagreement) as a lot of staff don't like being told that they are wrong!

given the franchise commitment on revenue protection that Arriva Rail North have there should be no surprise that Revenu Protection staff should question someone trying to buy a ticket at Piccadily it's up to them to use their discretion on how to act dependent on circumstance.

Surely that isn't true? It cannot be up to the revenue staff if they treat someone as a fare evader even if buying a ticket at Piccadilly is their first opportunity to buy?

 

[313103]

Having always paid my way I am disgusted by the amount of people being let off for not buying a ticket.

My son boarded a train at Atherton (Greater Manchester) intent to get to Buxton. He would have to change at Salford Crescent for Piccadilly where he would have caught his connection to Buxton.
Atherton Station had no one in the booking office and he didn't have the correct change for the ticket machine. The ticket officer then walked into the reception area where it looked she had gone to her car for her flask. he was on the last min where the ticket lady told him to pay the conductor on the train. This train was crammed like sardines on a two carriage train. The conductor would have not been able to move. He got off at Salford Crescent and only had a few mins before the Piccadilly train arrived, again this was packed.
When he got to Piccadilly he went to the ticket office where a man and a woman were leaning against the counter, the moved slightly away so my Son could buy his ticket. He explained to the ticket master he had come from Atherton and wanted to buy a ticket to Buxton. He was immediately questioned by these two jobs worths as to why he hadn't paid at Atherton. He did get slightly annoyed by these two people who called for the police.
My son was then arrested for avoiding to pay. After explaining to the police,( who did treat him like a criminal) they released him where he bought a ticket and came back home.

My wife and myself use Transport in Greater Manchester a lot and have been on trams and trains and even busses where people board without a ticket and have no intention of paying. A tram we were on stopped not too far from Man Victoria when transport officers boarded and began asking for tickets. Two lads were questioned and we heard the conversation and were found not to have any tickets, they were allowed to continue. I grabbed one of these inspectors and said, "had that been us we'd have been made an example of" we both showed disgust, the inspector said "they're regular offenders we know them? but yet these get away scott free with no intentions of paying.
So if your a regular offender you can get free travel?



My

I was reading this in the hope that i could give advice and the minute you said 'These two Jobsworths' i switched off and thought i cant give any advice.

 

[najaB]

Surely that isn't true? It cannot be up to the revenue staff if they treat someone as a fare evader even if buying a ticket at Piccadilly which they claim is their first opportunity to buy?

Fixed that for you.

The point being that there are so many chancers out there that honest people get caught up in the net.

 

[gray1404]

given the franchise commitment on revenue protection that Arriva Rail North have there should be no surprise that Revenu Protection staff should question someone trying to buy a ticket at Piccadily it's up to them to use their discretion on how to act dependent on circumstance.

Given that it seems odd that station staff have cheerily waved customers on their way without a valid ticket esp as it's bleeding obvious that a conductor might not be able to get through on Northerns undersized trains at busy times. there's a disconnect here are station staff setting up victims for Revenue Protection ? Is that's what's being said?

The other disconnect in the OP's sons story is how we got from can I have ticket please to being arrested by BTP? There's a plethora of missing detail here. as the thread this was split off from is clear staff only get BTP involved as an almost last resort.

Did this all escalate when the REvenue Protection staff questioned the "verbal permission to travel"?

You make some very valid points here.

I do not believe we have been told the full story and you do not get from "can I have a ticket" to being arrested just like that, even if you were trying to avoid payment of fare.

You raise an interesting point over people being set up to have problems. I could imagine the station staff quite innocently thinking that it is not too much of a deal if they instruct a few people to pay on the train. After all the guard will surely get to them. I do not think the station staff will be thinking about the increased amount of work this makes for the guard.

Then the said guard in question may think, there is a ticket office there, I should not have to come down the train and let the staff at the other end sort them out. Or it could be that he is unable to get down the train in time or is unable to sell tickets. I doubt the guard will be thinking that perhaps the station staff did give permission.

Then you get to the people at the other end - the contacted people - they may be coming at it from the point of view that by the time a person gets to them they have already been through a staffed station with a ticket office (in the case here) and been on board train with a guard on board who is able to sell tickets. So by the time someone gets to them having come from a staffed station they must really be trying it on. I doubt they would think for one moment about the situation from the view of the booking office who gave permission or the guard who was unable to sell the ticket for whatsoever reason.

In short, I think it is a combination of staff in different job roles viewing things differently. None of this helps the passenger.

 

[daodao]

You make some very valid points here.

I do not believe we have been told the full story and you do not get from "can I have a ticket" to being arrested just like that, even if you were trying to avoid payment of fare.

You raise an interesting point over people being set up to have problems. I could imagine the station staff quite innocently thinking that it is not too much of a deal if they instruct a few people to pay on the train. After all the guard will surely get to them. I do not think the station staff will be thinking about the increased amount of work this makes for the guard.

Then the said guard in question may think, there is a ticket office there, I should not have to come down the train and let the staff at the other end sort them out. Or it could be that he is unable to get down the train in time or is unable to sell tickets. I doubt the guard will be thinking that perhaps the station staff did give permission.

Then you get to the people at the other end - the contacted people - they may be coming at it from the point of view that by the time a person gets to them they have already been through a staffed station with a ticket office (in the case here) and been on board train with a guard on board who is able to sell tickets. So by the time someone gets to them having come from a staffed station they must really be trying it on. I doubt they would think for one moment about the situation from the view of the booking office who gave permission or the guard who was unable to sell the ticket for whatsoever reason.

In short, I think it is a combination of staff in different job roles viewing things differently. None of this helps the passenger.

The ticketing purchase arrangements on this TOC appear to be sub-optimal, and put the passenger at risk of prosecution if he/she decides to travel from a supposedly staffed station, or one with a TVM, without a ticket, if there are no staff actually there and/or the TVMs are "out-of-order". There is also a risk when travelling from an unmanned station with no TVM if one is unable to buy a ticket from the guard before arriving at one's destination, if this is a staffed station.

There should be adequate TVMs (at least 2) at all stations, or at least 2 "Permit to Travel" machines, and the ability to contact a central control office before boarding if these are not working. Boarding trains without a ticket could then be made subject to Penalty Fare arrangements. That is how M/c Metrolink or the LM TOC works.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is Piccadilly still infested with STM (?) contractors on revenue duties? Last time I was there, they seemed to be hoping to challenge Blackpool North station staff for the title of "Most unnecessarily aggressive railway staff".

 

[pemma]

Is Piccadilly still infested with STM (?) contractors on revenue duties? Last time I was there, they seemed to be hoping to challenge Blackpool North station staff for the title of "Most unnecessarily aggressive railway staff".

Piccadilly still has contracted RPIs working on behalf of Northern but the number of platforms they cover have been reduced as Virgin RPIs cover the platforms which have had automated barriers installed.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The ticketing purchase arrangements on this TOC appear to be sub-optimal, and put the passenger at risk of prosecution if he/she decides to travel from a supposedly staffed station, or one with a TVM, without a ticket, if there are no staff actually there and/or the TVMs are "out-of-order". There is also a risk when travelling from an unmanned station with no TVM if one is unable to buy a ticket from the guard before arriving at one's destination, if this is a staffed station.

There should be adequate TVMs (at least 2) at all stations, or at least 2 "Permit to Travel" machines, and the ability to contact a central control office before boarding if these are not working. Boarding trains without a ticket could then be made subject to Penalty Fare arrangements. That is how M/c Metrolink or the LM TOC works.

Your missing the fact that the OP's son has gone past the Ticket Buying Facilities at Salford Crescent - (Booking Office & TVM) without availing himself of the opportunity he has to purchase when interchanging there.

Anyone rocking up at Piccadily originating from Atherton has gone past 2 booking offices, 2 TVM's and 2 trains where the conductor could have sold a ticket.

There's no mention of Salford Crescent from the OP not even a complaint about staff there so I suspect the son has just stood on platform and ignored the facilities there.

If you make yourself cat nip for Revenue Protection Staff you shouldn't be surprised when they come sniffing.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Your missing the fact that the OP's son has gone past the Ticket Buying Facilities at Salford Crescent - (Booking Office & TVM) without availing himself of the opportunity he has to purchase when interchanging there.

Anyone rocking up at Piccadily originating from Atherton has gone past 2 booking offices, 2 TVM's and 2 trains where the conductor could have sold a ticket.

There's no mention of Salford Crescent from the OP not even a complaint about staff there so I suspect the son has just stood on platform and ignored the facilities there.

If you make yourself cat nip for Revenue Protection Staff you shouldn't be surprised when they come sniffing.

Any precedent that would involve a passenger having to delay themselves whilst travelling because of inadequate ticketing facilities would be worrying IMO. So if the passenger only had "a few mins" between trains at Salfrod Crescent (which is what is claimed in the OP), then is that really an opportunity to pay?

 

[CentralTrainer]

Any precedent that would involve a passenger having to delay themselves whilst travelling because of inadequate ticketing facilities would be worrying IMO. So if the passenger only had "a few mins" between trains at Salfrod Crescent (which is what is claimed in the OP), then is that really an opportunity to pay?

Just done a quick rough and ready search on the NRE website for a journey from Atherton to Picc just changing at Salford Crescent.

On average (and if not delayed on the first leg) - a passenger would have 23 minutes to wait between getting off the Atherton leg and boarding the service into Piccadilly.

Without knowing the exact date and journey undertaken - it's hard to form a concrete conclusion

 

[pemma]

Your missing the fact that the OP's son has gone past the Ticket Buying Facilities at Salford Crescent - (Booking Office & TVM) without availing himself of the opportunity he has to purchase when interchanging there.

Is the TVM at Salford Crescent able to sell a ticket from Atherton?

Presumably the journey involved using the following services:
Southport to Manchester Victoria
Southport to Manchester Airport
Manchester Piccadilly to Buxton

On paper that does give enough time to purchase a ticket at Salford Crescent. However, if the ex-Wigan train was late should the passenger have arrived in Buxton 60 minutes late because the booking office at Atherton was temporarily unstaffed?

Looking at the standard pattern departures from Atherton the Southport-Victoria service departs 5 minutes after the Victoria-Kirkby service but after Southport-Victoria there isn't another departure for 26 minutes. Was the ticket office clerk going to die of thrust if she waited 5 minutes for the Victoria service to depart before going to get her flask?

 

[185]

Piccadilly still has contracted RPIs working on behalf of Northern but the number of platforms they cover have been reduced as Virgin RPIs cover the platforms which have had automated barriers installed.

STM on-stations contract has passed to Carlisle Plc two months ago.

Some RPOs were brought in house. On train RPAs were introduced (Loss Prevention Officers), also brought in house.

STMs main remaining contract in Manchester is now security teams (Travelsafe) - on Metrolink.

 

[falcon]

Is Piccadilly still infested with STM (?) contractors on revenue duties? Last time I was there, they seemed to be hoping to challenge Blackpool North station staff for the title of "Most unnecessarily aggressive railway staff".

Therin lies the whole issue with ticket checking and revenue protection on the railways in it's entirety. Utterly incompetent staff with inadiquate trainging AND testing.

Under BR revenue protection staff where paid high rate of pay to attract the correct people for the job and given a two week training course to learn the bye laws and rules and regulations regarding ticketing on the railways.Consitant across the entire network.

Now we have a situation where agency staff are used on minimum wage some of whom where working through the agency in a wearhouse or factory the week before they started checking tickets.

Also the Attitued test should not be an issue. A good RPI will resist his own feelings about an individual and how he is being spoken to and will stick to the facts and legal reqirements of the situation whilst keeping a realistic approach to the complications of the ticketing situation on the railways.

Someone from an agency that is working through an agency for a reason is highly unlikely to do that.

It is not realised by managemnet that revenue protection on the railways IS a very skilled job and requires bright,intelligent people who should be tested and passed out before thay are allowed to take up the job.

 

[pemma]

Now we have a situation where agency staff are used on minimum wage some of whom where working through the agency in a wearhouse or factory the week before they started checking tickets.

When G4S had the contract there was one RPI who I saw checking rail tickets and then a few weeks later he was checking Metrolink tickets.

However, in fairness there are some RPIs who see it as a stepping stone to get a ticket office role and do make an effort to try and learn as much as they can.

 

[221129]

Atherton Station had no one in the booking office and he didn't have the correct change for the ticket machine.

So how was he going to pay for his ticket? Was it a cash only TVM? If it accepts coins it will almost certainly accept notes and Card....

 

[pemma]

So how was he going to pay for his ticket? Was it a cash only TVM? If it accepts coins it will almost certainly accept notes and Card....

If it's saying 'correct change only' then (presuming it wasn't railcard discounted) an exact £17 would have to be inserted for an Atherton to Buxton off-peak day return. The argument of whether you should have to pay by card if you have sufficient money to pay for a ticket has been done to death before.

 

[221129]

If it's saying 'correct change only' then (presuming it wasn't railcard discounted) an exact £17 would have to be inserted for an Atherton to Buxton off-peak day return. The argument of whether you should have to pay by card if you have sufficient money to pay for a ticket has been done to death before.

I have never come across a TVM only accepting correct change. That's not to say it didn't happen, but there is a lot more to this story than is being made out.

 

[pemma]

I have never come across a TVM only accepting correct change. That's not to say it didn't happen, but there is a lot more to this story than is being made out.

The Northern Parkeon one at my local station regularly had a message scrolling on it saying Correct Change Only. That was until Northern removed the facility to pay by cash and made it a card only TVM - a card only TVM which regularly rejects payment if you try to use a credit card rather than a debit card!