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South Croydon to Cambridge via Canada Water

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XmaX

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Hi everyone.
I need to travel from Cambridge to South Croydon this Saturday. A super off-peak day return with a 16-25 railcard costs £12.30. However, I might need to be at Canada Water on my way back. Would going by Overground via Canada Water be a permitted route? If so, could I break my journey there?
 
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Ianno87

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Is Cambridge > Finsbury Park > Highbury & Islington > Canada Water > New Cross Gate > South Croydon a permitted route, crossing London by the East London Line? If so, you could do a "normal" break of journey at Canada Water without the need for a second ticket to resume.

The Cambridge > Finsbury Park journey time is decent on an xx30 semi-fast departure.
 

MikeWh

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Is Cambridge > Finsbury Park > Highbury & Islington > Canada Water > New Cross Gate > South Croydon a permitted route, crossing London by the East London Line? If so, you could do a "normal" break of journey at Canada Water without the need for a second ticket to resume.

The Cambridge > Finsbury Park journey time is decent on an xx30 semi-fast departure.

I'll not comment on whether it's a permitted route, although it certainly looks as though it should be ok.

What I will caution though is that Canada Water is an Underground station which happens to be served by National Rail services, and those NR services are operated by London Overground who would prefer you to think that they aren't part of National Rail at all. You might therefore have to have a discussion with barrier staff about being let back into the station. I would recommend being absolutely 100% certain whether it is a permitted route, and be prepared to potentially be delayed, or even have to buy a new ticket (or use an Oyster or Contactless card) to get through the barrier. You'll then need to claim that cost back. LO customer relations do generally understand the rules, but the barrier staff at Canada Water have a long history of getting things spectacularly wrong.
 

Hadders

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The Super Off Peak One Day Travelcard is only £15.00 and might be a better option for a hassle free journey.
 

XmaX

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I'll not comment on whether it's a permitted route, although it certainly looks as though it should be ok.

What I will caution though is that Canada Water is an Underground station which happens to be served by National Rail services, and those NR services are operated by London Overground who would prefer you to think that they aren't part of National Rail at all. You might therefore have to have a discussion with barrier staff about being let back into the station. I would recommend being absolutely 100% certain whether it is a permitted route, and be prepared to potentially be delayed, or even have to buy a new ticket (or use an Oyster or Contactless card) to get through the barrier. You'll then need to claim that cost back. LO customer relations do generally understand the rules, but the barrier staff at Canada Water have a long history of getting things spectacularly wrong.
What if instead of going to Canada Water, I go to Surrey Quays? It makes almost no difference for me, but Surrey Quays is not served by LU so that would potentially make it easier?

I am by no means an expert, but one valid route from South Croydon to Cambridge (even without a break of journey) will be going via New Cross Gate. Given that it's a NR station, I could break my journey there. Then, in my view, the question is: is New Cross Gate to King's Cross (or Liverpool Street) on the Overground via Highbury & Islington a valid route? Given that it's only 1 change to King's Cross, I think it should be.

The Super Off Peak One Day Travelcard is only £15.00 and might be a better option for a hassle free journey.
I am aware of that, and if I decide I want to go to another destination in London or this thread is inconclusive, that's what I will get.
 
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John @ home

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It seems to me that Cambridge to South Croydon via Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington, Canada Water and New Cross Gate is a Permitted Route because it is the shortest route.
National Routeing Guide - Instructions said:
Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing restrictions indicated by the fares data.

http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/nrg_instructions.pdf
According to the Network Rail timetable, this is the shortest route:

Shortest route from Cambridge to South Croydon (72.25 miles)
Cambridge 0, Foxton 7, Shepreth 8, Meldreth 10, Royston 13, Ashwell & Morden 17, Baldock 21.25, Letchworth Garden City 23.25, Hitchin 26.25, Stevenage 30.5, Knebworth 33, Welwyn North 36, Welwyn Garden City 37.75, Hatfield (Herts) 40.25, Welham Green 42.5, Brookmans Park 43.5, Potters Bar 45.25, Hadley Wood 47.5, New Barnet 48.75, Oakleigh Park 49.5, New Southgate 51.5, Alexandra Palace 53, Hornsey (London) 54, Harringay 54.5, Finsbury Park 55.5, Drayton Park 56.25, Highbury & Islington 56.75, Canonbury 57.25, Dalston Junction 58.25, Haggerston 58.5, Hoxton 59.25, Shoreditch High Street 59.75, Whitechapel 60.5, Shadwell 61.25, Wapping 61.75, Rotherhithe 62.25, Canada Water 62.5, Surrey Quays 62.75, New Cross Gate 64, Brockley 65, Honor Oak Park 66, Forest Hill 67, Sydenham 67.75, Penge West 68.5, Anerley 68.75, Norwood Junction 70, East Croydon 71.25, South Croydon 72.25.

http://bukitlawang.com/routes/routes.aspx
 

Hadders

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What if instead of going to Canada Water, I go to Surrey Quays? It makes almost no difference for me, but Surrey Quays is not served by LU so that would potentially make it easier?

The ticket is unquestionably valid for break of journey at Surrey Quays (and Canada Water).

What we can't legislate for is untrained staff who might claim you can't break (or resume) your journey.
 

Paul Kelly

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It's also a mapped route. The origin (a member of Croydon Routeing Group) and destination are routeing points, so no need to bother with the fares check, and it's very clearly mapped on EL+KE via Surrey Quays and Highbury and Islington, both of which are routeing points these days. I would just note though that the online version of map EL very confusing, because it appears as if you have to go via Crystal Palace until you zoom in really closely.
 

MikeWh

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What if instead of going to Canada Water, I go to Surrey Quays? It makes almost no difference for me, but Surrey Quays is not served by LU so that would potentially make it easier?

Well Surrey Quays is run by LO rather than LU, but they have also been known to make up rules and cause issues. On balance you will probably have less of an issue at Surrey Quays, but be prepared to be assertive. The fact that it is actually the shortest route makes things a lot easier because you don't need to bring the routeing guide into the argument. If the worst happens you'll only be charged £1.50 single on a contactless payment card (or Oyster) to travel from Surrey Quays to Finsbury Park and you will get that back from customer services if you have to do that. Just remember to touch out at Finsbury Park before getting the train to Cambridge.
 

XmaX

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Thanks for all the input.

Final question: what if I board the Overground at Surrey Quays, go to Highbury & Islington, and then instead of going one stop north towards Finsbury Park (which I assume can be on either tube or train?), I go one stop south to King's Cross with Victoria Line instead (or alternatively, change to Hammersmith & City line at Whitechapel). This would allow me to catch the faster train to Cambridge. Would that still be valid?
 
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Haywain

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Thanks for all the input.

Final question: what if I board the Overground at Surrey Quays, go to Highbury & Islington, and then instead of going one stop north towards Finsbury Park (which I assume can be on either tube or train?), I go one stop south to King's Cross with Victoria Line instead (or alternatively, change to Hammersmith & City line at Whitechapel). This would allow me to catch the faster train to Cambridge. Would that still be valid?
I think it could be argued that going from Highbury & Islington to Kings Cross would be off-route, although it is really unclear. The Whitechapel option appears to be slightly more reasonable but I can't imagine either causing any problems.
 

maniacmartin

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Thanks for all the input.

Final question: what if I board the Overground at Surrey Quays, go to Highbury & Islington, and then instead of going one stop north towards Finsbury Park (which I assume can be on either tube or train?), I go one stop south to King's Cross with Victoria Line instead (or alternatively, change to Hammersmith & City line at Whitechapel). This would allow me to catch the faster train to Cambridge. Would that still be valid?

National Rail Enquiries will produce this very route if you specify 'via Highbury and Islington'. Print out the itinerary and carry it with you.

I used to commute daily from Surrey Quays by starting short on a point to point season ticket. Over 50% of times I would have hassle at the gateline. Staff believed the National Rail Conditions of Carriage didn't apply to them and that only travelcards permitted break of journey. At Canada Water, gateline staff caused hassle, even when I was armed with a letter from TfL's Fares Manager and after I had been told by a manager on the phone that he had spoken to the particular member of staff. According to one gateline staffer, the Fares Manager was wrong.

Note that this ticket didn't have a cross-London marker (Maltese Cross), so arguing about the shortest route was much easier (and indeed in my case, staff didn't dispute the routeing, just the break of journey). In your case, the shortest route isn't as clear cut and I disagree with John@home that it is the shortest, as in my opinion routes involving the Underground should be considered, which the site the used doesn't consider. If this were not the case, some tickets would have incredibly long 'shortest routes'. However, as it is mapped and NRE makes itineraries, then you are valid.

You will probably be able to talk your way through the gatelines this time round, but if you want to do this regularly, it will fast become frustrating having the gateline argument.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think it could be argued that going from Highbury & Islington to Kings Cross would be off-route, although it is really unclear

When the East London Line first opened under London Overground branding, Canada Water was not on the list of stations where one can start or end a cross-London transfer. For some reason, despite being a valid station to start or resume a cross-London transfer, Whitechapel doesn't have any 'Fixed links' in the database to any other tube station except Aldgate East, so journey planners will never choose it to change at in this case. As such, for journeys from Surrey Quays to the ECML, NRE would give itineraries via New Cross Gate and London Bridge, or via Highbury & Islington and the Victoria line.

Nowadays Surrey Quays is a Routeing Point, and Canada Water is on the list of stations where one can start a cross-London transfer. However, Canada Water only has fixed links to West Ham or Stratford in the database, so journey planners will not consider going via Bermondsey on the Jubilee line. As New Cross Gate is a double-back on the Croydon Stations ticket, the only options that NRE will produce if taking the mapped route via Surrey Quays RP is to continue to Highbury & Islington and start the cross-London transfer there. You could probably get an itinerary via New Cross and London Bridge too if you tried.
 
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XmaX

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So I did the trip yesterday, and the behaviour of the gates was weird to say the least.
IN: Cambridge - opened
OUT: Finsbury Park - opened
IN: Finsbury Park Undergroud - opened
OUT: Victoria Underground - opened
IN: Victoria - didn't open
OUT: East Croydon - didn't open
(took the route via Victoria, as the Northern Line between King's Cross and London Bridge was not operating that day)

And on the return leg:
IN: East Croydon - didn't open (???)
OUT: Surrey Quays - opened
IN: Surrey Quays - opened
OUT: King's Cross Underground - opened
IN: King's Cross - gates were already open
OUT: Cambridge - opened

Quite surprised that the break of journey at Surrey Quays worked without the need to talk to gateline staff. Any explanation to the unusual gate functioning?
 

greatkingrat

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In my experience Super Off Peak tickets never work at Victoria. I believe this is because most Super Off Peak tickets are routed Thameslink Only and are not valid at Victoria, however in your case the ticket is Any Permitted so is valid via Victoria.
 

Paul Kelly

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Any explanation to the unusual gate functioning?
At Surrey Quays, maybe they have taken note of maniacmartin's complaints. At Victoria, maybe because the Super Off-Peak Day Return ticket type is used only on Thameslink flows, they reject it so they can have an extra check that it's not a ticket valid only on the Thameslink line through Farringdon.
 

maniacmartin

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Well, I am pleasantly surprised at the outcome. Perhaps London Overground are changing for the better
 
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