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South Wales electrification

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tbtc

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I would the majority of services working to Trerherbert,Rhymeny are running with doubled up units.

The same could be said for the Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare services although some services are worked by a single class 150.

The Ebbw Vale line has doubled up units on saturdays and sometimes on sundays.

Thanks

As I have pointed out before,Maesteg is to get a half hourly service. I have a sneaky feeling that common sense will prevail and that the wires will go to Swansea.

But as things are, its just an hourly DMU that you would save if you wired to Maesteg.

My priority would be to electrify enough (in the UK) to free up around 150 DMUs (replacing all of the Pacers plus allowing many 153s to be permanently attached to others)

Actually I wonder if the DfT aren't playing a rather sneaky game with regards to Swansea and electrification. By leaving it off the GWML electrification I wonder if they aren't trying to persuade the WAG to fund the wiring of that part of the route saving themselves some cash in the process, but if the WAG doesn't go for it for whatever reason, they are still open to reversing their decision in the future (by making part of the Valley Lines electrification perhaps). Maybe it's a bit too sneaky for them but I wouldn't be surprised if there are elements within the DfT that are hoping that the WAG are going step in and pay up for wiring to Swansea.

Agreed (see also the rumours about Crewe - Chester electrification in the next WCML franchise). With great power comes great responsibility, and potentially great cost...
 
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Rhydgaled

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Of course some of the freights between Margam and Llanwern could also use electric traction if Maragm yard and the relief lines east of Cardiff etc are wired.
Where are Theale and Westerleigh (or whatever the eastern destonations of the trains from the Robertston oil refinary near Milford Haven)? Also, where do the steel trains from Llanelli and Port Talbot go? Although Llanelli and Robertston will be beyond the wires, the freight-operator could probablly save alot of emmisions by running a 90 or 92 to Margam and putting the diesel loco on there for the trip out west (would still be a diesel under the wires from Margam to Briton Ferry, but that's probably alot less than if they remain diesel hauled for their entire journey).

As I have pointed out before,Maesteg is to get a half hourly service. I have a sneaky feeling that common sense will prevail and that the wires will go to Swansea.
I hope your sneaky feeling regarding Swansea is correct. Just a few months to go until the plan has to be signed-off though isn't it? I wonder if the extra Maesteg services will terminate at Bridgend or become extensions of one of the two Vale Of Glamorgan line services each hour. Certainly I don't support the idea of terminating the Swanline service at Port Talbot to allow the extra Maestegs to use the main line between Cardiff and Bridgend.

Actually I wonder if the DfT aren't playing a rather sneaky game with regards to Swansea and electrification. By leaving it off the GWML electrification I wonder if they aren't trying to persuade the WAG to fund the wiring of that part of the route saving themselves some cash in the process, but if the WAG doesn't go for it for whatever reason, they are still open to reversing their decision in the future (by making part of the Valley Lines electrification perhaps). Maybe it's a bit too sneaky for them but I wouldn't be surprised if there are elements within the DfT that are hoping that the WAG are going step in and pay up for wiring to Swansea.
In my opinion it is 2016-2018 or never. If it is not done then, doing it later would almost certainly incur the start-up costs and DaFT would have ordered their daft IEP bi-modes for the job. Of course the diesel engines could be taken out of the IEPs, but given the cost of procuring the diesel engines in the first place* I doubt that idea will be given much consideration. The IEPs will then mean parts of our Intercity network being run with diesel trains until 2050. If such poor-enviromental-thinking continues, life on earth might not have long to live by then. If the planned quantity of bi-modes is ordered, any prospect of Swansea electrification is probablly dead.

*Modern Railways' Informed Sources says £250,000 per engine. With the numbers from the consultation document (11 'electrics', 26 5-car bi-modes and 12 8-car bi-modes) that's £37,250,000 or £34,250,000 (depending on whether an 8-car bi-mode has 4 engines or 5). £2,750,000 of that is going just on emergency generators on 'electric' sets. DAFT!

My priority would be to electrify enough (in the UK) to free up around 150 DMUs (replacing all of the Pacers plus allowing many 153s to be permanently attached to others)
My first priority is to avoid a new fleet of Intercity DMUs. Intercity should go as electric as practical (the odd diesel loco would be required for infrequent extensions over slow routes, but the hourly (or greater) cores of the Intercity network should all be electrified). Replacing pacers is second on the list.

Crewe - Chester electrification in the next WCML franchise.
If that happens, then in my opinion ICWC should go all-pendolino (with the possible exception of the Pretendolino, or anything else electric-powered, lacking any form of diesel powerplant (or other unecessary heavy stuff) and well suited for Intercity work). It is a shame the class 57 thunderbirds have drifted away, since they would be needed to maintain the Holyhead and Bangor services. That would require the purchase of additional Pendolinos, but would release ICWC's class 221 fleet (which hopefully will become 7-car bi-modes). They in turn could release 5-car class 220 bi-modes from XC for Paddington to Worcester/Hereford and the Westbury semi-fasts (with bi-modes on the Cotswolds, the small fleet of 180s with GW could cover most, if not all, the extended semi-fasts to Exeter/Paignton).

With great power comes great responsibility, and potentially great cost...
As I've said before though, funding rail infrastructure is NOT WAG's responcibilty. There are (apparently) ways they can do it, but quite what these are I do not know as that is not devolved and so they don't get a slice of UK tax revenue for that purpose in their budget from Westminster.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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As I've said before though, funding rail infrastructure is NOT WAG's responcibilty. There are (apparently) ways they can do it, but quite what these are I do not know as that is not devolved and so they don't get a slice of UK tax revenue for that purpose in their budget from Westminster.

Quite true.
They are probably eyeing European money for the Valleys (Objective 1 or whatever it is now).
This might even be why the DfT-funded GW money currently runs out at Cardiff.
The WAG would have to apply for it.

On freight, none of the operators want electric haulage.
Class 92s are parked up/rusting away at Crewe when they could have been working on the WCML/ECML/GEML for the past 15 years.
Probably 4 out of 5 freights you pass on the WCML south are still class 66-hauled.
It will probably get worse as more freight is diverted away from London.
 

OxtedL

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I hope your sneaky feeling regarding Swansea is correct. Just a few months to go until the plan has to be signed-off though isn't it? I wonder if the extra Maesteg services will terminate at Bridgend or become extensions of one of the two Vale Of Glamorgan line services each hour. Certainly I don't support the idea of terminating the Swanline service at Port Talbot to allow the extra Maestegs to use the main line between Cardiff and Bridgend.

Is portion working too outlandish to work in South Wales?
 

anthony263

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Is portion working too outlandish to work in South Wales?

I am surprised nobody has mentioned this so far and yes there is nothing to stop say two class 315 attaching/detaching at Bridgend with 1 unit say running to Maesteg and the other to Swansea.

The platforms at Pencoed and Pontyclun will need to be extended though to accomodate a 6 carriage train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Where are Theale and Westerleigh (or whatever the eastern destonations of the trains from the Robertston oil refinary near Milford Haven)? Also, where do the steel trains from Llanelli and Port Talbot go? Although Llanelli and Robertston will be beyond the wires, the freight-operator could probablly save alot of emmisions by running a 90 or 92 to Margam and putting the diesel loco on there for the trip out west (would still be a diesel under the wires from Margam to Briton Ferry, but that's probably alot less than if they remain diesel hauled for their entire journey)..

Westerleigh is near Bristol you go over the westerleigh branch on the trains heading out of Bristol Parkway heading towards Swindon.

The westerleigh branch joins the mainline near Yate station.

I am not sure where Theale is located though.

There area a couple of short workings which run from Margam to Llanwern and there is a few steel trains which run to Dee Marsh which is near Wrexham.

Isn't there that train which goes from Margam/Llanwern to the channel Tunnel?
 

HSTEd

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I am surprised nobody has mentioned this so far and yes there is nothing to stop say two class 315 attaching/detaching at Bridgend with 1 unit say running to Maesteg and the other to Swansea.

The platforms at Pencoed and Pontyclun will need to be extended though to accomodate a 6 carriage train.

Would have to extend to 8 20m vehicles really so two Cl315s could use them.

As to freight not being electric, this is a result of all the end points of the freight routes being unelectrified and the modern freight companies being totally unwilling to swap locomotives or maintain dedicated terminal shunters.

There is also the issue that no practical electrodiesel in 25kV exists which can be used in the UK (only one I know of is the ALP-45DP). It is rather ironic that if we were using 3kV DC as standard now we could have electrodiesels with no extra equipment other than the pantograph.

This isn't helped by the current fragmentation of the industry or the lack of tax on railfreight diesel.
 

DXMachina

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Only way I can see for even remotely practical 25kv electro-diesels is to have a semi-towed vehicle with diesel multiple-working capability, a cab on one end, transformer & converters onboard and perhaps a single traction motor to defray its own weight

And a power coupling to the diesel engine it works in multiple with so it can power that unit's traction motors with the diesel engine turned off. Whether this would in any way be permissible under H&S, or practical in terms of extra weight on diesel away from the wires versus savings under wires.....
 

HSTEd

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Only way I can see for even remotely practical 25kv electro-diesels is to have a semi-towed vehicle with diesel multiple-working capability, a cab on one end, transformer & converters onboard and perhaps a single traction motor to defray its own weight

And a power coupling to the diesel engine it works in multiple with so it can power that unit's traction motors with the diesel engine turned off. Whether this would in any way be permissible under H&S, or practical in terms of extra weight on diesel away from the wires versus savings under wires.....

There is at most 5-10t extra tonnes of weight for the transformer gear.... Do-Do to the rescue! :D

(It has been done in other places, and we have made 1Co-Co1 work here before).
 

IanXC

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Actually I wonder if the DfT aren't playing a rather sneaky game with regards to Swansea and electrification. By leaving it off the GWML electrification I wonder if they aren't trying to persuade the WAG to fund the wiring of that part of the route saving themselves some cash in the process, but if the WAG doesn't go for it for whatever reason, they are still open to reversing their decision in the future (by making part of the Valley Lines electrification perhaps). Maybe it's a bit too sneaky for them but I wouldn't be surprised if there are elements within the DfT that are hoping that the WAG are going step in and pay up for wiring to Swansea.

In my opinion it is 2016-2018 or never. If it is not done then, doing it later would almost certainly incur the start-up costs and DaFT would have ordered their daft IEP bi-modes for the job. Of course the diesel engines could be taken out of the IEPs, but given the cost of procuring the diesel engines in the first place* I doubt that idea will be given much consideration. The IEPs will then mean parts of our Intercity network being run with diesel trains until 2050. If such poor-enviromental-thinking continues, life on earth might not have long to live by then. If the planned quantity of bi-modes is ordered, any prospect of Swansea electrification is probablly dead.

Quite true.
They are probably eyeing European money for the Valleys (Objective 1 or whatever it is now).
This might even be why the DfT-funded GW money currently runs out at Cardiff.
The WAG would have to apply for it.

I think there could be something in this, Swansea being inside the Objective One zone. Thats not to say that some funding would be required, although who is to say whether it is from Westminster or Cardiff Bay.

The problem with this is have DfT Infrastructure told DfT Rolling Stock what they're up to?! Or are we going to end up with IEP Bimode stock operating under the wires other than in Scotland?

If that happens, then in my opinion ICWC should go all-pendolino (with the possible exception of the Pretendolino, or anything else electric-powered, lacking any form of diesel powerplant (or other unecessary heavy stuff) and well suited for Intercity work).

I don't think the Pretendolino will make it to the end of the year with Virgin to be honest. Now that the new Pendolinos have been delivered (one of which is to replace 390033), I think its highly likely the set will be split up and maybe find its way to Greater Anglia or Chiltern (although thinking about it if FGW had waited they could have used some of it to extend their HSTs and avoid the costly Buffet conversions).
 

HSTEd

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I don't think the Pretendolino will make it to the end of the year with Virgin to be honest. Now that the new Pendolinos have been delivered (one of which is to replace 390033), I think its highly likely the set will be split up and maybe find its way to Greater Anglia or Chiltern (although thinking about it if FGW had waited they could have used some of it to extend their HSTs and avoid the costly Buffet conversions).

Wouldn't the HST rewiring be quite expensive/

I would think Greater Anglia or Chiltern are more likely, unless EC makes another go at the Lincoln stoppers to free up a current HST under-wires diagram.
 

Gareth Marston

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Funding S Wales Electrification

From a letter from WG Rail Unit dated 04 April 2012 in response to SARPA e mail to WG Transport Minister regarding using EU funds towards rail electrification.

"The WG has established strong outline business cases for both Valley Lines electrification and, in parallel the electrification of the GWML to Swansea. The Minister for Local Government and Communities is continuing discussions with the Secretary of State for Transport about UK Government funding for these priorities.

The WG has reminded the SoS for Transport that the responsibility for rail investment is non devolved. Funding our rail electrification priorities rest witht he UK Govt. To date. ESF in Wales has been used to bring additionality to WG priorities within our own budget responsibilites. There arr no plans to change this position.

At a recent meeting with the SoS for Wales, the Minister for LG&C discussed the potential of the UK Govt seeking connecting Europe funding to support the electrification of the GWML to Swansea. The Minister indicated his support for the UK Govt submitting a bid as the lead member state".
 

themiller

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As to freight not being electric, this is a result of all the end points of the freight routes being unelectrified and the modern freight companies being totally unwilling to swap locomotives or maintain dedicated terminal shunters.

There is also the issue that no practical electrodiesel in 25kV exists which can be used in the UK (only one I know of is the ALP-45DP). It is rather ironic that if we were using 3kV DC as standard now we could have electrodiesels with no extra equipment other than the pantograph.

What about the TRAXX with "Last Mile Diesel"?
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/traxx-uk-aimed-at-two-uk-franchises.html
I would have thought that it would have been ideal for this application of entering the non-electrified sidings at the end of a freight run, after all that is what it was designed for and the comment in the article says that re-design to fit the UK loading gauge would not be a problem.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Funding S Wales Electrification

From a letter from WG Rail Unit dated 04 April 2012 in response to SARPA e mail to WG Transport Minister regarding using EU funds towards rail electrification.

"The WG has established strong outline business cases for both Valley Lines electrification and, in parallel the electrification of the GWML to Swansea. The Minister for Local Government and Communities is continuing discussions with the Secretary of State for Transport about UK Government funding for these priorities.

The WG has reminded the SoS for Transport that the responsibility for rail investment is non devolved. Funding our rail electrification priorities rest witht he UK Govt. To date. ESF in Wales has been used to bring additionality to WG priorities within our own budget responsibilites. There arr no plans to change this position.

At a recent meeting with the SoS for Wales, the Minister for LG&C discussed the potential of the UK Govt seeking connecting Europe funding to support the electrification of the GWML to Swansea. The Minister indicated his support for the UK Govt submitting a bid as the lead member state".

Fascinating.
While this probably reflects the funding realities, pointing a gun at the DfT/Treasury and saying "stand and deliver" doesn't sound like a recipe for success!
Hopefully the business case (eg reducing the operating subsidy for the service) will make it happen.
Either way EU money might well be involved (but will take time to negotiate).
 

welshdragon

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Many interesting comments here about the future of the suburban lines that radiate out of Cardiff (coming from the Rhondda I don't refer to the Cardiff Valleys - the Valleys and Cardiff and geogaphically and cuturally very different).

What it needed here is forward thinking. Not something for which this country (not just the railways but everything) is very poor at. Since the introduction of 2nd generation dmus in 1987, there have nee overcrowding issues in many trains, exacerbated by 2-car rather then 3-car operation. This has improved in recent times tith the introduction of all-day 4-car operation on the Treherbert and Rhymney trains in particular.

With regard to Rhydgaled's propsal on stock, keep everything as 3-car or 4-car. The 1st generation dmus were 3-car, doubled up to 6 on Saturdays and weekday rush hours. With the price of fuel increasing by the week, it is highliy likely that even if electrification did not take place that passenger nunbers will increase. What is needed is forward planning to ensure that there is sufficient capacity to cover things not just as they are now, but into the future as demand inevitably increases.

Also bear in mind that Cardiff has its fare share of events at the Millenium stadium that attracts tens of thousands - capacity is needed.

Taking the longer view - electrify the whole network to Swansea including Ebbw Vale, Maesteg and the Vale of Glamorgan, not some half-hearted version with lots of diesel remaining. Further studies should also be undertaken for further openings to improve transportation across South Wales as well as the rest of the UK.
 

Rhydgaled

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Is portion working too outlandish to work in South Wales?
That's a good idea, I almost kicked myself for not thinking of it. The second Maesteg each hour could then also be the Swanline service. It wouldn't work with 315s though, portion working (like on the Cambrian) needs corridor connections between units in my opinion, in case passengers board the wrong portion they can 'change trains' while in motion.

Westerleigh is near Bristol you go over the westerleigh branch on the trains heading out of Bristol Parkway heading towards Swindon.

The westerleigh branch joins the mainline near Yate station.
Sounds like it won't be that far from the wires then, but proablly far enough (given that Margam to Robertston refinary would need to be diesel hauled anyway) to ensure these trains remain diesel hauled. :(
 

OxtedL

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That's a good idea, I almost kicked myself for not thinking of it. The second Maesteg each hour could then also be the Swanline service. It wouldn't work with 315s though, portion working (like on the Cambrian) needs corridor connections between units in my opinion, in case passengers board the wrong portion they can 'change trains' while in motion.
I agree, you probably wouldn't implement portion working until the Valleys until such a time as they had new stock. With electrification however, you could consider increasing frequency on the Swanline services and making them have Maesteg portions and thus try and reduce the number of diagrams/paths required.

You do end up with a likely massive over-provision of capacity on the quieter parts of the route as a result, however. Perhaps this would be a good argument for not going for what might be a standard fleet of 3-car trains and having some shorter ones. If a 1-car modern EMU was workable in practice, I'm sure South Wales could makes use of it, perhaps on the Bay shuttle, for train lengthening, and for portion working where demand might be low. I'm going to shut up now as this is drifting way beyond what is reasonable to wonder about at the present time.

Sounds like it won't be that far from the wires then, but proablly far enough (given that Margam to Robertston refinary would need to be diesel hauled anyway) to ensure these trains remain diesel hauled. :(
Electric freight might see an increase in the future, but this only becomes likely once we've seen the Midland main line and large parts of the remaining Strategic Freight Network wired up. That's not looking as far away as it once did, but still isn't imminent.
 

tbtc

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What about extending all platforms as far as Pontypridd to six/eight coaches (allowing for portion working beyond there)?

With great power comes great responsibility, and potentially great cost...

As I've said before though, funding rail infrastructure is NOT WAG's responcibilty. There are (apparently) ways they can do it, but quite what these are I do not know as that is not devolved and so they don't get a slice of UK tax revenue for that purpose in their budget from Westminster.

I was saying that *greater* power (i.e. above and beyond the current spending remit of the WAG)... the point being that its easy for politicians to demand greater powers, but they should be careful here or they may also end up with the responsibility of paying for things too (rather than Westminster/ Europe).
 

Rhydgaled

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With electrification however, you could consider increasing frequency on the Swanline services and making them have Maesteg portions and thus try and reduce the number of diagrams/paths required.
Exactly what I thought when I read the post that suggested portion working (I've been trying to come up with a post-electrification timetable for Cardiff - Swansea, which has an houly Swanline and 3 faster trains (the current Londons and Manchesters, plus a Bristol with a stop at Pyle) along with the current hourly Maesteg service). As I said though, that would require stock with corridor connections.
 

HSTEd

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What about the TRAXX with "Last Mile Diesel"?
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/traxx-uk-aimed-at-two-uk-franchises.html
I would have thought that it would have been ideal for this application of entering the non-electrified sidings at the end of a freight run, after all that is what it was designed for and the comment in the article says that re-design to fit the UK loading gauge would not be a problem.

That would only have 235hp at wheel on diesel power, which means it can't really haul any reasonable freight train for a significant distance, which is no use in the UK where it could be 20 miles between the end of the wire and the destination.
 

anthony263

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Exactly what I thought when I read the post that suggested portion working (I've been trying to come up with a post-electrification timetable for Cardiff - Swansea, which has an houly Swanline and 3 faster trains (the current Londons and Manchesters, plus a Bristol with a stop at Pyle) along with the current hourly Maesteg service). As I said though, that would require stock with corridor connections.

I have already been trying to come up witha timetble for a Swansea - Bristol TM emu service.

The only problem is that the Manchester trains would either have to be diverted via the Swansea district line or leave Swansea at 15-20 minutes past the hour and from Cardiff at 20 minutes past with Holyhead trains leaving Cardiff at 50 minutes past the hour.

There would not be any problems in southbound direction though and trains to Bristol TM are generally full even off peak so perhaps Maesteg having a direct service to Bristol TM attaching to the unit from Swansea @ Bridgend off peak would be a very good idea as it would be atractive to passengers.


The platforms on the Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare branches could be extended to accomodate 6 carriage trains if funds are available thats was one reason why I think they decided to only extend the platforms on those branches to 4 carriagesand the fact that there were not enough units to enable some services to run as 6 carriages during the peaks.

Another problem on the cardiff Valley lines is the lack of corridor connections particulary between the pacer units which must cause some loss of revenue when you have passengers traveling to/from stations which are unstaffed etc.
 

Gwenllian2001

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The platforms on the Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare branches could be extended to accomodate 6 carriage trains if funds are available thats was one reason why I think they decided to only extend the platforms on those branches to 4 carriagesand the fact that there were not enough units to enable some services to run as 6 carriages during the peaks.

Another problem on the cardiff Valley lines is the lack of corridor connections particulary between the pacer units which must cause some loss of revenue when you have passengers traveling to/from stations which are unstaffed etc.

Historically there was never a problem accomodating 6 carriages on the Valley Lines. It is where 'new' construction is involved that the problems arise. The platforms on the reopened Aberdare and Maesteg lines were only 2 car, to save money. They have since been extended to 4 car. The Vale of Glamorgan was 4 car from the beginning as are those on the Ebbw Vale line.

With one or two exceptions, most platforms in the area could comfortably take trains of eight carriages in the days of steam.

The lack of connection between pairs of Pacers does involve a loss of revenue, sometimes considerable e.g. between Grangetown and Barry.
 

CCF23

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I would very much to see 315s head to the Valley lines, after they become redundant after Crossrail is introduced. The 314s in Glasgow could also become available around the same time and these units are in the process of getting a refurbishment.
 

tbtc

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I would the majority of services working to Trerherbert,Rhymeny are running with doubled up units.

The same could be said for the Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare services although some services are worked by a single class 150

Having now had the chance to check my figures:

  • Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare - Barry Island/ Bridgend - fifteen units
  • Treherbert - Cardiff - five units
  • Coryton - Radyr - three units
  • Rhymney - Penarth - nine units
  • Cardiff Bay shuttle - one unit (obviously!)

= 33 diagrams (off peak).

...so, if its fair to assume that all the Trerherbert/ Rhymeny units are generally doubled up, and (say) half of the Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare units are doubled up then you have

  • Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare - Barry Island/ Bridgend - twenty two units
  • Treherbert - Cardiff - ten units
  • Coryton - Radyr - still three units
  • Rhymney - Penarth - eighteen units
  • Cardiff Bay shuttle - still one unit

= 54 units. Add in (say) 10% to cover maintenance/ spares/ peak diagrams and you are talking sixty DMUs that can be freed up. That's almost half of the Pacers in the UK that could be scrapped just by doing the Valley services through Queen Street (without worrying about Maesteg/ Ebbw Vale etc).

There are some shortish sections elsewhere that give a better "DMUs replaced per mile electrified" ratio (partly due to the hourly sections to Bridgend/ Rhymney), but this is by far the best large scale scheme to concentrate electrification teams on.

Given the hourly frequency on many/most Pacer routes that Northern run, you'd have to electrify *significantly* more track in Lancashire/ Yorkshire to get anywhere near sixty DMUs "freed".
 

Rhydgaled

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Having now had the chance to check my figures:

  • Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare - Barry Island/ Bridgend - fifteen units
  • Treherbert - Cardiff - five units
  • Coryton - Radyr - three units
  • Rhymney - Penarth - nine units
  • Cardiff Bay shuttle - one unit (obviously!)

= 33 diagrams (off peak).

Given your 10% 'spares' figure, and that ATW have 30 Pacers, that would be 27 Pacers and 6 150s. Given the doubling-up, I think that confirms your earlier assumption that ATW could shed all their Pacers, and 8 150s to replace FGW's Pacers, without needing to wire Ebbw Vale and Maesteg. I still hope they are included too though. There are many lines in Wales that could use service improvments though, so any more freed up in the Valleys (ideally swapped for 156s, if any TOC uses 156s where 150s would be more appropriate) should stay in Wales.
 

Gareth Marston

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33 diagrams sounds about right for Valley lines and i agree that it gives the best Pacer chuck out opportunity per mile of wire in the UK.

I've seen Pacers on Swanline and even further west plus to Cheltenham - 2 150's are on the Bidston line and and the Conwy Valley/HoW/Tenby locals plus some Fishguards all use 153's/150's depending on season. Potentially ATW could retain the 150's and get shot of the 153's.

But how much usage is left in 150's? There 30 years old in 2016 35 in 2021.

165/166 cascade will flush Pacers out of West Country once GWML is electrified.
 

SC318250

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Class 334 could be used for the Valleys to allow Scotrail to have more Class 380 or similar....

(Probably within 10 years, in Scotland, Class 314 will be finished, and the Class 318 wont be far off retirement, with the Class 320 a few years behind the Class 318)
 

ChiefPlanner

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Having now had the chance to check my figures:

  • Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare - Barry Island/ Bridgend - fifteen units
  • Treherbert - Cardiff - five units
  • Coryton - Radyr - three units
  • Rhymney - Penarth - nine units
  • Cardiff Bay shuttle - one unit (obviously!)

= 33 diagrams (off peak).

...so, if its fair to assume that all the Trerherbert/ Rhymeny units are generally doubled up, and (say) half of the Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare units are doubled up then you have

  • Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare - Barry Island/ Bridgend - twenty two units
  • Treherbert - Cardiff - ten units
  • Coryton - Radyr - still three units
  • Rhymney - Penarth - eighteen units
  • Cardiff Bay shuttle - still one unit

= 54 units. Add in (say) 10% to cover maintenance/ spares/ peak diagrams and you are talking sixty DMUs that can be freed up. That's almost half of the Pacers in the UK that could be scrapped just by doing the Valley services through Queen Street (without worrying about Maesteg/ Ebbw Vale etc).

There are some shortish sections elsewhere that give a better "DMUs replaced per mile electrified" ratio (partly due to the hourly sections to Bridgend/ Rhymney), but this is by far the best large scale scheme to concentrate electrification teams on.

Given the hourly frequency on many/most Pacer routes that Northern run, you'd have to electrify *significantly* more track in Lancashire/ Yorkshire to get anywhere near sixty DMUs "freed".

Very good working assumptions there , in my opinion.
 

Rhydgaled

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I've seen Pacers on Swanline and even further west plus to Cheltenham - 2 150's are on the Bidston line and and the Conwy Valley/HoW/Tenby locals plus some Fishguards all use 153's/150's depending on season. Potentially ATW could retain the 150's and get shot of the 153's.

But how much usage is left in 150's? There 30 years old in 2016 35 in 2021.

165/166 cascade will flush Pacers out of West Country once GWML is electrified.

The Pacers certainly do get outside the Valleys, but given there are 150s on the Valleys too I'd be supprised if you couldn't replace all the Pacers outside the valleys with 150s after valleys electrification.

However, as accurate as tbtc's figure of 33 valleys diagrams sounds, there is no way ATW could release 54 units. That's because ATW have 31 (I think, wikipedia is the source though) 150s and, as you say, 150s run outside the valleys quite a bit, and you need spares for those services too. 54 units would be just 7 units short of the entire Pacer + 150 fleet with ATW. Take out the spares and that 7 units wouldn't leave many 150 diagrams.

As I see it, the Wales franchise should have:
  • At least 40 3-car, corridor-fitted, EMUs - for Valleys & Swanline, and prefrablly Cardiff - Cheltenham
  • 12(ish) class 150 (Swansea ValleyLines, Wrexham - Bidston & Conwy Valley)
  • 15(ish) class 156 (HOWL and Swansea - Pembrokeshire)
  • 3 67 + Mark 3 LHCS + DVT rakes (2 Holyhead - Cardiff expresses each way)
  • 24 class 158 (plus more ASAP) for Cambrian lines and Cardiff - Pembrokeshire express services (express means not via Swansea)
  • 2/6 Mark 2 LHCS rakes (reserve, brought out to deal with un-usally large passenger flows, across Wales not just Holyhead - Cardiff for rugby as now, or used on Manchester-Swansea/Carmarthen)
  • 27 class 175s (North Wales coast services and Manchester - Milford)

In other words:
  • All pacers gone in Valleys electrification
  • 150s reduced from 31 to 23 (-8 units, to release GW Pacers) in Valleys electrfication
  • 4 156 as replacment for 8 153s
  • 11 156 as replacement for 11 150s, reduces 150s to 12 and brings 156s to 15
 

tbtc

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It does seem odd that ATW (and Wales & West etc before them) never ran 156s - there's quite a jump up from a 150 to a 158.
 

ChiefPlanner

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I think the nearest was 155 sets on the Cardiff-Portsmouth - but transferred away in one of Regional Railways master plan shuffles. One Tom Clift being the Resources Manager around that time.
 
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