South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Envoy]

I think people are getting a bit carried away with TfWs crayons on a map exercise with 100s of schemes.

Neither of the schemes around Ninian Park referred to above are actually going ahead in the next Phase, and each requires further 'consideration' before being included in future plans. So currently, all services on the City line must be planned to run in to / through Cardiff Central.

In addition, if you look at the Rhymney line plan, it shows trains/trams whatever continuing to run into Cardiff Central (Scheme 5).

No - it does matter now what the intended outcome is of the plans - and getting into the Central station from the City Line without going via the streets is absolutely vital. Plans are being drawn up now for new developments NW of Cardiff and these plans do not show any railway stations or associated car parks. All they have done is left the former single track rail route as a protected strip for ‘any future metro’. No allowance has been made for bridges over what could be a ‘normal’ rail service as they are assuming street level crossings. The salesroom for the new Plasdwr development shows a map of the area with the old rail route marked as a cycleway.

If tram-trains are not permitted to enter the Central Station form the valleys and have to go through Callaghan Square at street level, this will be a clear disadvantage to the people of the valleys as well as users from Cardiff’s suburbs. Throw in the fact that possibly services will not continue to the coast via Network Rail lines and you have a situation where a load of money could be spent to end up with a worse service. (Would people actually look back at the golden era of ATW and the Pacers)?

 

[Del1977]

Well let's be clear: If their plans are to be trusted, the trams or whatever are running into Central on the current plans from both the City Line (the absence of a confirmed plan to do otherwise) and from Cardiff Queen Street (Scheme 5). So the idea that they won't be permitted to run into Central isn't correct to start.

Then there's the routing from Ninian Park past Canton depot. Again - as there is no confirmed proposal to run on street from Ninian Park, then they don't see the depot problem as being something that they can't deal with.

Not disagreeing with views expressed here that moving to on-street running where currently on segregated rails is a bad idea.

Simply pointing out that next phase: conversion to LR has the trams/trains running on the heavy rails currently in existence, apart from possibly the Grangetown diversion to Penarth, which is Green - possible inclusion in this phase.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think people are getting a bit carried away with TfWs crayons on a map exercise with 100s of schemes.

Neither of the schemes around Ninian Park referred to above are actually going ahead in the next Phase, and each requires further 'consideration' before being included in future plans. So currently, all services on the City line must be planned to run in to / through Cardiff Central.

In addition, if you look at the Rhymney line plan, it shows trains/trams whatever continuing to run into Cardiff Central (Scheme 5).

The plans show that the line from Pontypridd to Cardiff via Llandaff is to progress as light rail conversion (as are the Coryton and Rhymney lines) and the City line west of Central has had its light rail street running conversion deferred. Therefore it (city line west) has to remain as DMU heavy rail.

 

[Del1977]

For the sake of argument - let's say this is right - and a DMU shuttle continues in Phase 2 from Radyr to Cardiff Central via the existing alignment at the current frequency.

In the event of a future change, let's say - on-street running via one of their various unconfirmed schemes - would it really be so bad for users of the network in the Ninian Park / Waungron Park area to have a marginally increased journey time, but say a service every 10 minutes rather than every half an hour, which is the current frequency? No one would run a tram at 30 minute intervals, so their overall journey time may still be less.

A trade-off perhaps. But also opens up the accessibility of public transport to more users in the west of Cardiff / future extensions to Ely/Culverhouse Cross.

That future developments would potentially have a theoretically longer travel time to central Cardiff is missing the point - since any future metro extension servicing new build North West communities would be getting a link they don't currently have. Even with street running through Canton - they'd be on a link that would probably get in to central Cardiff in under 25 minutes.

 

[Solaris]

For the sake of argument - let's say this is right - and a DMU shuttle continues in Phase 2 from Radyr to Cardiff Central via the existing alignment at the current frequency.

In the event of a future change, let's say - on-street running via one of their various unconfirmed schemes - would it really be so bad for users of the network in the Ninian Park / Waungron Park area to have a marginally increased journey time, but say a service every 10 minutes rather than every half an hour, which is the current frequency? No one would run a tram at 30 minute intervals, so their overall journey time may still be less.

A trade-off perhaps. But also opens up the accessibility of public transport to more users in the west of Cardiff / future extensions to Ely/Culverhouse Cross.

That future developments would potentially have a theoretically longer travel time to central Cardiff is missing the point - since any future metro extension servicing new build North West communities would be getting a link they don't currently have. Even with street running through Canton - they'd be on a link that would probably get in to central Cardiff in under 25 minutes.

Del1977 - you seem to be one of the few people in this cave with a torch...! Most are missing the bigger long term picture enabled by LR and are coming to a short term view based on mainly incorrect assumptions...... like I said (and I know some don't like it) lets wait and see.

 

[Gareth Marston]

For the sake of argument - let's say this is right - and a DMU shuttle continues in Phase 2 from Radyr to Cardiff Central via the existing alignment at the current frequency.

In the event of a future change, let's say - on-street running via one of their various unconfirmed schemes - would it really be so bad for users of the network in the Ninian Park / Waungron Park area to have a marginally increased journey time, but say a service every 10 minutes rather than every half an hour, which is the current frequency? No one would run a tram at 30 minute intervals, so their overall journey time may still be less.

A trade-off perhaps. But also opens up the accessibility of public transport to more users in the west of Cardiff / future extensions to Ely/Culverhouse Cross.

That future developments would potentially have a theoretically longer travel time to central Cardiff is missing the point - since any future metro extension servicing new build North West communities would be getting a link they don't currently have. Even with street running through Canton - they'd be on a link that would probably get in to central Cardiff in under 25 minutes.

The current nearest timed bus stop is Leckwith Retail Park - its 13 minutes to Wood St opposite central station by Cardiff Bus Number 95. Ninian park Station to Central is 4 minutes

 

[Envoy]

For the sake of argument - let's say this is right - and a DMU shuttle continues in Phase 2 from Radyr to Cardiff Central via the existing alignment at the current frequency.

In the event of a future change, let's say - on-street running via one of their various unconfirmed schemes - would it really be so bad for users of the network in the Ninian Park / Waungron Park area to have a marginally increased journey time, but say a service every 10 minutes rather than every half an hour, which is the current frequency? No one would run a tram at 30 minute intervals, so their overall journey time may still be less.

A trade-off perhaps. But also opens up the accessibility of public transport to more users in the west of Cardiff / future extensions to Ely/Culverhouse Cross.

That future developments would potentially have a theoretically longer travel time to central Cardiff is missing the point - since any future metro extension servicing new build North West communities would be getting a link they don't currently have. Even with street running through Canton - they'd be on a link that would probably get in to central Cardiff in under 25 minutes.

People at Fairwater, Waungron etc. can virtually depend on the current train service turning up bang on time - that would surely not be the case if it has to get into the city centre via the road network. They also have the benefit of being able to catch one train that almost encircles the more central suburbs. (A teacher living near Heath Halt, for example, can easily get to work at Cantonian High School in Fairwater on one reliable train - avoiding all traffic jams). What this line needs is at least a 15 minute service - something that could perhaps *come if a half hourly service went on a new line out to Cregiau via the new suburbs. * Danescourt excepted - unless the Radyr service was increased.

One problem with the present system is that people can’t make short hops without having to pay the full fare to the city. There is also no system where they can switch to a bus from the train without having to pay again. People can’t even buy a through ticket from a City Line station to Swansea by train without paying about £2 more than if they buy split tickets at Central. This does nothing to encourage travel into Central by the local rail network.

 

[gareth950]

Del1977 - you seem to be one of the few people in this cave with a torch...! Most are missing the bigger long term picture enabled by LR and are coming to a short term view based on mainly incorrect assumptions...... like I said (and I know some don't like it) lets wait and see.

'Wait and see' for what? You know full well that all of the crucial decisions have been made, despite TfW claiming otherwise.
This has been the most opaque awarding of a new rail franchise and contract since the dawn of privatisation.

 

[Del1977]

The current nearest timed bus stop is Leckwith Retail Park - its 13 minutes to Wood St opposite central station by Cardiff Bus Number 95. Ninian park Station to Central is 4 minutes

But the rail service is only every 30 minutes, and you are unlikely to get more than every 30 minutes with whatever heavy rail system you implement on that stretch of line. There's no reason why a tram service can't have traffic priority and should take less time than a bus.

You need to appreciate how people use public transport in an urban city centre. They'll use the bus or tram etc. if it's turn up and go in preference to a train that runs twice an hour. In any event - it's a 20 minute walk from Ninian Park station to Cardiff Central. It's not far.

People at Fairwater, Waungron etc. can virtually depend on the current train service turning up bang on time - that would surely not be the case if it has to get into the city centre via the road network. They also have the benefit of being able to catch one train that almost encircles the more central suburbs. (A teacher living near Heath Halt, for example, can easily get to work at Cantonian High School in Fairwater on one reliable train - avoiding all traffic jams). What this line needs is at least a 15 minute service - something that could perhaps *come if a half hourly service went on a new line out to Cregiau via the new suburbs. * Danescourt excepted - unless the Radyr service was increased.

One problem with the present system is that people can’t make short hops without having to pay the full fare to the city. There is also no system where they can switch to a bus from the train without having to pay again. People can’t even buy a through ticket from a City Line station to Swansea by train without paying about £2 more than if they buy split tickets at Central. This does nothing to encourage travel into Central by the local rail network.

I don't think you'll get 15 minute services terminating at Radyr from Coryton in your hypothetical teacher case. You can't turn around the trains quickly enough on the single-track Coryton branch to deliver this. So he'd only ever have a 30 minute heavy rail service. Maybe, just maybe, the teacher currently has a choice of getting in 25 minutes before he needs to or 5 minutes late. If he had a more frequent service, even if his journey was slightly longer, he may be able to get to his destination at the time he wants to.

Some win, some lose in any reorganisation of a city / regions public transport. Not everyone can be a winner.

A fair point about integrated ticketing.

Del1977 - you seem to be one of the few people in this cave with a torch...! Most are missing the bigger long term picture enabled by LR and are coming to a short term view based on mainly incorrect assumptions...... like I said (and I know some don't like it) lets wait and see.

I think a lot of people are wedded to heavy rail to fix today's problem rather than seeing the potential of light rail/tram trains. There have been some valid objections / points made about the potential drawbacks, but some are more dubious.

I'd sub-divide the objections raised so far as follows:

Trivial:

Toilets on trains.
Comfort of replacement units (interiors can be specified) and ultimately still run on metal rails.

Unsubstantiated:

Trams/tram trains would be 'banned' from Cardiff Central or other parts of the heavy rail network. If it were unprecedented for tram/trains to use heavy rail networks - then fine. But it isn't.
LR will have less seats (no, depends on the seating plans / frequencies).

Valid objections:

Turfing everyone out at Cardiff Queen Street from the MTA lines and forcing a change to reach Cardiff Central.
Breaking the cross-city link to Barry Island from Cardiff Queen Street and beyond.
On-street running for *longer* distance services increasing overall journey times.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Del1977 - you seem to be one of the few people in this cave with a torch...! Most are missing the bigger long term picture enabled by LR and are coming to a short term view based on mainly incorrect assumptions...... like I said (and I know some don't like it) lets wait and see.

Another evidence light post Solaris - what incorrect assumptions? You can PM me if you want.

 

[Envoy]

Click this link and you will get a map of central Cardiff. I have enabled it to show you the live traffic flows at the time you click it. You may like to bookmark it and check it out at different times. I contend that the very streets on which they would run trams (or whatever) into central Cardiff are pretty jammed for much of the day. The whole attraction of the present railway is that it gets you into the centre without getting stuck in traffic jams.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4776579,-3.1872289,1471m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Now click the following link and put Cardiff Queen Street in the location box. Up will come a list of the trains. Usually they are running bang on time - despite covering considerable distances across SE Wales. Click on the code number for a train and you will be able to see how its journey progressed. Now, I know that some days things can go very wrong, but it is this accuracy of timing - all being well, which will be impossible if street running is allowed. The accuracy of timing is most important in the upper valleys - where trains are precisely timed to pass at passing points due to the single track. (Upgrading to twin track would be desirable as these routes were originally dual track).
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/CDQ?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Del1977]

Well it would be interesting to understand how much of that traffic on the western approaches to the city centre (Cowbridge Rd East/West) originates from west Cardiff (Ely etc.) - currently poorly served by public transport.

Similarly - the north west route - through Llandaff up Cathedral Road / Cardiff Road is another blackspot for traffic jams. A big area currently without stations as Llandaff station is actually in Whitchurch, and then the Taff line runs fast to Cathays.


You'd hope to see a reduction in congestion if the tram plan works.


Another interesting question would be to understand how many people drive to work in Central Cardiff from suburbs already very well served by current trains: e.g. Lisvane/Thornhill/Llanishen/Heath. I'd be interested in understanding why people choose to drive from areas with 4 to 6 trains an hour already.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The current peak services are already rammed when they hit the Cardiff suburbs, hence why capacity is such a big issue.

 

[NotATrainspott]

A "cheap" and flawed conversion of heavy rail lines north of Queen St to Light Rail serves two maybe three main political objectives, firstly it takes power and control away from Westminster over something, secondly the Welsh Government can present something shiny and new to the public and thirdly they hopefully wont have to divert resources from there road building programme. Carwyn himself will have stepped down before the works are complete and once the general public realise that there are down sides such as a better standing environment rather than the seats they want, lack of cross city services, the fact that its not a South Wales Metro then its someone else's problem.

Power doesn't work that way. Carwyn Jones is only FM because he has the support of a wide range of Labour politicians, activists and supporters. These people have interests beyond his own career. Him going off into the sunset leaving a nightmare for Labour in his wake is not something these people can or will tolerate. If he comes out with a terrible scheme and forces it to go ahead despite serious misgivings from people who know better, he's going to face serious consequences. This is always the case in politics.

I think people are getting a bit carried away with TfWs crayons on a map exercise with 100s of schemes.

Neither of the schemes around Ninian Park referred to above are actually going ahead in the next Phase, and each requires further 'consideration' before being included in future plans. So currently, all services on the City line must be planned to run in to / through Cardiff Central.

In addition, if you look at the Rhymney line plan, it shows trains/trams whatever continuing to run into Cardiff Central (Scheme 5).

My perspective is that TfW is coming out with lots of wonderfully bold ideas which will get value-engineered back down well before the diggers start. Street running is expensive and only justified when it makes important transport outcomes possible. The Karlsruhe model depends on having a minimal amount of street running to avoid congested heavy rail infrastructure in the city centre while connecting people to where they actually want to go within a city and not just where the railway could go.

 

[Envoy]

Well it would be interesting to understand how much of that traffic on the western approaches to the city centre (Cowbridge Rd East/West) originates from west Cardiff (Ely etc.) - currently poorly served by public transport.

Similarly - the north west route - through Llandaff up Cathedral Road / Cardiff Road is another blackspot for traffic jams. A big area currently without stations as Llandaff station is actually in Whitchurch, and then the Taff line runs fast to Cathays.


You'd hope to see a reduction in congestion if the tram plan works.


Another interesting question would be to understand how many people drive to work in Central Cardiff from suburbs already very well served by current trains: e.g. Lisvane/Thornhill/Llanishen/Heath. I'd be interested in understanding why people choose to drive from areas with 4 to 6 trains an hour already.

The western approach from Ely via Cowbridge Road has plenty of buses - especially since private company NAT started running cross city buses - something that Cardiff Bus had refused to do.
Western Avenue can be a black spot for traffic jams as no fast bus services link the western & eastern suburbs as they go via the centre. Llandaff is a particular bottleneck - a situation not helped by all the new housing that is now going up NW of the city. The scheme to have buses serving these new suburbs is flawed because you can’t have bus lanes through Llandaff or Fairwater. A large P&R car park at Danescourt station would have been ideal for getting these car drivers to switch to the City Line - but we have a situation with no car park & only a 30 minute frequency.

It would help if a new station was built on any new route out to Cregiau near Fairwater Leisure Centre - along with free parking. Plas Dwr plans show no land set aside for station or car park. Neither has land set aside for a station & P&R on the western end of the Plas Dwr development area - in order to serve the Rhydlava estate, lower Pentyrch and commuters from St.Fagans & vale villages. (Ideally, this should be near to where they plan to build a new high school).

As has been said, once trains reach Cardiff from the valleys in the peak, they are rammed. The car parks at Lisvane & Llanishen are also full resulting in overflow parking on the nearby streets.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The western approach from Ely via Cowbridge Road has plenty of buses - especially since private company NAT started running cross city buses - something that Cardiff Bus had refused to do.
Western Avenue can be a black spot for traffic jams as no fast bus services link the western & eastern suburbs as they go via the centre. Llandaff is a particular bottleneck - a situation not helped by all the new housing that is now going up NW of the city. The scheme to have buses serving these new suburbs is flawed because you can’t have bus lanes through Llandaff or Fairwater. A large P&R car park at Danescourt station would have been ideal for getting these car drivers to switch to the City Line - but we have a situation with no car park & only a 30 minute frequency.

It would help if a new station was built on any new route out to Cregiau near Fairwater Leisure Centre - along with free parking. Plas Dwr plans show no land set aside for station or car park. Neither has land set aside for a station & P&R on the western end of the Plas Dwr development area - in order to serve the Rhydlava estate, lower Pentyrch and commuters from St.Fagans & vale villages. (Ideally, this should be near to where they plan to build a new high school).

As has been said, once trains reach Cardiff from the valleys in the peak, they are rammed. The car parks at Lisvane & Llanishen are also full resulting in overflow parking on the nearby streets.

This is exactly the type of area the metro concept is suppose to make a real difference too- the areas that have poor public transport and high car dependency. However what we have is what money there is is being sunk into the LRT conversion of core valley lines and then everything else is a fuzzy undefined later stage.

 

[Del1977]

As has been said, once trains reach Cardiff from the valleys in the peak, they are rammed. The car parks at Lisvane & Llanishen are also full resulting in overflow parking on the nearby streets.

Interesting that so many are driving to the P&R (still free parking on Valley Lines?) at Lisvane, given that the whole of Lisvane and 80% of Thornhill are within 15 minutes walk of Lisvane & Thornhill or Llanishen station.

If they are so busy that people are dubious as to whether they'll be able to board trains at all, then perhaps the real demand from these suburban stations is in fact much higher than being realised. Of course, you'd hope that any tram/train would be an attractive proposition to both cater for existing users and new ones. If there's a big increase in currently unsatiated demand, it may well be that additional fares will finance the Metro grand plans.

 

[Envoy]

Interesting that so many are driving to the P&R (still free parking on Valley Lines?) at Lisvane, given that the whole of Lisvane and 80% of Thornhill are within 15 minutes walk of Lisvane & Thornhill or Llanishen station.

If they are so busy that people are dubious as to whether they'll be able to board trains at all, then perhaps the real demand from these suburban stations is in fact much higher than being realised. Of course, you'd hope that any tram/train would be an attractive proposition to both cater for existing users and new ones. If there's a big increase in currently unsatiated demand, it may well be that additional fares will finance the Metro grand plans.

Many people won’t walk more than 10 minutes - especially in poor weather. Lisvane does cover quite an area, so it is understandable that they will drive to the nearest station. (Evidence suggests that having free parking at stations works in attracting people to switch to trains - along with reasonable fares. Many people will not like this as it encourages local flows of traffic - but, this is far better than having people drive all the way to their final destination).

I think that modern trains with plenty of capacity would increase business even more on the valley lines. When more trains become available, I think the Vale of Glam Coastline via Rhoose should have priority for a half hourly service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm probably in that bracket, as walking is a fairly inefficient use of time particularly when compared with extra time in bed. However I am more than willing to cycle (and usually do) if there is good provision (i.e. Sheffield stands, ideally under shelter) at the station.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Interesting that so many are driving to the P&R (still free parking on Valley Lines?) at Lisvane, given that the whole of Lisvane and 80% of Thornhill are within 15 minutes walk of Lisvane & Thornhill or Llanishen station.

If they are so busy that people are dubious as to whether they'll be able to board trains at all, then perhaps the real demand from these suburban stations is in fact much higher than being realised. Of course, you'd hope that any tram/train would be an attractive proposition to both cater for existing users and new ones. If there's a big increase in currently unsatiated demand, it may well be that additional fares will finance the Metro grand plans.

The CASR alterations were suppose to go hand in hand with 6 tph in the peak between Caerphilly and Cardiff up from the current 4 tph. There was a Cardiff facing bay installed at Caerphilly about 3 years ago so there woudl be 2 tph just to /from Caerphilly so the Lisvane commuters had a chance of not getting on an already crowded service. This was part ERDF funded and had been in the pipeline for some time indeed the original planning was done under PRISM's tenure of Cardiff Valleys and Nat Ex Wales and Borders under Tom Clift/ Chris Gibb.

Despite having the infrastructure works funded by WG they declined to invest in the rolling stock side of things and now want to bin the work delaying even further any improvements for the passenger.

 

[Chester1]

The CASR alterations were suppose to go hand in hand with 6 tph in the peak between Caerphilly and Cardiff up from the current 4 tph. There was a Cardiff facing bay installed at Caerphilly about 3 years ago so there woudl be 2 tph just to /from Caerphilly so the Lisvane commuters had a chance of not getting on an already crowded service. This was part ERDF funded and had been in the pipeline for some time indeed the original planning was done under PRISM's tenure of Cardiff Valleys and Nat Ex Wales and Borders under Tom Clift/ Chris Gibb.

Despite having the infrastructure works funded by WG they declined to invest in the rolling stock side of things and now want to bin the work delaying even further any improvements for the passenger.

Would it be commercially viable to introduce the extra 2tph using pacers leaving Northern from September? I imagine the leasing cost would be very low to use them until 31/12/2019. It would be a quick capacity increase for the new opperator.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The CASR alterations were suppose to go hand in hand with 6 tph in the peak between Caerphilly and Cardiff up from the current 4 tph. There was a Cardiff facing bay installed at Caerphilly about 3 years ago so there woudl be 2 tph just to /from Caerphilly so the Lisvane commuters had a chance of not getting on an already crowded service. This was part ERDF funded and had been in the pipeline for some time indeed the original planning was done under PRISM's tenure of Cardiff Valleys and Nat Ex Wales and Borders under Tom Clift/ Chris Gibb.

Despite having the infrastructure works funded by WG they declined to invest in the rolling stock side of things and now want to bin the work delaying even further any improvements for the passenger.

Along the same lines, were the stations up towards Treherbert not extended to be able to hold a 6 carriage train a few years ago now? But again lack of rolling stock has meant those works have essentially been pointless.

 

[PHILIPE]

Along the same lines, were the stations up towards Treherbert not extended to be able to hold a 6 carriage train a few years ago now? But again lack of rolling stock has meant those works have essentially been pointless.

And Rhymney. Units were identified but ATW decided to utilise them elsewhere, strengthening etc, spread across their Network.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Substantial sums of public money and European funding have been sunk into schemes associated with CASR to improve frequencies and capacity around about 10 miles from Cardiff. Yet the rolling stock to exploit these schemes has not been forthcoming. Now if TFW website is to be believed all this expenditure is to be thrown away and converting to LRT instead.

FOr the light rail Jihadis who post on this thread this includes anew platform at Cardiff central (8) and valleys services being available to use 8,5,6 & 4. A turn back at Barry to allow 6 tph to Cardiff, a turn back at Caerphilly to allow 6 tph, a turn back at Pontypridd to allow 8 tph to Cardiff. Lengthening Rhymeny valley platforms to six car length. making Central to queen St capable of handling 16 trains per hour reopening 2 platforms at Queeen St.

 

[MarkyT]

FOr the light rail Jihadis who post on this thread this includes anew platform at Cardiff central (8) and valleys services being available to use 8,5,6 & 4. A turn back at Barry to allow 6 tph to Cardiff, a turn back at Caerphilly to allow 6 tph, a turn back at Pontypridd to allow 8 tph to Cardiff. Lengthening Rhymeny valley platforms to six car length. making Central to queen St capable of handling 16 trains per hour reopening 2 platforms at Queeen St.

But new high floor tram trains could, at least intially, use ALL of these new facilities as soon as electrification was complete, and if the fleet size was sufficient they could enhance frequency accordingly.

 

[Del1977]

Agreed. Many of these facilities could be reused.

Even if they cannot, expenditure in the past represents sunk costs.

 

[Nevasleep]

Substantial sums of public money and European funding have been sunk into schemes associated with CASR to improve frequencies and capacity around about 10 miles from Cardiff. Yet the rolling stock to exploit these schemes has not been forthcoming. Now if TFW website is to be believed all this expenditure is to be thrown away and converting to LRT instead.

Perhaps this has caused a loss of confidence in heavy rail solutions, and light rail/tram trains might be an easier sell to improve the services, and make it easier to get new stock in future.

 

[Chester1]

Substantial sums of public money and European funding have been sunk into schemes associated with CASR to improve frequencies and capacity around about 10 miles from Cardiff. Yet the rolling stock to exploit these schemes has not been forthcoming. Now if TFW website is to be believed all this expenditure is to be thrown away and converting to LRT instead.

FOr the light rail Jihadis who post on this thread this includes anew platform at Cardiff central (8) and valleys services being available to use 8,5,6 & 4. A turn back at Barry to allow 6 tph to Cardiff, a turn back at Caerphilly to allow 6 tph, a turn back at Pontypridd to allow 8 tph to Cardiff. Lengthening Rhymeny valley platforms to six car length. making Central to queen St capable of handling 16 trains per hour reopening 2 platforms at Queeen St.

That list is pretty astounding and significant investment for anywhere outside of London. Wiring to Pontypridd and using a mixed fleet of 769s and 150s to run the Metro service would be much cheaper and provide more capacity. Could Northerns surpless pacers be used in the Autumn to provide extra services or would it require an opperating subsidy?

 

[gareth950]

Substantial sums of public money and European funding have been sunk into schemes associated with CASR to improve frequencies and capacity around about 10 miles from Cardiff. Yet the rolling stock to exploit these schemes has not been forthcoming. Now if TFW website is to be believed all this expenditure is to be thrown away and converting to LRT instead.

FOr the light rail Jihadis who post on this thread this includes anew platform at Cardiff central (8) and valleys services being available to use 8,5,6 & 4. A turn back at Barry to allow 6 tph to Cardiff, a turn back at Caerphilly to allow 6 tph, a turn back at Pontypridd to allow 8 tph to Cardiff. Lengthening Rhymeny valley platforms to six car length. making Central to queen St capable of handling 16 trains per hour reopening 2 platforms at Queeen St.

Add to that a new platform and passing loop at Tir-Phil and a completely new station at Eneglyn & Churchill Park on the Rhymney line. Rhymney is ready to go 4tph now and has 3 services 15 mins apart at 1701, 1716 and 1731 every night from Cardiff. Presumably Aberdare, Treherbert and Merthyr could go to 20 minute frequencies if enough trains were available.
Cardiff Central now has 4 dedicated Valley lines / Barry platforms as P4 is part of the Valleys workstation at the SWCC, but due to the fact there's been no timetable changes yet it's still mainly used as a mainline platform.

There's a wealth of information and articles on just how complex CASR was out there on the web.

Meanwhile, yesterday to a transport select committee in Westminster, Grayling said this:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/transport-wales-bigger-role-beyond-14193091
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/transport-secretary-says-hes-saved-14189771

However, yesterday at a Transport committee in Westminster, Transport Secretary Chris Grayling, suggested that electrification of all the Valley Lines into Cardiff might not happen.

Last year the UK Government announced it would not to electrifying the Great Western Mainline beyond Cardiff to Swansea.

Mr Grayling said: "Having been given a hard time by the Welsh Government for that decision [not electrifying to Swansea], it now looks like the Welsh Government is going to take the same decision on the Valley Lines. So, I'm not expecting all the Valley Lines to be electrified either."

And the Welsh Government's reaction is................

The Welsh Government said it couldn't comment as the procurement process is still live.

Meanwhile Ken Skates faced questions this afternoon in the Assembly regarding the award process etc and answered precisely none of the Qs he was asked.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/transport-wales-bigger-role-beyond-14193091

 

[Del1977]

Oh wow. No electrification of the Valley Lines. That would be a big mistake - whether you think HR or LR is the answer. Is there anywhere else in the whole of the UK with such a dense number of stations over such a relatively short distance, with the (current) frequencies, which are diesel operated?