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South Wales 'Metro' updates

WelshBluebird

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The Metro plans suggest that the new developments NW of Cardiff - such as Plasdwr - could be served by a light rail/tram-train/tram system by re-building the former single track line that heads out to Cregiau from the City Line in Fairwater. What you say Gareth - about the City Line not having access to Cardiff Central surely presents major problem? Going onto the streets from the City Line would surely be dreadful compared to the situation we have now.

I note that the Metro plans also suggest re-building the Caerphilly to Newport line - presumably for a tram-train? The eastern portion of this line is I think, still used - for Machen quarry? It would certainly be a worthwhile link but surely, a similar problem to that at Cardiff would exist - getting into Newport station would involve joining the main line to go through the tunnel.

I can understand the aspirations of the Welsh Government to have a modern transport system - rather be dumped with 40 year old 315’s from England. I also note the fact that over in Bristol, they are having problems in getting Network Rail to re-build the Portishead line - with ever increasing costs and no action for years. (Bristol rejected trams due to mounting costs and the disruption it would cause to the road system as well as the fact that many services such as sewers and gas mains were under the roads). So, Bristol is going for ‘normal rail’ as it allows access into Temple Meads and they are hoping for a new service to Henbury - but, this is all being frustrated with no action.
Perhaps the best compromise would be 750 volt DC system for the Cardiff valleys - with stored battery power used to get in and out of Cardiff Central and thus retain the benefit of a segregated rail system whilst at the same time having new trains?

Bristol:>http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/we-can-prevent-gridlock-opening-859848

If you are bringing what Bristol has been doing into the picture, you have to mention MetroBus surely? The amount of upheaval and disruption in the city centre that has caused, for what, a glorified bus route?
 
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Del1977

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Bristol is an example of what not to do with an urban transport system. Whether through legacy issues, inaction, failed schemes, it must surely rank as having the worst urban public transport systems in the UK for a city of its size.
 

Domh245

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I've done some quick maths.

An M5000 tram only has 60 seats per train set, so 2x will only have 120 seats.

A class 150 has 124 seats per 2 car set, so a doubled up set will have 248 seats.

A 3 car class 195 has 200 seats per set, so a doubled up set will have 400 seats.

The maximum capacity that a LR system can offer is 24 * 120 = 2880 seats per hour.

The maximum capacity a HR system can offer is 16 * 400 = 6400 seats per hour.

Using the current rolling stock, the capacity offered is 3968 seats per hour.
Therefore the light rail will offer a drop in capacity even though it has a higher frequency.

Slight issue there though in that you've assumed that the LR solution will max out at 120 seats. The implied stock for the SWMetro is 50m, so already almost double the length of an M5000, so by default would offer 120 seats. They can then be doubled up based on the 100m platform length, so your seats/hour for the LR should be double, in which case it is about 1800 seats more per than the current provision per hour.

Interestingly though the seats/train length of the 3 car 195 is 2.8, whereas the M5000's is 2.1. It is also worth pointing out that your 400 seat train is 150m long, vs the 100m of 2xSWMetro stock
 

MarkyT

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I've done some quick maths.

An M5000 tram only has 60 seats per train set, so 2x will only have 120 seats.

A class 150 has 124 seats per 2 car set, so a doubled up set will have 248 seats.

A 3 car class 195 has 200 seats per set, so a doubled up set will have 400 seats.

The maximum capacity that a LR system can offer is 24 * 120 = 2880 seats per hour.

The maximum capacity a HR system can offer is 16 * 400 = 6400 seats per hour.

Using the current rolling stock, the capacity offered is 3968 seats per hour.
Therefore the light rail will offer a drop in capacity even though it has a higher frequency.

Who says they plan to use M5000s?

As I said earlier, the Taffs Well depot plan showed individual articulated units approximately 50m long in the sidings and maintenance building. It also showed the up platform at the adjacent station extended to a full 100m to match the down platform. That suggests TfW intends to run these 50m units in pairs, at least for some of the time. It is also interesting to note from the plan that segregation in the form of a new footbridge is to be retained at the station, not substitution by a level crossing, as widely used on Metrolink. That suggests that, on this section at least, heavy rail standards are to be maintained, which once again points towards a tram-train solution for th core Valley routes. It is noticeable there is some convergence between HR and LR vehicles in recent years. HR trains are becoming more 'tram like' in some respects, being lighter and incorporating articulation and continuous floors through wide gangways (e.g.Flirt), while some trams are gaining better crash resistance, multi-system power and signalling capabilities, and getting certification to interrun with HR traffic. This goes back to Tyne and Wear with their Metrocars derived from a popular contemporary German high floor tram design. T&W later got approval to run these over NR infrastructure under low voltage DC wires on the Sunderland extension. Vehicle interiors are a separate issue. A given floor area within a vehicle can be outfitted to whatever spec is desired. Many ostensibly HR vehicles today have very high density layouts indeed, optimised for quick boarding and maximum standing crush loads. TfLs Overground rolling stock is a good example of this. Equally tram-based vehicles COULD be outfitted with a more comfortable interior if used on longer distance routes, even incorporating first class seating, although I don't think that's very likely in this case!
 

158756

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I've done some quick maths.

An M5000 tram only has 60 seats per train set, so 2x will only have 120 seats.

A class 150 has 124 seats per 2 car set, so a doubled up set will have 248 seats.

A 3 car class 195 has 200 seats per set, so a doubled up set will have 400 seats.

The maximum capacity that a LR system can offer is 24 * 120 = 2880 seats per hour.

The maximum capacity a HR system can offer is 16 * 400 = 6400 seats per hour.

Using the current rolling stock, the capacity offered is 3968 seats per hour.
Therefore the light rail will offer a drop in capacity even though it has a higher frequency.

On short journeys what matters is total capacity rather than seated capacity. A M5000 can apparently take around 200, the same as a 150, and substantially more than a 142 (capacity 137 for the Northern examples at least).

So at 24tph trams could shift 9600 passengers per hour. And 24tph is probably on the low side of what could be achieved - Manchester manages to run up to 35 on it's busiest section.

The baseline has to be the current service - 12tph with a mixture of Sprinters and Pacers, and are they even all doubled up? If they are, and we assume a 50:50 split of stock, that gives a capacity of 4020 per hour. So trams could more than double current capacity.

A 3 car 195 will have a total capacity of 346. 692*12 = 8304. 692 *16 = 11072. So 6 car trains at 16tph could have more capacity than a tram system. But would the investment and subsidy be worth it for a slight improvement not likely to be needed any time in the near future. Following Manchester's example, you could do all sorts of things with a tram system before 2.4 times current capacity became inadequate. Certainly, whoever was running the show, it is unlikely that level of capacity would be forthcoming in the current franchise renewal.
 

cactustwirly

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On short journeys what matters is total capacity rather than seated capacity. A M5000 can apparently take around 200, the same as a 150, and substantially more than a 142 (capacity 137 for the Northern examples at least).

So at 24tph trams could shift 9600 passengers per hour. And 24tph is probably on the low side of what could be achieved - Manchester manages to run up to 35 on it's busiest section.

The baseline has to be the current service - 12tph with a mixture of Sprinters and Pacers, and are they even all doubled up? If they are, and we assume a 50:50 split of stock, that gives a capacity of 4020 per hour. So trams could more than double current capacity.

A 3 car 195 will have a total capacity of 346. 692*12 = 8304. 692 *16 = 11072. So 6 car trains at 16tph could have more capacity than a tram system. But would the investment and subsidy be worth it for a slight improvement not likely to be needed any time in the near future. Following Manchester's example, you could do all sorts of things with a tram system before 2.4 times current capacity became inadequate. Certainly, whoever was running the show, it is unlikely that level of capacity would be forthcoming in the current franchise renewal.

I'm pretty sure journey times of an hour are not considered short journeys.
Surely the class 195s require less investment than converting the lines to light rail?
 

Domh245

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Surely the class 195s require less investment than converting the lines to light rail?

195s replacing the existing fleet would be something of an easy & cheap solution, but would be somewhat short term thinking. Electrification of either kind (with all of the performance and environmental benefits it brings) is a more long term solution.
 

Gareth Marston

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On short journeys what matters is total capacity rather than seated capacity. A M5000 can apparently take around 200, the same as a 150, and substantially more than a 142 (capacity 137 for the Northern examples at least).

So at 24tph trams could shift 9600 passengers per hour. And 24tph is probably on the low side of what could be achieved - Manchester manages to run up to 35 on it's busiest section.

The baseline has to be the current service - 12tph with a mixture of Sprinters and Pacers, and are they even all doubled up? If they are, and we assume a 50:50 split of stock, that gives a capacity of 4020 per hour. So trams could more than double current capacity.

A 3 car 195 will have a total capacity of 346. 692*12 = 8304. 692 *16 = 11072. So 6 car trains at 16tph could have more capacity than a tram system. But would the investment and subsidy be worth it for a slight improvement not likely to be needed any time in the near future. Following Manchester's example, you could do all sorts of things with a tram system before 2.4 times current capacity became inadequate. Certainly, whoever was running the show, it is unlikely that level of capacity would be forthcoming in the current franchise renewal.
But the proposed Cardiff LRT is not a cross city system everything has to terminate in the city and turnaround across the face of other services this limits capacity compared to what cross city services can achieve. It's not Manchester.
 

MarkyT

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Short journeys may be. But not hour long commutes.

In which case you can have a mixed layout, as TfL specified for the Metropolitan S8 trains (unlike S7s for District/Circle/H&C which are all longitudinal). High density longitudinal seating along the sides in places with large standing capacity between, but with some conventional forward/rear facing seating bays as well that can all be taken up by the longer distance people from the valley heads in the morning before the trains hit crush central somewhere around Pontipridd / Caerphilly. Not so easy for our valley head commuter on the return trip home of course, when some pesky short-distance passenger has already taken the last seat, but at least they're likely to get one later in the journey.
 

Del1977

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In which case you can have a mixed layout, as TfL specified for the Metropolitan S8 trains (unlike S7s for District/Circle/H&C which are all longitudinal). High density longitudinal seating along the sides in places with large standing capacity between, but with some conventional forward/rear facing seating bays as well that can all be taken up by the longer distance people from the valley heads in the morning before the trains hit crush central somewhere around Pontypridd / Caerphilly. Not so easy for our valley head commuter on the return trip home of course, when some pesky short-distance passenger has already taken the last seat, but at least they're likely to get one later in the journey.

Agree. Long journeys i.e. up to an hour are common for many people commuting in and out of other cities. It's about an hour from Epping->Oxford Circus.


The problem has been for decades that politicians, planners and the like have not accepted that many Valleys towns and villages are - to all intents and purposes - suburbs and dormitories of Cardiff.

So instead of looking to deliver a long-term economic solution for the whole region following the deindustrialisation of the South Wales coal field, the focus has erroneously been on attracting low-rent jobs, in factories on wind-swept hills that are 10 minutes drive from colliery XYZ that closed. Those days are over.

A different approach is needed, one which recognises that Caerphilly/Pontypridd, and further afield, are dormitory suburbs of Cardiff, and are provided with a transport solution appropriate to their needs and funneling commuters, shoppers and leisure travellers in and out of Cardiff city centre, rapidly and efficiently. The growth in jobs in the region will be focused in Cardiff, as is the case with other cities and large towns in other parts of the UK and wider world. Clustering of economic activity is a well-documented phenomenon.

Half of the population of Wales live within 20 miles of Cardiff - or 1.5m people. This is - in many parts - a highly urbanised area.

I don't see the South Wales Metro concept as simply a replacement exercise for decades-old Pacers and 150s with newer trains with pantographs. That a network with 20 stops in a 20 mile run, with frequencies of up to 4 an hour isn't already electrified is shocking, and brand new DMUs are not the answer.

The Metro concept has to deliver a more ambitious transport solution for the 21st Century. The industrial landscape saved much of South Wales's train infrastructure from the Beeching axe. This infrastructure should now be utilised to deliver better economic opportunities for the region, even if we have to accept incremental improvements.

There is no engineering reason why Canton depot, running through Cardiff Central, or the various other 'constraints' cannot be overcome. Might be costly, yes, and indeed disruptive. But these are not insurmountable obstacles.
 

Bletchleyite

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The 50m single unit lengths and 100m capability of the stations really does point towards the South Wales Metro being a train-tram as much as a tram-train or a traditional tram. A 100m doubled-up unit would be too long to live alongside pedestrians, buses and bikes in the middle of Cardiff, but it could get away without that expensive grade-separation. There would be no need to worry about level crossings, and stations can be sited nearer where people are and want to go rather than where a normal station can be fit.

I do see a lot of merit in the idea of operating rural branch lines using tram-style operating methods even if there is no street running, such as low platforms, open level crossings with the "tram" operating on sight as well as the cars, etc. Keeps costs down and makes them more viable.
 

Bletchleyite

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In which case you can have a mixed layout, as TfL specified for the Metropolitan S8 trains (unlike S7s for District/Circle/H&C which are all longitudinal). High density longitudinal seating along the sides in places with large standing capacity between, but with some conventional forward/rear facing seating bays as well that can all be taken up by the longer distance people from the valley heads in the morning before the trains hit crush central somewhere around Pontipridd / Caerphilly. Not so easy for our valley head commuter on the return trip home of course, when some pesky short-distance passenger has already taken the last seat, but at least they're likely to get one later in the journey.

I favour the Sheffield tram layout - low-floor standee/wheelchair/pram areas at the ends with lots of door space, and a central seated area without doors for longer journeys. You also see that layout on many Swiss narrow gauge lines.
 

Gareth Marston

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Agree. Long journeys i.e. up to an hour are common for many people commuting in and out of other cities. It's about an hour from Epping->Oxford Circus.


The problem has been for decades that politicians, planners and the like have not accepted that many Valleys towns and villages are - to all intents and purposes - suburbs and dormitories of Cardiff.

So instead of looking to deliver a long-term economic solution for the whole region following the deindustrialisation of the South Wales coal field, the focus has erroneously been on attracting low-rent jobs, in factories on wind-swept hills that are 10 minutes drive from colliery XYZ that closed. Those days are over.

A different approach is needed, one which recognises that Caerphilly/Pontypridd, and further afield, are dormitory suburbs of Cardiff, and are provided with a transport solution appropriate to their needs and funneling commuters, shoppers and leisure travellers in and out of Cardiff city centre, rapidly and efficiently. The growth in jobs in the region will be focused in Cardiff, as is the case with other cities and large towns in other parts of the UK and wider world. Clustering of economic activity is a well-documented phenomenon.

Half of the population of Wales live within 20 miles of Cardiff - or 1.5m people. This is - in many parts - a highly urbanised area.

I don't see the South Wales Metro concept as simply a replacement exercise for decades-old Pacers and 150s with newer trains with pantographs. That a network with 20 stops in a 20 mile run, with frequencies of up to 4 an hour isn't already electrified is shocking, and brand new DMUs are not the answer.

The Metro concept has to deliver a more ambitious transport solution for the 21st Century. The industrial landscape saved much of South Wales's train infrastructure from the Beeching axe. This infrastructure should now be utilised to deliver better economic opportunities for the region, even if we have to accept incremental improvements.

There is no engineering reason why Canton depot, running through Cardiff Central, or the various other 'constraints' cannot be overcome. Might be costly, yes, and indeed disruptive. But these are not insurmountable obstacles.

Then the Welsh Government had to invest in the whole network and not just do an LRT replacement of heavy rail lines north of Cardiff Queen St which is what we have on the cards here.

The current Proposals are not a "South Wales Metro" but a vehicle to wrestle control and power over something from Westminster and present something shiny and new to the masses of the valleys. everything that will develop a metro to the wider area is back loaded to undefined future stages. There's two political objectives front loaded in this which are not necessarily aligned with the best solution for public transport or the economy of South Wales.
 

Del1977

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Then the Welsh Government had to invest in the whole network and not just do an LRT replacement of heavy rail lines north of Cardiff Queen St which is what we have on the cards here.

The current Proposals are not a "South Wales Metro" but a vehicle to wrestle control and power over something from Westminster and present something shiny and new to the masses of the valleys. everything that will develop a metro to the wider area is back loaded to undefined future stages. There's two political objectives front loaded in this which are not necessarily aligned with the best solution for public transport or the economy of South Wales.

I've been following the other thread on Wales & Borders franchise renewal. Obviously, rail users in Ludlow, Shrewsbury, Wrexham or Milford Haven need to be catered for in the franchise renewal, and I'd like to see improvements to the Marches line, (which is my favourite in the UK), and for commuters between Wrexham and Liverpool etc.

It's natural the majority of the focus is going to be on where the majority of people actually live.

I was against Welsh devolution. I'm still against Welsh devolution. My supporting the concept of a South Wales Metro is that I think it's the best opportunity for economic regeneration in South Wales. Whatever the political motivations of the Welsh Assembly, I do think they've finally hit on a sensible economic plan by treating Cardiff and its surrounding valleys as Cardiff Capital Region. Yes, I think the politicians there are useless. Yes, they are second and third rate. But I think they've actually stumbled on the right idea here. Whether they can implement it is another matter.
 

WelshBluebird

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I almost think we are disagreeing over different things here!

Yes, Del1977, you are totally right that the valleys have to be treated as essentially commuter towns of Cardiff for the most part (though not totally, as you still have people living in those areas, so you will still need services etc in them, and you will also have people who are not capable, be it physically, mentally etc, of doing the jobs that you would commute for).

And yes, for that to work, we need more than just a replacement of old trains and a slight frequency boost.

But the problem is, the South Wales Metro, in what we can see so far, will just be that. A replacement of old trains with shiny trams or tram-trains (or train-rams) and a slight bump in frequency, at the expense of other, depending on who you talk to more important, things.

If we were talking about a total rethink of public transport in the valleys and Cardiff, properly integrating bus, rail and light rail, getting people from A-B in a more efficient and cheaper manner than what is currently possible with heavy rail, then I would totally be in agreement. But we (or well, the Welsh Government) is not talking about that at all. They just want to get some power that currently exists on a national scale, and will go for the tram option because it is cheaper.
 

B&I

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I can't read this thread without thinking how most of these issues could have been avoided by someone having the foresight to leave a couple of hundred yards of land south of Cardiff Central and its approaches free for some extra tracks.
 

Del1977

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I almost think we are disagreeing over different things here!

If we were talking about a total rethink of public transport in the valleys and Cardiff, properly integrating bus, rail and light rail, getting people from A-B in a more efficient and cheaper manner than what is currently possible with heavy rail, then I would totally be in agreement. But we (or well, the Welsh Government) is not talking about that at all. They just want to get some power that currently exists on a national scale, and will go for the tram option because it is cheaper.

I really hope you're wrong and they actually are working to some sort of master plan to integrate transport across the region. No one would be more disappointed than me to see trams replacing heavy rail on the Valley Lines, and that being the limit of their ambition. That would really be a waste of time and money. If that's the extent of their plans, then they should just electrify throughout to Barry Island and Penarth and just replace the existing units with EMUs, and leave Network Rail to manage the infrastructure.

Of course - they could publish the tender documentation and their grand plans. We have very little to go on so far other than some environmental assessments and a planning application for a depot in Taff's Well. I'm amazed that the opposition / the media have let them get away with this secrecy, though thinking about it - the Welsh media has always been weak rather than holding Welsh politicians to account.
 

MarkyT

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I do see a lot of merit in the idea of operating rural branch lines using tram-style operating methods even if there is no street running, such as low platforms, open level crossings with the "tram" operating on sight as well as the cars, etc. Keeps costs down and makes them more viable.
I agree, especially as regards level crossings, new examples of which would be immensely difficult to justify on anything that branded itself as 'HR' today, but put some road legal light clusters and side skirts on you pacer sized vehicle, add some good magnetic track brakes and you're good to drive it down the High Street it appears! As you point out, the important feature of LR-style crossings is they're locally monitored by the approaching rail vehicle. That limits approach speed according to visibility, but that is not usually a major problem for typical all stations branch line services. I'm less convinced of the benefits of low platforms in all cases however. They make new stops a little cheaper to construct clearly, and much easier to fit into a streetscape, but Manchester Metrolink seem to cope very well with the high platforms they standardised on in the early days after taking over former HR lines, and if any tram-train network is going to share significant stretches of track and stations with other HR traffic in UK, those sections must retain high platforms. Adding split-level extensions as at Rotherham Central is not an easy solution at all sites, especially if the HR trains are fairly long and stations are constrained by junctions, so high platform may be more appropriate for the tram-train services i those circumstances too. For Sheffield-Rotherham just two new stations are tagged on to an already predominantly low floor network. Low floor was a 'no brainer' in that situation, but that does not define tram-trains as being only or fundamentally a low-floor solution. In the Valleys, all the existing stations have high platforms today, so my bet is that new vehicles for those lines will be built to suit them. For short future extensions, all the LR benefits of tighter curves and steeper gradients will still be available, together with the flexibility to run partly on or beside streets easily where required, but new high platforms would be required at any new stops, as in Greater Manchester. 'Horses for courses' as they say.
 

edwin_m

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I've done some quick maths.

An M5000 tram only has 60 seats per train set, so 2x will only have 120 seats.

A class 150 has 124 seats per 2 car set, so a doubled up set will have 248 seats.

A 3 car class 195 has 200 seats per set, so a doubled up set will have 400 seats.

The maximum capacity that a LR system can offer is 24 * 120 = 2880 seats per hour.

The maximum capacity a HR system can offer is 16 * 400 = 6400 seats per hour.

Using the current rolling stock, the capacity offered is 3968 seats per hour.
Therefore the light rail will offer a drop in capacity even though it has a higher frequency.
Two M5000s would only be about 60m long, whereas two (two-car) 150s would be about 80m long. So you need to up your light rail figures by 33% to be comparable. You're also comparing a light rail vehicle with a high density layout against a heavy rail vehicle with a lower-density layout. Although both are common arrangements there's no reason why they should be universal.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think Metrolink probably regret the high platforms now as most of their network is new-build (nothing was re-used on the Oldham line, unlike Bury/Altrincham), but at the time low-floor was in its infancy - Sheffield was probably one of the world's first low-floor tramways. With the Valleys I can see high-floor saving a lot of initial cost in allowing a Metrolink style conversion, though possibly with a lower-than-rail-standard floor (in the manner of the Merseyrail FLIRTs) to allow level boarding throughout.
 

MarkyT

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With the Valleys I can see high-floor saving a lot of initial cost in allowing a Metrolink style conversion, though possibly with a lower-than-rail-standard floor (in the manner of the Merseyrail FLIRTs) to allow level boarding throughout.
Good idea, also a feature of Anglia's new FLIRTS I understand. It should be straightforward to achieve with LR-derived vehicles.
 

NotATrainspott

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There are 3 large constraints on any Light Rail System that TfW are trying to force through.

Firstly the twin track Newport Rd bridge in-between where the Rhymney and Taff lines converge and Queen St station. Building an additional bridge would be very very expensive and highly disruptive to a main city artery. Therefore whilst you can get 24 tph over it they have to be split between the Rhymeny (12 tph) and Taff (12tph) lines restricting the capacity north of Cardiff.

If the two-track bridge is re-signalled for light rail, then the 24tph limitation disappears. Light rail signalling on dedicated tracks is as high-capacity as you can possibly get.

Secondly the City line is not an option for LRT trains from the Taff Corridor as it runs around the throat of Vale Lines which are to stay Heavy Rail and the access from central station into Canton depot.

Only if the LR trains are not permitted on HR tracks. Even if the core Valley lines are handed over to a separate LR operator that does not mean the vehicles can't be capable of running onto NR tracks. Incidental sharing of tracks between LR and HR is exactly what the tram-train concept makes possible. In Manchester, the benefit of trams and trains being able to share the short few hundred metres of track through Navigation Road or Newton Heath and Moston would be enormous. In Cardiff, you could have Metro trains running around Canton as if it were part of the LR network, while the occasional HR train can still get in and out when necessary.

Then the Welsh Government had to invest in the whole network and not just do an LRT replacement of heavy rail lines north of Cardiff Queen St which is what we have on the cards here.

The current Proposals are not a "South Wales Metro" but a vehicle to wrestle control and power over something from Westminster and present something shiny and new to the masses of the valleys. everything that will develop a metro to the wider area is back loaded to undefined future stages. There's two political objectives front loaded in this which are not necessarily aligned with the best solution for public transport or the economy of South Wales.

But as I've said, there will be political consequences if that's the case. As demonstrated by Scotland, the Additional Member System makes it very hard for governments to rest on their laurels, regardless of how politically and socially established they may be. If Carwyn Jones ruins the Valleys for the sake of his party's ego, his party is going to face the consequences.

I think Metrolink probably regret the high platforms now as most of their network is new-build (nothing was re-used on the Oldham line, unlike Bury/Altrincham), but at the time low-floor was in its infancy - Sheffield was probably one of the world's first low-floor tramways. With the Valleys I can see high-floor saving a lot of initial cost in allowing a Metrolink style conversion, though possibly with a lower-than-rail-standard floor (in the manner of the Merseyrail FLIRTs) to allow level boarding throughout.

'High floor' trams have an internal floor height approximately the same as our nominal 915mm platform standard. The Merseyrail FLIRTs have a 965mm floor, as opposed to the 1100m standard for most modern EMUs.

Regarding peak capacity concerns, it is important to understand that the heavy rail network would only ever run at this capacity for a very small amount of the day. Sure, this is handy at peak times when there's plenty of demand to fill trains, but it comes at the cost of flexibility in the off-peak. Heavy rail can't handle off-peak (i.e. most of the day) as efficiently as light rail. Off-peak HR frequencies are often as low as are operationally feasible, meaning that the service isn't really that useful for a lot of people. Trains can't run that early or that late since passenger numbers drop below the point of services being at all viable.

With light rail, capacity can match demand much more efficiently throughout the day. Services can run earlier and later, and at higher frequencies, without incurring uneconomic running costs. As services become more frequent and run for more of the day, demand naturally rises as the train/tram is a more viable option for travel. It's much easier to get into the virtuous circle where increasing demand means it's viable to run more services, which increases demand and makes the whole network more economically viable.

We have to face the fact that the heavy rail Valley Lines network requires significant subsidy. Meanwhile, a well designed LR/combo network presents an opportunity to reduce that subsidy. I'm not against subsidy, but it has to be remembered that this subsidy has to come at a cost. If the same or more transport benefits can be delivered with less subsidy by LR, then it is unarguably the better option. If it can only manage to equal the benefits, then the reduction in subsidy can be used to fund other worthwhile things, from general public services to subsidy for other, more needy public transport causes.

The ideal outcome is that a LR network grows enough to become self-sustaining, like in Manchester. The city no longer has to go begging for investment, because it is self-evident to the people holding the purse-strings that extra money invested in Metrolink means more profit in future. Lots of worthwhile ideas end up floundering because they require not only upfront investment but long-term subsidy. The schemes most likely to be funded are always those which end up reducing subsidy over the long run - e.g. a simple extension of a service that already runs without requiring too many extra crews or trains.
 

MarkyT

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If the two-track bridge is re-signalled for light rail, then the 24tph limitation disappears. Light rail signalling on dedicated tracks is as high-capacity as you can possibly get.
Just add tram signal aspects to existing colour lights protecting platforms at Queen St, and elsewhere where required for capacity. Employing tram signals could allow a second tram to be admitted permissively before the previous one has left the platform ahead without all the complications of a cab signalling/ATO overlay as NR had to implement on Thameslink and TfL plan on London's subsurface network to achieve 24 and 30+ tph respectively. The superior braking capability of LR stock would control the risk of the 'permissive' working, and keeping the existing signals as well would retain the ability to run the odd HR train through the area as well; freights in the off peak for example. In that case HR trains would take no notice of the tram signal as it would be meaningless to a freight driver, just as road users do not obey tram signals when they are co-located with road traffic signals. The extra tram signal aspects would be controlled through the existing interlocking and control centre which is modern and should be fairly easily modified without complete and wasteful replacement of the whole system. The existing colour lights elsewhere on the Valleys network already deliver a technical headway of 30+ tph on plain line. The stations, junctions and the single line sections higher up the valleys are what limit capacity.
 

Gareth Marston

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If the two-track bridge is re-signalled for light rail, then the 24tph limitation disappears. Light rail signalling on dedicated tracks is as high-capacity as you can possibly get.

Only if the LR trains are not permitted on HR tracks. Even if the core Valley lines are handed over to a separate LR operator that does not mean the vehicles can't be capable of running onto NR tracks. Incidental sharing of tracks between LR and HR is exactly what the tram-train concept makes possible. In Manchester, the benefit of trams and trains being able to share the short few hundred metres of track through Navigation Road or Newton Heath and Moston would be enormous. In Cardiff, you could have Metro trains running around Canton as if it were part of the LR network, while the occasional HR train can still get in and out when necessary.

Lets deal with what is actually being proposed NotaTranspott, the Documents on TfW website clearly show that services will terminate at Central or the Bay and that the City line which is not on the early phase of development is considered for on street running diverging the current alignment just before Ninian PArk station.
https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/03 Central Cardiff Package - Ecological Constraints.pdf

For all your enthusiasm for Light Rail and frequencies I'll stand by the point that TfW have designed a LRT system that terminates in the city not a cross city one therefore the whole system is constrained by how many services an hour they can turnaround in central Cardiff- which will inevitably mean lower frequency's than can be achieved in core sections of cross city lines.
 

Gareth Marston

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Just add tram signal aspects to existing colour lights protecting platforms at Queen St, and elsewhere where required for capacity. Employing tram signals could allow a second tram to be admitted permissively before the previous one has left the platform ahead without all the complications of a cab signalling/ATO overlay as NR had to implement on Thameslink and TfL plan on London's subsurface network to achieve 24 and 30+ tph respectively. The superior braking capability of LR stock would control the risk of the 'permissive' working, and keeping the existing signals as well would retain the ability to run the odd HR train through the area as well; freights in the off peak for example. In that case HR trains would take no notice of the tram signal as it would be meaningless to a freight driver, just as road users do not obey tram signals when they are co-located with road traffic signals. The extra tram signal aspects would be controlled through the existing interlocking and control centre which is modern and should be fairly easily modified without complete and wasteful replacement of the whole system. The existing colour lights elsewhere on the Valleys network already deliver a technical headway of 30+ tph on plain line. The stations, junctions and the single line sections higher up the valleys are what limit capacity.

Again MakyT your another poster whose not looked at the plans proposed by TfW and are applying cross city core section system logic to a system that's planned to terminate in the city center.
 
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Gareth Marston

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But as I've said, there will be political consequences if that's the case. As demonstrated by Scotland, the Additional Member System makes it very hard for governments to rest on their laurels, regardless of how politically and socially established they may be. If Carwyn Jones ruins the Valleys for the sake of his party's ego, his party is going to face the consequences.

A "cheap" and flawed conversion of heavy rail lines north of Queen St to Light Rail serves two maybe three main political objectives, firstly it takes power and control away from Westminster over something, secondly the Welsh Government can present something shiny and new to the public and thirdly they hopefully wont have to divert resources from there road building programme. Carwyn himself will have stepped down before the works are complete and once the general public realise that there are down sides such as a better standing environment rather than the seats they want, lack of cross city services, the fact that its not a South Wales Metro then its someone else's problem.
 

Envoy

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Lets deal with what is actually being proposed NotaTranspott, the Documents on TfW website clearly show that services will terminate at Central or the Bay and that the City line which is not on the early phase of development is considered for on street running diverging the current alignment just before Ninian PArk station.
https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/03 Central Cardiff Package - Ecological Constraints.pdf

For all your enthusiasm for Light Rail and frequencies I'll stand by the point that TfW have designed a LRT system that terminates in the city not a cross city one therefore the whole system is constrained by how many services an hour they can turnaround in central Cardiff- which will inevitably mean lower frequency's than can be achieved in core sections of cross city lines.

So, the City Line, which at present offers a reliable straight forward link between Ninian Park station & Central gets abandoned & the new tram-trains have to go onto the congested streets to enter the city centre via Cowbridge Road = absolutely bonkers! (Scheme 220 on the map on the link provided by GM). Just how could they come off the City line at Leckwith Road? I would have thought that Network Rail would wish to retain control of the link between Ninian Park and the main line - thus possibly preventing any tram-train system from going into Ninian Park station.

Then I see Scheme 217 = trams going through St.Mary Street. Why would anybody want tram-trains in St.Mary Street? Can’t people walk the short distance from the present day bus stops in Westgate Street? Cardiff City Centre is relatively compact and it is so pleasant to have the pedestrian zones - which are easily walkable from both Central & Queen Street Stations.
 

Gareth Marston

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So, the City Line, which at present offers a reliable straight forward link between Ninian Park station & Central gets abandoned & the new tram-trains have to go onto the congested streets to enter the city centre via Cowbridge Road = absolutely bonkers! (Scheme 220 on the map on the link provided by GM). Just how could they come off the City line at Leckwith Road? I would have thought that Network Rail would wish to retain control of the link between Ninian Park and the main line - thus possibly preventing any tram-train system from going into Ninian Park station.

Then I see Scheme 217 = trams going through St.Mary Street. Why would anybody want tram-trains in St.Mary Street? Can’t people walk the short distance from the present day bus stops in Westgate Street? Cardiff City Centre is relatively compact and it is so pleasant to have the pedestrian zones - which are easily walkable from both Central & Queen Street Stations.

Indeed you would have thought they would have learned from the Edinburgh experience however these add on stages are all kicked in the long grass of "development later" - as I said in post #707 public transport improvements are not the main concern but political ones.
 

Del1977

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I think people are getting a bit carried away with TfWs crayons on a map exercise with 100s of schemes.

Neither of the schemes around Ninian Park referred to above are actually going ahead in the next Phase, and each requires further 'consideration' before being included in future plans. So currently, all services on the City line must be planned to run in to / through Cardiff Central.

In addition, if you look at the Rhymney line plan, it shows trains/trams whatever continuing to run into Cardiff Central (Scheme 5).
 

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