South Pennine ranger on TPE

neilboo

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A week ago on Sunday, me and the grandson were out and about on various trains within the ranger's boundary.
After arriving at Huddersfield, a 185 that the lad needs for haulage pulls in on a Manchester-Sheffield diversionary.
We got on expecting no trouble, but sometime later the guard does his ticket check and informs me my ranger isn't valid.
He'd said something about the route (I presumed he meant the diversionary route via Hudd and Wakefield Kirkgate), and I replied that it was a Manchester to Sheffield service and is valid on TPE, getting the 'rangers and rovers website' to show him on my phone.
He wasn't trying to charge me for a new ticket, but then insisted that the ranger isn't valid on the Hope valley as 'it doesn't stop at all those stations' - refering to the map.
I said the start and end stations are within the map and also the route taken (via Stockport normally) is wholly marked on the map.
He wasn't having any of it.
I'm sure he'd realised part way through that he was wrong, but wasn't willing to back track in front of half a dozen people.
I later contacted the TPEassist on twitter and despite showing my ticket to them, they couldn't offer an answer, refering me to an email address that 'should' get back to me within 20 days.

Does anyone else have a similar experience, or knowledge one way or another (while I await for the TPE bods to get back to me)?
 
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WesternLancer

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A week ago on Sunday, me and the grandson were out and about on various trains within the ranger's boundary.
After arriving at Huddersfield, a 185 that the lad needs for haulage pulls in on a Manchester-Sheffield diversionary.
We got on expecting no trouble, but sometime later the guard does his ticket check and informs me my ranger isn't valid.
He'd said something about the route (I presumed he meant the diversionary route via Hudd and Wakefield Kirkgate), and I replied that it was a Manchester to Sheffield service and is valid on TPE, getting the 'rangers and rovers website' to show him on my phone.
He wasn't trying to charge me for a new ticket, but then insisted that the ranger isn't valid on the Hope valley as 'it doesn't stop at all those stations' - refering to the map.
I said the start and end stations are within the map and also the route taken (via Stockport normally) is wholly marked on the map.
He wasn't having any of it.
I'm sure he'd realised part way through that he was wrong, but wasn't willing to back track in front of half a dozen people.
I later contacted the TPEassist on twitter and despite showing my ticket to them, they couldn't offer an answer, refering me to an email address that 'should' get back to me within 20 days.

Does anyone else have a similar experience, or knowledge one way or another (while I await for the TPE bods to get back to me)?
Not had this experience but it sounds like poorly trained staff.

I have had the opposite tho - staff who when presented with my Rover and me saying I need to pay an excess from boundary point have said words to the effect of 'these rovers and rangers are complicated and there are lots of them and I can never recall exactly what covers where so don't worry about it' - which I guess is the other side of the coin of poor training but combined with a more customer friendly attitude !

I also had a TPE guard let me use her train manchester to stalybridge when I had a Northern only Rover, asking her permission to board before getting on and offering to pay the single fare (as I wanted to make the move and didn't have time to nip back to the ticket office /TVM before her train left).

I'm always happy to pay any fare I owe, but those staff have a very positive attitude that reflects well on the industry. I suspect ticket validity training is not as good as it should be however, when considering the point made in the OP.
 

BHXDMT

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The Sunday diversions are routed via Fitzwilliam/Moorthorpe/Bolton-on-Dearne which isn't covered by the South Pennines Day Ranger, so I'd err on the side of not valid either way you look at it.

In reality, I'd probably accept it because I have no idea if it's actually valid in this situation or not.

Edit: Bold text added for clarity.
 
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neilboo

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The Sunday diversions are routed via Fitzwilliam/Moorthorpe/Bolton-on-Dearne which isn't covered by the South Pennines Day Ranger, so I'd err on the side of not valid either way.

In reality, I'd probably accept it because I have no idea if it's actually valid in this situation or not.
For me it's more, when the train takes it's normal Hope route, the vastly-bearded guard might be on again, and tell me the South Pennine route isn't valid, when there's no specific exemptions barring the XC Wakefield to Sheff.
 

BHXDMT

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For me it's more, when the train takes it's normal Hope route, the vastly-bearded guard might be on again, and tell me the South Pennine route isn't valid, when there's no specific exemptions barring the XC Wakefield to Sheff.
I mean in that situation, you'd be entirely correct so I wouldn't worry.

It's not unknown for them to reissue briefs/send out information about tickets where a customer has raised an issue so if you've emailed TPE then maybe something will come of it.
 

yorksrob

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The guard was talking out of the side of his hat. The ranger is valid on both the TPE routes and the route between Wakefield and Huddersfield.

TPE need to pull their finger out.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Like many TOCS, I am of the understanding that TPE staff get virtually zero training or refreshments of knowledge on these matters and guards managers are generally equally unknowledgeable and completely uninterested in whether their staff have accurate and up to date retail and ticket knowledge or not. The only interest seems to be whether they turn up for work and can open and close the doors. Anything else seems to be considered non-essential. As a result most staff knowledge is gained by their own research if interested, or by mess room chat / asking others / making it up if not.
 

neilboo

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Thanks for the reassurances and I'll carry on with what I thought was the correct actions as previous.
 

_toommm_

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The Sunday diversions are routed via Fitzwilliam/Moorthorpe/Bolton-on-Dearne which isn't covered by the South Pennines Day Ranger, so I'd err on the side of not valid either way.

In reality, I'd probably accept it because I have no idea if it's actually valid in this situation or not.
It’s a grey area as the only published routeing restriction is with XC between Sheffield and Wakefield Westgate. The average passenger would just see a train between Manchester and Huddersfield, then onto Sheffield; and the average passenger would be unaware that it was booked to pass through Moorthorpe. As such, I’m of the opinion that, as the diversion is used only a handful of times a year (minus the first and last departures in the week), that the route shouldn’t be questioned.
 

WesternLancer

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Raises a question (which must have a clear rule on) what happens when a train that would be scheduled to pass over a line clearly included in a Rover area of validity, is diverted over a route not included in that Rover/Ranger's ticket validity. Where such a route is wholly closed - and all services diverted for example, and no need for a bus replacement service to have been provided along the line of the original route - eg if there were no intermediate stations to serve for example - what the ticket holder is supposed to do. Common sense would suggest the passenger is entitled to travel on the diverted service even if that passes outside of the rover area (assuming that the TOC concerned honors the Rover / Ranger to start with).

I'm guessing a forum member will know what the official rule actually is.
 

_toommm_

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Would a South Pennines be valid on an EMR service between Wakefield and Sheffield out of curiosity?
Im on one now so I’ll test it tonight. One would think it is as it’s not been specifically called out; although I suspect it’s the case that EMR to Leeds is so few and far between that they were overlooked..
 

221129

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Isn't it generally the case that if a train is diverted on a temporary basis (e.g. due to engineering works) all ticket validities remain as if it had not been?
Only if an easement has been put in. If it is an unbooked diversion then you're correct however if it is an advertised diversion then no.
 

221129

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Raises a question (which must have a clear rule on) what happens when a train that would be scheduled to pass over a line clearly included in a Rover area of validity, is diverted over a route not included in that Rover/Ranger's ticket validity. Where such a route is wholly closed - and all services diverted for example, and no need for a bus replacement service to have been provided along the line of the original route - eg if there were no intermediate stations to serve for example - what the ticket holder is supposed to do. Common sense would suggest the passenger is entitled to travel on the diverted service even if that passes outside of the rover area (assuming that the TOC concerned honors the Rover / Ranger to start with).

I'm guessing a forum member will know what the official rule actually is.
It would surely depend on the timetable as advertised when the rover was purchased?
 

HSP 2

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Would a South Pennines be valid on an EMR service between Wakefield and Sheffield out of curiosity?
Looking at the GB Rail Rover guide it looks to be valid, the only non valid moves it mentions are Wakefield and Sheffield and return by XC and any GC trains.
IMG_1517.JPG IMG_1518.JPG
Hope this helps.
 

yorksrob

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The Sunday diversions are routed via Fitzwilliam/Moorthorpe/Bolton-on-Dearne which isn't covered by the South Pennines Day Ranger, so I'd err on the side of not valid either way.

In reality, I'd probably accept it because I have no idea if it's actually valid in this situation or not.
Regardless of the Sunday diversions, according to the OP, the guard has said that the ranger isn't valid on the Hope Valley. That is clearly wrong.
 

WesternLancer

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Im on one now so I’ll test it tonight. One would think it is as it’s not been specifically called out; although I suspect it’s the case that EMR to Leeds is so few and far between that they were overlooked..
EMR listed as a valid TOC on the NRES entry (which can occasionally be wrong but I'd expect it to be the passenger ' go to' source for info)
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pra5d5c70a040002003ffec51cbc6f81.aspx

Tho amusingly I don't think the map does shows the route that those EMR services actually take
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/promotions/South Pennines Day Ranger 3.pdf
 

BHXDMT

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Regardless of the Sunday diversions, according to the OP, the guard has said that the ranger isn't valid on the Hope Valley. That is clearly wrong.
I wasn't responding to that point in my first reply, and you'll find I did respond to it in a 2nd reply further down supporting the OP. But thanks.

EMR listed as a valid TOC on the NRES entry (which can occasionally be wrong but I'd expect it to be the passenger ' go to' source for info)
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pra5d5c70a040002003ffec51cbc6f81.aspx

Tho amusingly I don't think the map does shows the route that those EMR services actually take
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/promotions/South Pennines Day Ranger 3.pdf
EMR are included because it's valid on their Hope Valley services from Sheffield to Manchester. I'd say, much like XC, it wouldn't be valid because their services also go via Moorthorpe. But given there is no exception written down who knows.

Like many TOCS, I am of the understanding that TPE staff get virtually zero training or refreshments of knowledge on these matters and guards managers are generally equally unknowledgeable and completely uninterested in whether their staff have accurate and up to date retail and ticket knowledge or not. The only interest seems to be whether they turn up for work and can open and close the doors. Anything else seems to be considered non-essential. As a result most staff knowledge is gained by their own research if interested, or by mess room chat / asking others / making it up if not.
Re: Zero training, the mountain of revenue related paperwork (ticket types, validities, all rovers valid on TPE, revenue policies, concessions, etc) I have in my drawer would disagree. And I joined as a qualified Conductor, new Conductors get even more training than I did. Re: refreshers, you're probably correct, and some people have been on the job years which doesn't help.
 
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WesternLancer

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I wasn't responding to that point in my first reply, and you'll find I did respond to it in a 2nd reply further down supporting the OP. But thanks.



EMR are included because it's valid on their Hope Valley services from Sheffield to Manchester. I'd say, much like XC, it wouldn't be valid because their services also go via Moorthorpe. But given there is no exception written down who knows.



Re: Zero training, the mountain of revenue related paperwork (ticket types, validities, all rovers valid on TPE, revenue policies, concessions, etc) I have in my drawer would disagree. And I joined as a qualified Conductor, new Conductors get even more training than I did. Re: refreshers, you're probably correct, and some people have been on the job years which doesn't help.
EMR are included because it's valid on their Hope Valley services from Sheffield to Manchester. I'd say, much like XC, it wouldn't be valid because their services also go via Moorthorpe. But given there is no exception written down who knows.

Sorry - of course, talk about me missing the obvious! Will be interesting to see when tooommm tests it out later with EMR.
 

_toommm_

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EMR are included because it's valid on their Hope Valley services from Sheffield to Manchester. I'd say, much like XC, it wouldn't be valid because their services also go via Moorthorpe. But given there is no exception written down who knows.

Sorry - of course, talk about me missing the obvious! Will be interesting to see when tooommm tests it out later with EMR.
I certainly won’t be seeking out the guard though! The last few times I’ve used the EMR extensions to Leeds I’ve not had my ticket checked from Sheffield when I’ve been on advances so my adventure may not be very fruitful.
 

NoMorePacers

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I certainly won’t be seeking out the guard though! The last few times I’ve used the EMR extensions to Leeds I’ve not had my ticket checked from Sheffield when I’ve been on advances so my adventure may not be very fruitful.
In the other direction it seems to be quite a contrast. I’ve been checked before Wakefield Westgate before!
 

neilboo

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Would a South Pennines be valid on an EMR service between Wakefield and Sheffield out of curiosity?
I've done the Sunday Leeds-Sheffield HST run a couple of times. I'm sure I've had my ticket checked with no problems.
And, as mentioned above, although not being on the specified route that the EMR takes, the ranger isn't excluded in the map area or the start and end points that I used the EMR. Obviously different if I'd tried to get off or on at the intermediate stations along the excluded Lee-Sheff line.
 

Djgr

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I think it is clear from various maps from various reputable sources that this is a complete TPE staff member fail.
 

robbeech

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For clarity this is NOT valid on EMR services between Sheffield and Wakefield as they are booked on a route that is not covered by the map the ticket is valid for. There doesn't have to be a specific exemption, the exemption is that it isn't on the map.
I'd advise Tom not to use this service as if you have a ticket check, you will possibly require a new ticket or worse.
 

_toommm_

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For clarity this is NOT valid on EMR services between Sheffield and Wakefield as they are booked on a route that is not covered by the map the ticket is valid for. There doesn't have to be a specific exemption, the exemption is that it isn't on the map.
I'd advise Tom not to use this service as if you have a ticket check, you will possibly require a new ticket or worse.
Fair point well made - I was only going on it really for the slam doors and this thread popped up afterwards. There are of course other (more safe) options.
 

WesternLancer

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For clarity this is NOT valid on EMR services between Sheffield and Wakefield as they are booked on a route that is not covered by the map the ticket is valid for. There doesn't have to be a specific exemption, the exemption is that it isn't on the map.
I'd advise Tom not to use this service as if you have a ticket check, you will possibly require a new ticket or worse.
what''s the betting (many) EMR staff would happily accept it however!
 

robbeech

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what''s the betting (many) EMR staff would happily accept it however!
Fully agree. Either because they don’t know or they don’t mind. And it’s not limited to this route. However, not recommended to try it, and not recommended for me to suggest trying it.
 

323235

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I wasn't responding to that point in my first reply, and you'll find I did respond to it in a 2nd reply further down supporting the OP. But



EMR are included because it's valid on their Hope Valley services from Sheffield to Manchester. I'd say, much like XC, it wouldn't be valid because their services also go via Moorthorpe. But given there is no exception written down who knows.



Re: Zero training, the mountain of revenue related paperwork (ticket types, validities, all rovers valid on TPE, revenue policies, concessions, etc) I have in my drawer would disagree. And I joined as a qualified Conductor, new Conductors get even more training than I did. Re: refreshers, you're probably correct, and some people have been on the job years which doesn't help.
I wasn't responding to that point in my first reply, and you'll find I did respond to it in a 2nd reply further down supporting the OP. But thanks.



EMR are included because it's valid on their Hope Valley services from Sheffield to Manchester. I'd say, much like XC, it wouldn't be valid because their services also go via Moorthorpe. But given there is no exception written down who knows.



Re: Zero training, the mountain of revenue related paperwork (ticket types, validities, all rovers valid on TPE, revenue policies, concessions, etc) I have in my drawer would disagree. And I joined as a qualified Conductor, new Conductors get even more training than I did. Re: refreshers, you're probably correct, and some people have been on the job years which doesn't help.
I wasn't responding to that point in my first reply, and you'll find I did respond to it in a 2nd reply further down supporting the OP. But thanks.



EMR are included because it's valid on their Hope Valley services from Sheffield to Manchester. I'd say, much like XC, it wouldn't be valid because their services also go via Moorthorpe. But given there is no exception written down who knows.



Re: Zero training, the mountain of revenue related paperwork (ticket types, validities, all rovers valid on TPE, revenue policies, concessions, etc) I have in my drawer would disagree. And I joined as a qualified Conductor, new Conductors get even more training than I did. Re: refreshers, you're probably correct, and some people have been on the job years which doesn't help.
Clearly therefore it's a matter of how much information some staff retain.
 

yorksrob

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It's a curious one though.

The map shows a line between Wakefield Westgate and Sheffield. We know that in all likelihood, a train going non-stop from Sheffield to Wakefield Westgate won't be going via Barnsley, but is it reasonable to expect a normal to know that ? I suggest not.
 

robbeech

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It shows a line to Kirkgate via Barnsley. There’s no direct mapped line to Westgate without a reversal.
 

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