South Wales Echo Article: 'I Paid £7 More For Train Ticket Taking A Shorter Journey'

[Modron]

It might be on Wales Online as well...

One of their journalists, Laura Clements, recently took a train from Ninian Park to Swansea and was asked to pay £19.10 for a return ticket.

Laura commented:

Walking the short distance to the bus stop, getting on Cardiff Bus' 95 service and then travelling for six minutes away from Swansea towards Cardiff Central is, according to Google, quicker than waiting for the next direct train. Most people would skip the bus part and just walk to Cardiff Central.

Anyone preferring to wait, sitting on the metal benches with a view of weeds and the top of the Cardiff City Stadium, for one of the few direct services every day which travel up to Pontyclun and Llanharan before rejoining the mainline, would only be able to watch as the next mainline service to Swansea speeds past on the parallel railway line about 20m away.

They would also find themselves about £7 less well off than if they walked to Cardiff Central.

While a return from Cardiff to Swansea is just £12.20 at peak time, a return from the train station closer to Swansea - Ninian Park - costs £19.10 - both on the nationalrail.co.uk website.

That is a more than 50% hike for the privilege of having a shorter journey - and a long wait looking at the back of Vincent Tan's red stand at the stadium.

The distance between Cardiff and Ninian Park is only a mile, takes just five minutes, and would cost just £2.60 if you were to take a train.

The same return ticket from Cardiff Central to Swansea is £15.

Source: South Wales Echo/Wales Online https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/i-pay-7-more-train-15820424

The anomaly seems to be due to past zonal systems and fare subsidies.

I'm sure that other similar anomalies exist across the network?

 

[Llanigraham]

Off peak return Cardiff - Swansea is £11.80,

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Anytime Day Return fare from Ninian Park to Swansea (via Cardiff) is indeed £19.10. The Off Peak Day Return is £18.10.
From Cardiff Central, the fares are £12.20 and £11.80 respectively.
Ninian Park-Cardiff Central is £2.80 Anytime Day Return.
All on brfares.

 

[krus_aragon]

I expect the anomaly also relates to past fares competition between FGW and ATW on the South Wales Mainline: GWR introduced cheaper TOC-only tickets, ATW reduced the inter-available ticket price in response.

 

[BigCj34]

Is there any possibility a split-ticketing website could show tickets where money can be saved by legitimately stopping short? Or would this a much harder task than creating a split ticketing website ever was?

If we're going to go super complicated, it could comprise of split-tickets which might include journey segments that involve travelling short between destinations. So if travelling from A to D, with tickets from A-B, B-C, and then X-Y which includes the segment C-D?

 

[Modron]

Is there any possibility a split-ticketing website could show tickets where money can be saved by legitimately stopping short? Or would this a much harder task than creating a split ticketing website ever was?

If we're going to go super complicated, it could comprise of split-tickets which might include journey segments that involve travelling short between destinations. So if travelling from A to D, with tickets from A-B, B-C, and then X-Y which includes the segment C-D?

Could be a good idea, although it would need the support and compliance of the various TOCs.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I expect the anomaly also relates to past fares competition between FGW and ATW on the South Wales Mainline: GWR introduced cheaper TOC-only tickets, ATW reduced the inter-available ticket price in response.

Yet people still moan that the railways are expensive and not competitive. Yet when a TOC price war leads to cheaper fares and old fashioned competition they still moan. Same situation occurs on the Brighton Mainline. You just cannot win.

Is there any possibility a split-ticketing website could show tickets where money can be saved by legitimately stopping short? Or would this a much harder task than creating a split ticketing website ever was?

If we're going to go super complicated, it could comprise of split-tickets which might include journey segments that involve travelling short between destinations. So if travelling from A to D, with tickets from A-B, B-C, and then X-Y which includes the segment C-D?

Or why not just simplify the fares so we do not have all of these anomolies in the first place.

 

[yorkie]

Is there any possibility a split-ticketing website could show tickets where money can be saved by legitimately stopping short?

No. It would never get accredited. And it could be used by pricing managers to determine which fares they should increase to stop people getting good value fares

Or would this a much harder task than creating a split ticketing website ever was?

It has been done but if it was released it would be used against us.

Or why not just simplify the fares so we do not have all of these anomolies in the first place.

Feel free to create a thread with your proposals, including your methodology and pricing.

So far I am not aware of anyone who has come up with a workable proposal.

Note that I will object if it results in unfair fare rises.

 

[Kite159]

Looking at RTT there are two trains from Cardiff which call at Ninian Park before continuing towards Swansea (05:35 Cardiff - Milford Haven, 06:39 Cardiff - Pembroke Dock, with 2 services back from Swansea which call at that station). Therefore the bulk of passengers on Ninian Park - Swansea tickets will be going via Cardiff.

 

[superalbs]

Same situation occurs on the Brighton Mainline. You just cannot win.

Yes in which GTR competes with...themselves!

 

[whhistle]

Why not just board at the closer station and get a return from the further station - tell the guard you're going back there.
Granted, not everyone would know about the less expensive fare, but meh... what are you going to do?!

 

[Kite159]

Why not just board at the closer station and get a return from the further station - tell the guard you're going back there.
Granted, not everyone would know about the less expensive fare, but meh... what are you going to do?!

Because if you don't time it for one of the 3 services which call at Ninian Park from the Bridgend direction, your plan comes unstuck when you go via Cardiff on the way back, as your ticket validity will end.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

It might be on Wales Online as well...

One of their journalists, Laura Clements, recently took a train from Ninian Park to Swansea and was asked to pay £19.10 for a return ticket.

Laura commented:


The anomaly seems to be due to past zonal systems and fare subsidies.

I'm sure that other similar anomalies exist across the network?

Yes, that's why I book to Sheffield when I'm going to Doncaster, as it's half the price, even though it's about 50% further.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Do you think she'll be able to claim the difference back under this:

We will provide accurate, timely and up-to-date details of fares at the point of purchase to help you to identify our cheapest prices. If you discover that a cheaper product was available on the day you purchased your ticket for the exact same journey, you will be entitled to a refund of the difference in cost within 28 days from the date of travel on your ticket.

https://tfwrail.wales/lowest-available-fare

 

[tiptoptaff]

Do you think she'll be able to claim the difference back under this:



https://tfwrail.wales/lowest-available-fare

No as she was sold the split, and that is the cheapest way to do it.

The article also lists Pontyclun and Llanharan as being off the mainline. As with all Trinity Mirror "journalists" in South Wales, the author is absolutely clueless. The sister rag, WalesOnline, is somewhat of a national joke to Welsh residents, for it's very poor quality of writing and reporting, and it's very biased and opinionated articles.

Ninian Park isn't really a closer station either, as, apart from a few times a day, you have to travel via Cardiff Central. And thus, is further away from Swansea.

 

[Jurg]

Yet people still moan that the railways are expensive and not competitive. Yet when a TOC price war leads to cheaper fares and old fashioned competition they still moan.

Is the reduced return fare that was introduced between Cardiff and Swansea cheaper than the fare before the introduction of competition? It would be interesting to see a comparison, taking into account inflation.

Either way, your argument seems somewhat flawed. "Competition" may in some cherry-picked instances have given passengers a short-term "win", but this is set against a long-term pattern of regular above-inflation price rises. We all know which way the tide is going.

 

[Envoy]

Surely, with capacity issues on Transport for Wales’ trains, it is not in their interests to reduce fares below those of GWR for people travelling between Newport & Swansea? If anything, GWR should be cheaper than Transport for Wales between Newport & Swansea as they surely have the capacity to shift the people with their 9 & 10 coach trains? The people who are travelling to/from places west of Swansea really have no choice but to be on Transport for Wales’ trains - as do those using intermediate stations and those heading up The Marches or going up the Gloucester line. I would also like to see priority boarding at Cardiff Central for passengers going west of Swansea. It is ridiculous that people going from Cardiff to Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath & Swansea board their 2 & 3 coach trains - with people standing when there might be a Class 800 GWR train a few minutes behind with enough space for these people.

Talking of the fares: we have all this stuff about the wonderful forthcoming Metro yet Transport for Wales can’t even have fares that that are fair on the present system. Anybody travelling from a Cardiff suburban station - such as Heath Halt - will find that the through ticket price to Swansea is about £2 dearer than buying separate tickets with the split being at Cardiff Central. How crazy is that? They keep harping on about all the traffic congestion in the city yet don’t have a system of fair pricing that would encourage people to use the local rail system to reach Central for onward travel. Another example is a pay on the day (weekday) return from Cardiff Central to Swindon leaving on the 9.25am GWR train. Try doing that as a through ticket from say Waungron Park (WNG)- a station 2 miles out in west Cardiff and the price rises massively.

Try typing Bristol Airport into the national rail website and up come through fares from wherever including the bus link from Temple Meads. Try typing in Cardiff Airport and you will find that it does not exist. Then try XCF and you will get Cardiff Airport or RIA for Rhoose = the station that is 1 mile away with a bus link that meets the trains. (There website implies it is a bus only service called Cardiff Air Bus but this is nothing to do with the bus from Cardiff Central).

Now try these as off peak day return:> CDF > RIA (Rhoose station) =£6.20; CDF > XCF - which presumably includes the short bus link from Rhoose station into the airport = £8 return. Now try this - SWA > RIA = £8.70 return; SWA > XCF = £24.60 return. So, a person travelling to the airport from Cardiff pays just £1.80 to travel both ways on the bus between Rhoose station and the Airport terminal whilst someone from Swansea doing the same thing must pay a whopping £15.70 for this 1 mile bus ride.

It really beggars belief as to what the hell is going on. Cardiff Airport is owned by the Welsh Government who now control Transport for Wales. What are these people doing all day - drinking tea perhaps? How can they allow these anomalies to happen?

 

[Furryanimal]

For years,while travelling from Cwmbran to anywhere west of Cardiff I have booked to Cardiff then out again.Its cheaper-although in some instances the difference is not as great as it used to be.The lack of an off peak ticket being available from Cwmbran continues to rankle with me.
If the bus service from Cardiff to Cwmbran didn't end so early or ran on Sunday I would never get a train to Cardiff.I travel for free on the bus!

 

[Dai Corner]

Then try XCF and you will get Cardiff Airport or RIA for Rhoose = the station that is 1 mile away with a bus link that meets the trains. (There website implies it is a bus only service called Cardiff Air Bus but this is nothing to do with the bus from Cardiff Central).

Are you sure XCF isn't the T9 bus from Cardiff to the airport?

There is a RIA to XCF fare £9.70 Anytime Single and the airport website says the shuttle bus is £1.

 

[delt1c]

Privatisation at its best

 

[yorkie]

Ninian Park isn't really a closer station either, as, apart from a few times a day, you have to travel via Cardiff Central. And thus, is further away from Swansea.

I don't agree that "Ninian Park isn't really a closer station"; the shortest route is direct, avoiding Cardiff and there are limited direct trains calling at Ninian Park before proceeding to Cardiff Central.

It's like saying Belper isn't a closer station to Chesterfield than Derby. Clearly this would be incorrect!

But, regardless of that, it is permitted to travel on a ticket from Swansea to Cardiff finishing short at Ninian Park, and it's also permitted to travel on a ticket from Swansea to Ninian Park via Cardiff.

And someone wishing to travel from Swansea to Ninian Park via Cardiff is best off purchasing a combination of two tickets for this journey (which is also permitted, and there are accredited booking sites that will offer such combinations, much to the dislike of some anti-passenger individuals).

Walk-up inter-available fares from one city to another, are usually the same regardless of whether you go to/from a main station or a suburban station nearby (e.g. Five Ways to Burley Park will be the same price as Birmingham Stns to Leeds) , due to fares clustering (some people want to get rid of fares clustering, in the mistaken belief that this would reduce anomalies, but in reality it would probably increase the number of anomalies of the sort we see here).

 

[OwlMan]

XCF is the Air Bus from Cardiff not the bus from Rhoose

FromiKB
Cardiff International Airport
Interchange station: Rhoose Cardiff International Airport
The shuttlebus operating between Rhoose Cardiff International Airport station and the airport is now chargeable. Buses are frequent and timed to connect with train services. The journey time is approximately 7 minutes.
The operator is New Adventure Travel and the contact details are:
New Adventure Travel 02920616589
Cardiff Airport 01446 711111
Stopping arrangements
Stops at all recognised bus stops on the line of route. Provides continued provision to/from MOD St Athan Hail
Timetable
To the Airport – Service departs Rhoose Station hourly at 16 minutes past the hour
To the Station – Service departs the airport hourly at 9 minutes to the hour
Fares
Adult Child
Single
£1.00 £0.50
Return
£1.50 £1.00
Concessionary travel – free for holders of Welsh Concessionary Bus Passes

Cardiff International Airport via Cardiff
Interchange station: Cardiff Central
Bus link from Cardiff Central station to Cardiff International Airport.
Fares
Through fares may be issued by adding the add-on amounts to fares set by GWR and RWB only.
Add-on amounts
Single - £5.00 Adult, £2.50 Child
Day Return - £8.00 Adult, £4.00 Child
Period Return - £8.00 Adult, £4.00 Child
Fares are also available in the reverse direction.
Through Season tickets are not available.
Ticketing
Destination name & NLC: Cardiff Air Bus H717
Discounts
Normal Child discounts apply.
Railcard discounts apply to the rail element only.
No discounts apply for Privilege Travel and Inter-Rail Travel. Holders should be advised to book rail tickets to/from the connecting station and purchase bus tickets separately from the bus operator.
Refunds
Normal arrangements apply.
Services
Operated by First Bus Cymru. Service operates every 20 minutes to/from the airport starting at 04.10 until 23.40.
CARDIFF AIRPORT (terminal bus stop), HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS (Port Road bus stop opposite hotel), Port Road, CARDIFF AIRPORT TRAVELODGE (Port Road bus stop opposite Cwm Ciddy Inn), Port Road (A4050), PREMIER INN (Port Road bus stop), Culverhouse Cross, Grangetown Link Road, CARDIFF BAY (The Red Dragon Centre, Hemingway Road), Hemingway Road, Lloyd George Avenue, Herbert Street, Customhouse Street, CARDIFF CITY CENTRE (bus stop opposite rear of Marriott Hotel, Customhouse Street), St Mary Street, Wood Street, CARDIFF BUS and CENTRAL RAIL STATION (Wood Street bus stop), Tudor Street, Ninian Park Road, Leckwith Road (B4267), Grangetown Link Road (A4232), Culverhouse Cross, Port Road (A4050), PREMIER INN (Port Road bus stop), Port Road (A4050), Port Road(A4226), Weycock Cross, CARDIFF AIRPORT TRAVELODGE (Port Road; opposite Cwm Ciddy Inn), Port Road (A4226), Port Road, HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS (main entrance), Airport access roads to/from CARDIFF AIRPORT
Accompanied animals and articles
Hand luggage only. Accompanied dogs may be conveyed on the buses at the discretion of the driver.

 

[yorkie]

No as she was sold the split, and that is the cheapest way to do it.

The journey she made was Ninian Park to Swansea (direct) then Swansea to Cardiff on the return portion. She requested a return from Cardiff to Swansea, which is valid for starting short at Ninian Park.

She asked for the cheapest valid ticket, but her legitimate request was denied.

Instead of selling the requested ticket, the Guard incorrectly attempted to sell a more expensive ticket, which is a clear breach of the Ticketing Settlement Agreement.

When the customer insisted on purchasing the ticket from Cardiff, the Guard insisted she must also purchase another additional ticket for an additional journey which she did not make.

To be clear, the Guard acted illegally and brought the company into disrepute. The passenger has a valid case against TfW.

 

[Dai Corner]

XCF is the Air Bus from Cardiff not the bus from Rhoose

Thanks for the confirmation.

By the way, iKB is out of date as the service is now the Traws Cymru branded T9 operated by New Adventure Travel (NAT). Through fares are available but not calculated as the Cardiff Central fare plus an add-on any more. Timetables linked from this page https://www.natgroup.co.uk/service-area/cardiff

 

[Silverdale]

As I understand it, guards are only obliged to sell the full range of available tickets to passengers who have started their journey at a station where no ticket issuing facilities exist. Ninian Park is listed as a station with a ticket vending machine. The article doesn't mention why it wasn't used.

 

[Envoy]

Are you sure XCF isn't the T9 bus from Cardiff to the airport?

There is a RIA to XCF fare £9.70 Anytime Single and the airport website says the shuttle bus is £1.

XCF can’t be the T9 bus that goes out from Cardiff. Go on www.nationalrail.co.uk and put in for SWA > XCF and then click ‘details’ . It clearly states that you go from Swansea to Bridgend, change to the train for Rhoose and then do a 7 minute journey on the bus link. So, as I said earlier, the people from Swansea (& I guess all points west of Bridgend) are being charged £15.70 for this 1 mile return bus journey which the good people of Cardiff are only being charged the more reasonable £1.80. Obviously, if they read this, they should buy the rail ticket to RIA and then pay the bus driver the £1 or so.

I find it incredible that the Welsh Government spend millions of pounds buying an airport that unlike Bristol, does not appear on the national rail website when you type in ‘Cardiff Airport'. Then we have these amazing differences in the rail/bus link fare to this airport - depending whether you are coming from the west or the east. They can’t blame this on Arriva as they are now supposed to be in charge of Transport in Wales.

 

[krus_aragon]

Surely, with capacity issues on Transport for Wales’ trains, it is not in their interests to reduce fares below those of GWR for people travelling between Newport & Swansea?

This fares competition was a fair while back, perhaps a decade or more, in ATW's days. FGW/GWR introduced operator-only fares for the SWML stations they served, in order to get more revenue from ORCATS than on the inter-available tickets. ATW's response was to lower the price of the inter-available ticket to 10p or so less than the FGW one, to dissuade people from buying the FGW one.

The problem is that ATW only reduced the SWML fares that GWR competed on. Fares to stations only served by ATW (such as Ninian Park) stayed at the original price. Hence the odd price structure that TfW inherited.

TfW have said they will be restructuring fares on the NW Coast in the future. If other oddities such as this one are grumbled about enough, perhaps they'll find they need to deal with those too.

 

[yorkie]

As I understand it, guards are only obliged to sell the full range of available tickets to passengers who have started their journey at a station where no ticket issuing facilities exist. Ninian Park is listed as a station with a ticket vending machine. The article doesn't mention why it wasn't used.

Staff can't refuse to sell an Anytime Day Return, which is the ticket requested.

The ticket machine is card only (or at least was when I was there last year); if a customer wishes to pay by card when the machine was working then the staff could legitimately refuse to issue Railcard discounted or Off Peak tickets, but as as undiscounted Anytime Return was requested, this is a moot point.

 

[Silverdale]

The ticket machine is card only (or at least was when I was there last year); if a customer wishes to pay by card when the machine was working then the staff could legitimately refuse to issue Railcard discounted or Off Peak tickets, but as as undiscounted Anytime Return was requested, this is a moot point.

In such a situation, should staff equally refuse to sell the customer tickets from stations other than the one where they started their journey, which was the case here?

If the principle is that by paying on board when facilities exist to purchase beforehand, you can only get a plain vanilla ticket, it would be undermined if customers can gain a fruit flavour advantage by purchasing anytime tickets from other stations and/or by way of a combination of anytime tickets, get an effective discount of the plain vanilla fare.

 

[yorkie]

This fares competition was a fair while back, perhaps a decade or more, in ATW's days. FGW/GWR introduced operator-only fares for the SWML stations they served, in order to get more revenue from ORCATS than on the inter-available tickets. ATW's response was to lower the price of the inter-available ticket to 10p or so less than the FGW one, to dissuade people from buying the FGW one...

Indeed, see this from January 2007: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-may-be-the-losers-in-their-own-fares-war.11064/

Recently, First Great Western introduced a lower 'FGW Only' fare for SDR, CDR & weekly seasons for many journeys in South Wales where they operate journeys alongside Arriva TW. See: http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=705

As the controller of the fares in this region, Arriva were unable to "compete," by offering lower-priced "walk up" fares 'ATW Only' for the same journeys. However, Arriva have hit back by reducing the 'Any Permitted' fares, to about 10p BELOW the 'FGW Only' fares, making the 'FGW Only' ones totally pointless: http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/ViewContent.aspx?id=2474

This means that customers will now ask for the "old" ticket (now at a reduced price) and FGW will not get 100% of the revenue, but the revenue will be shared using the railway mechanism.

Swansea to Cardiff SDR is now £6.40 ('FGW Only' £6.50), the CDR £4.90 ('FGW Only' £5.00). First operates a coach service between Cardiff & Swansea priced at £6 rtn (see: http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/wales/swwales/shuttle/index.php) - so it seems First may have to reduce their coach fares too. Seems First may have scored an own goal and THEY will end up being the losers in the "fares war" THEY started.

In such a situation, should staff equally refuse to sell the customer tickets from stations other than the one where they started their journey, which was the case here?

If the principle is that by paying on board when facilities exist to purchase beforehand, you can only get a plain vanilla ticket, it would be undermined if customers can gain a fruit flavour advantage by purchasing anytime tickets from other stations and/or by way of a combination of anytime tickets, get an effective discount of the plain vanilla fare.

The principle is that only Anytime tickets can be bought on board, without Railcard discounts, if the customer was able to purchase their required ticket using their chosen payment method from their origin station.

It was not possible for the customer to purchase their chosen ticket from their origin station because it does not have a ticket office, and the ticket machine does not sell tickets from another station (ie. will not sell the required ticket).

As in common with many ticket machines, it also will not sell tickets paid for with cash or rail travel vouchers, though we do not know the method of payment the customer was using, but this is not relevant to this case so I do not understand why it is being brought up.