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Sorry - Another Northern Rail court summons

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ForTheLoveOf

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The law doesn't expect that at all if the grounds for appeal are he would rather not pay it. He had no grounds for appeal, under the law as I quoted above, therefore the TOC is perfectly entitled under law to prosecute if he doesn't pay.
It's not necessary for the appeal to be successful, or to have valid grounds. You could appeal on the basis that you don't like Northern and shouldn't have to pay therefore. If the appeal was rejected you still wouldn't be able to be prosecuted.

The relevant provision is—
(3) Where a person falling within paragraph (1)(a) has appealed against the penalty fare under regulation 16, proceedings for any of the offences specified in paragraph (4) may only be brought against that person for the same failure to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket if the operator, on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged, notifies the relevant Appeal Panel that the penalty fare is cancelled before—

(a)the relevant Appeal Panel has decided the outcome of the appeal under regulation 16; or

(b)the time period mentioned in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 expires,

whichever is sooner.
Subparagraph (a) is not about whether the appeal was allowed. It is about whether the Appeal Panel have decided the outcome of an appeal. That could be that the appeal is unsuccessful for whatever reason, but it is a decision about the outcome. The need for an appeal to be successful isn't in there anywhere, because it doesn't exist.

As it is, the Regulations essentially force a train company to stick with their decision to issue a Penalty Fare in regularisation of an offence, unless the passenger fails to pay and fails to appeal - i.e. they fail to engage with the system at all. If they do engage then the TOC's right to prosecute is lost, as a balancing force against the ability to reverse the normal burden of proof.

This is all quite reasonable and it simply stops the TOC from having it both ways - issuing a penalty against the passenger with a reversed burden of proof, and then reverting to the might of the Criminal Courts when that doesn't suit them any more. They have every right to continue to pursue unpaid Penalty Fares as far as the County Courts. That they don't is their decision and not one for which passengers can be penalised.
 
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Bertie the bus

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I didn’t say the appeal has to be successful. I said the appeal has to be made on certain criteria, which I have listed.

People are quoting section 11, paragraph 3 as proof that if you appeal the TOC can’t prosecute. Section 11, paragraph 3 doesn’t say that. It says they can’t prosecute if you appeal under regulation 16. Regulation 16 lists the appropriate grounds for appeal, as have I above.

It is a fact a, b and c don’t apply In this case. It would take a very brave man to turn up at court and claim d applies simply because they didn’t want to receive the Penalty Fare and therefore he can’t be prosecuted.
 

some bloke

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I didn’t say the appeal has to be successful. I said the appeal has to be made on certain criteria, which I have listed.

People are quoting section 11, paragraph 3 as proof that if you appeal the TOC can’t prosecute. Section 11, paragraph 3 doesn’t say that. It says they can’t prosecute if you appeal under regulation 16. Regulation 16 lists the appropriate grounds for appeal, as have I above.

It is a fact a, b and c don’t apply In this case. It would take a very brave man to turn up at court and claim d applies simply because they didn’t want to receive the Penalty Fare and therefore he can’t be prosecuted.
They can't prosecute if the appeal panel has made a decision.

The Regulations make clear that the appeal panel decides whether the "ground" applies.

The word "ground" doesn't mean that there actually is a valid basis in the claimed reasons for making an appeal. So the argument can be ridiculous, and the system still counts the passenger as having made the appeal on the ground in one of the four categories - ie on that claimed basis.

The so-called "ground" may not actually mean the claim has a solid "grounding". A pre-screening to ensure the "ground" applies could involve the same kind of assessment that the appeals body does anyway.
 
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Bertie the bus

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Just to be clear, what you are saying is a person can appeal based on the fact they have a season ticket for that journey but couldn't produce it at the time and then not provide proof of the season ticket on appeal because they didn't have one but they can't be prosecuted just because they used that as a basis for appeal?

Unless you can provide real world proof I simply don't believe that is true.
 

some bloke

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Just to be clear, what you are saying is a person can appeal based on the fact they have a season ticket for that journey but couldn't produce it at the time and then not provide proof of the season ticket on appeal because they didn't have one but they can't be prosecuted just because they used that as a basis for appeal?

Unless you can provide real world proof I simply don't believe that is true.
If the appeal panel makes a decision, the company can't prosecute under the specified legislation - unless they want to make a legal argument that the decision wasn't in accordance with the regulations: that the panel shouldn't have made that decision because the appeal should have been rejected at an earlier stage.

I don't think it's likely a company is going to try that line, that the appeals body took the wrong approach.

Whether appeals body staff do contact would-be appellants in some cases saying they haven't given the appropriate information is a question the appeals body might answer, rather than people on here. That question is not relevant to the present case if @JimmyC received a formal appeal decision.
 
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Bertie the bus

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Your opinion isn’t fact and claiming that someone simply putting a cross in a box and sending a form off as an appeal constitutes a valid appeal as stated in the regulations isn’t credible.
 

some bloke

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Your opinion isn’t fact and claiming that someone simply putting a cross in a box and sending a form off as an appeal constitutes a valid appeal as stated in the regulations isn’t credible.
Please start a new thread if you wish to make general points. I think the issue about the present case has been answered.
 

island

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I fear this thread has gone off into a siding and is now going round in circles.

Assuming the OP’s account is accurate, there are (at least) two irregularities, namely:
1) He purchased a ticket, so the Penalty Fare was improperly issued
2) He has appealed against the Penalty Fare and the appeal has been determined, therefore a prosecution is barred

Either should be sufficient to dispose of the matter.
 

some bloke

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I fear this thread has gone off into a siding and is now going round in circles.

Assuming the OP’s account is accurate, there are (at least) two irregularities, namely:
1) He purchased a ticket, so the Penalty Fare was improperly issued
2) He has appealed against the Penalty Fare and the appeal has been determined, therefore a prosecution is barred

Either should be sufficient to dispose of the matter.

He hasn't said clearly that he first purchased the ticket then was charged a Penalty Fare. It would be very odd if the clerk sold the ticket and then charged the PF. I suspect that maybe he was told he was being charged the PF before being sold a ticket, but interpreted it as "on top" of the ticket when really it was the other way round (he needed the ticket to travel further than the PF allowed).

However, there may be an irregularity about the PF if he wasn't asked to produce a valid ticket. He appealed on a different ground and lost; he still feels he shouldn't have to pay for the PF, and I'm suggesting that perhaps in view of the wording of Regulation 4 it shouldn't have been charged. Challenging it now might be a different matter, though there may be a general point if the same has happened to other people.

He has mentioned a s.5(1) offence, which isn't barred by the PF regulations. But it is inapplicable because he gave his name and address.
 

Bertie the bus

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1) He purchased a ticket, so the Penalty Fare was improperly issued
Purchasing a ticket after you have been issued a Penalty Fare does not mean it was improperly issued. He said he purchased a ticket from the ticket office. That is the other side of the barriers and after he was issued the Penalty Fare.
 

island

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Purchasing a ticket after you have been issued a Penalty Fare does not mean it was improperly issued. He said he purchased a ticket from the ticket office. That is the other side of the barriers and after he was issued the Penalty Fare.
I may have missed or misread that in all the fluff.

Nevertheless, the second point still stands. Once a Penalty Fare appeal has been determined, a prosecution is no longer possible for most ticketing offences.
 

some bloke

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It seems the ticket was bought at the same office as the PF was charged. It isn't clear to me that the PF was issued in accordance with the regulations: there may have been an irregularity if the ticket seller didn't ask for a valid ticket. It might have seemed odd if they did ask for a ticket, if JimmyC had already said he didn't have one. This might be an issue of wider significance.

I got off the train in Leeds and went straight to the ticket desk, I advised them that I had got on in Bramley and I needed a return ticket to and from there. Thy guy apologised that he had to issue me with a £20 fine and said to appeal it as he could tell I was being honest.

I paid the cost of the fare when I went to the ticket office, the £20 penalty fare was on top of the £10.20 fare I went up to pay.

when I got off the train in Leeds, I went straight to the ticket office and advised them I had boarded at Bramley and I needed to buy a return ticket from there. I paid the standard fair but was issued with the penalty fare on top.
 
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some bloke

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@JimmyC , the situation seems to be this:

1. We can't see how the company can successfully prosecute you. The section you refer to, 5(1), doesn't apply: you can simply write back and say you can't be guilty because you gave your name and address. The other section which would normally be relevant, 5(3), and the byelaws, are irrelevant if you received a formal appeal decision on the penalty fare. The company is not allowed to prosecute under them after such a decision.

2. You may be right that the Penalty Fare was incorrectly issued. The PF regulations seem to be about people being asked for a valid ticket, not about people who go and ask for one.

3. You may have a justifiable grievance against the ticket seller for giving an impression that if you had behaved honestly, you could successfully appeal against the PF on that ground.

It may be hard to prove 2, but it may be plausible. It's hard to prove 3.

If they want the penalty fare and fee, their recourse is through the civil court. It's been said that companies basically don't do this.

The first priority is dealing with the criminal allegation. If the PF was incorrectly issued, there may be resistance to admitting it, partly because it may affect other cases as well as yours.
 
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JimmyC

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Thank you for all the responses and I'm sorry for the delay in my response to everyone. It seems I have caused quite the debate and it seems very split opinions on if I can be charged or not. I've decided I am going to go to court and find out.

I personally think it's absolutey ridiculos and can't stand Nortern Rail which has added to my stuborness on the matter. It's my belief that they are twisting the law for their own financial gain (we all know they are in a mess so every little helps) - I used to work in Housing Benefit fraud and I do beleive in our court system so I'm hoping that commen sense with prevail and that a the magistates with understand and take my side.

I know it's a risk going but I'm not going to pay Northern Rail a penny unless I'm told to do so by the court.

I can't quite remember the sequence of events as to which came first, me buying the ticket or being issued with the penalty fare. However, I approached the ticket office and spoke to a memeber of staff (before the ticket office) told him I needed a ticket from Bramley and the fine was issued and I bought a ticket. I know he took me to the ticket desk but I can't remember which order it happened.

The laws have been put in place to stop ticket evasion which I fully support, but clearly I wasn't trying to do this.

Also to the ex conductor who worked that line who's opinion is it that it is my fault and I have done something wrong - I had a verbal warning from work for being late due to how terrible the serive is from Northern Rail so if I'd missed that train to buy a ticket, I could have lost my job. I think everyone is guilty of running late from time to time and surely Northern Rail can appreicate that more than anyone! It shouldn't be a reason to extort £20 out of someone.

I have only had an email advising me about going to court so far. No summons in the post yet so I've emailed Northern to find out what I'm being charged under and I will update once I know more!
 

jumble

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Having read some of the comments on this thread which suggest if you are caught without a ticket there are 3 options open to the TOC:

1. Sell a ticket
2. Issue a Penalty Fare
3. Prosecute
.
I would suggest that they can issue a UFN as a 4th option , offer an administrative settlement as a 5th or let off the customer as a 6th option ( entirely possible if the customer is railway staff or off duty police)
 

some bloke

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I've emailed Northern to find out what I'm being charged under
You should be able to dispose of this without going through their normal procedure.

Did you tell them about the points above? You do need to have received a formal appeal decision, but if so they should drop all talk of prosecution straight away.

The section you refer to, 5(1), doesn't apply: you can simply write back and say you can't be guilty because you gave your name and address. The other section which would normally be relevant, 5(3), and the byelaws, are irrelevant if you received a formal appeal decision on the penalty fare. The company is not allowed to prosecute under them after such a decision.
 

JimmyC

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You should be able to dispose of this without going through their normal procedure.

Did you tell them about the points above? You do need to have received a formal appeal decision, but if so they should drop all talk of prosecution straight away.


I don't really understand this point. I assumed if I appealed and it was unsucsessful that the next step would be prosecution? Can you explain and I will raise this to NR.

Thank you
 

some bloke

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If you received a formal appeal decision, the company cannot prosecute under the legislation mentioned in the Penalty Fare Regulations - see 11(3) and 11(4).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

And they can't succeed under 5(1), because you clearly gave your name and address for the Penalty Fare.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

So you can say "I cannot see that there is any relevant criminal offence for which the company could successfully prosecute".

You could follow up an email with a phone call, and include in any email the request that they confirm the allegation has been dropped within a very short period (eg by the end of the day).

They could have prosecuted for a relevant offence before you received an appeal decision. But if there was an appeal decision, it seems the company didn't do what was necessary (ie tell the appeal board before the decision).
 

JimmyC

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If you received a formal appeal decision, the company cannot prosecute under the legislation mentioned in the Penalty Fare Regulations - see 11(3) and 11(4).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

And they can't succeed under 5(1), because you clearly gave your name and address for the Penalty Fare.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

So you can say "I cannot see that there is any relevant criminal offence for which the company could successfully prosecute".

You could follow up an email with a phone call, and include in any email the request that they confirm the allegation has been dropped within a very short period (eg by the end of the day).

They could have prosecuted for a relevant offence before you received an appeal decision, but they didn't do what was necessary (ie tell the appeal board before the decision).

Amazing - Thank you so much for pointing this out to me. I'm going to wait for there response to my emails which I sent this morning and then send this. I will update you once I have done.
 

JimmyC

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If you received a formal appeal decision, the company cannot prosecute under the legislation mentioned in the Penalty Fare Regulations - see 11(3) and 11(4).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

And they can't succeed under 5(1), because you clearly gave your name and address for the Penalty Fare.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

So you can say "I cannot see that there is any relevant criminal offence for which the company could successfully prosecute".

You could follow up an email with a phone call, and include in any email the request that they confirm the allegation has been dropped within a very short period (eg by the end of the day).

They could have prosecuted for a relevant offence before you received an appeal decision. But if there was an appeal decision, it seems the company didn't do what was necessary (ie tell the appeal board before the decision).

I've sent a new email - I'll advice as soon as I have a resonse.
 

Haywain

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if the ticket seller didn't ask for a valid ticket.
It seems utterly ridiculous to suggest that immediately after someone states that they are not in possession of a ticket, they should be asked if they have a valid ticket, and I struggle to believe that a court would see a failure to ask as a fault in the process. In any event, asking such a question in those circumstances is quite likely to cause confrontation.
I would suggest that they can issue a UFN as a 4th option
UFNs do not often exist in parallel with a Penalty Fare scheme, I believe. They are more usually seen as an alternative.
 

JimmyC

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Hello, so I've finally got my court summons and I'm being prosecuted for
On ************ at LEEDS station being a passenger on the railway, failed, on request by an
officer or servant of the railway company, to produce and deliver up a ticket showing that your fare
was paid or to pay the fare from the place whence your journey started.
Contrary to section 5(1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

So I did fail to produce a ticket but I didn't fail to pay the fare from which the journey started.
It's very confusing stuff.
 

some bloke

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section 5(1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.
...It's very confusing stuff.
Hi Jimmy - do these links help?
The fact that someone cannot be guilty if they meet any of the three is explained here:
https://global.oup.com/booksites/content/9780199594825/updates/ch_26/
"...section 5(1) ...you have a complete defence because you gave your name and address."
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/commentary-and-opinion/virtual-realities/5060076.article
 

some bloke

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They're wasting everyone's time. You can email them:

The section you refer to, 5(1), doesn't apply: you can simply write back and say you can't be guilty because you gave your name and address.

they can't succeed under 5(1), because you clearly gave your name and address for the Penalty Fare.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

So you can say "I cannot see that there is any relevant criminal offence for which the company could successfully prosecute".

You could follow up an email with a phone call, and include in any email the request that they confirm the allegation has been dropped within a very short period (eg by the end of the day).
 

some bloke

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You can send them the links. You may have a legitimate complaint about them prosecuting on the wrong basis.
 
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furlong

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Use a solicitor. You've changed some of the information given here and not answered other important questions, so you should ask a professional to check the key parts of the paperwork and then prepare an appropriate response on your behalf. For example, they need to consider whether or not there is a case to answer (for the reasons suggested on this thread) or abuse of process, and if they think there isn't as has been suggested by some here on the basis of your incomplete information, present that legal argument to the court in the correct way.
 
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some bloke

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A solicitor is one option. However, Northern withdrew the prosecution in the earlier case without a solicitor being needed.

Ok one last time before i send...
5.1 is satisfied because i gave my name and address...if any one of the three are met i have satisfied 5.1...?

They asked for a bit more evidence, which i submitted.
Then they have asked me to pay the fair and the court proceedings will be withdrawn.

(Each case is different; Northern perhaps didn't explicitly accept what Boonaldo said about 5(1); JimmyC, I'm not saying it's clear that you owe the penalty fare.)

Unless there is some complication about your giving your name and address (such as you refusing for some time and only giving details later, and even then it's not clear why that should count it as failing to give details), perhaps it's worth an email requesting that a more senior legal staff member review whether 5(1) is applicable, in view of the links above.
 
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