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South Wales 'Metro' updates

gareth950

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And the plans for those wires would come about as a result of the franchising process.

The only infrastructure the Operator & Development Partner will be allowed to work on is the Core Valley lines, IF (and it's still an if) NR and DfT agree to transfer the Core VL to Welsh Govt, as surprisingly that still hasn't officially happened. Any other enhancements will be up to Network Rail and the DfT, because as has been said, almost the entire budget for VL electrification will be swallowed up by the Core VL project.

This is the thing. The problem you indicate would cost money to solve, and the problem itself would act as a dampener on the benefits of the whole scheme. When the government plans and awards the franchise, they have to account for these costs. When the money and contracts are being decided, there's no room for ambiguity. If 24tph or 10tph have to turn back in both directions in central Cardiff, there will be an infrastructure cost to be accounted for.

When I look at the plans, I can't see any way there would be a better business case for a split than there would be for 750V DC wires to go up to Radyr, Penarth and Barry Island. Any city centre turnback capacity will have an upfront infrastructure cost - the real upfront cost of the wires is therefore only the difference between its costs and the turnback costs. Turnbacks in city centre locations are rarely cheap, which is why services tend to be extended through to the other side. From this small-ish capital cost gap, there's then a big operational saving from using LR trains rather than HR.

So if it's confirmed unequivocally that the plans are for a network split, with everything from the Valleys, the Vale, Barry, Penarth & the City line terminating in or around Central station, what would you say to that?
Because whilst I have no inside info, I have read what must be every single news article on the Metro/Valley lines over the past few years, and I can absolutely say from reading everything there is to read on the subject, that TfW want a network split to hive off the Core VL from everything else, no matter what the effect on operational costs or flexibility at Cardiff Central.
 
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NotATrainspott

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The only infrastructure the Operator & Development Partner will be allowed to work on is the Core Valley lines, IF (and it's still an if) NR and DfT agree to transfer the Core VL to Welsh Govt, as surprisingly that still hasn't officially happened. Any other enhancements will be up to Network Rail and the DfT, because as has been said, almost the entire budget for VL electrification will be swallowed up by the Core VL project.

If there is a clear case for putting up 750V DC on the other lines, it will happen. NR themselves don't have to do the work as part of their normal investment period work. As ever, the funding would come from future operational savings.

So if it's confirmed unequivocally that the plans are for a network split, with everything from the Valleys, the Vale, Barry, Penarth & the City line terminating in or around Central station, what would you say to that?
Because whilst I have no inside info, I have read what must be every single news article on the Metro/Valley lines over the past few years, and I can absolutely say from reading everything there is to read on the subject, that TfW want a network split to hive off the Core VL from everything else, no matter what the effect on operational costs or flexibility at Cardiff Central.

If it's confirmed that there would be a full split, I would initially be curious about how they justified it. Despite what you think, it's really rather hard for civil servants to come out with utterly daft transport schemes for implementation just because of some political beliefs. Sure, plenty of other policies can be crap but these are largely human-based ones like welfare or education, where it's much more subjective and woolly whether something will work or not. Infrastructure doesn't work that way - if the metal and concrete doesn't exist for the thing the politicians say they want, then no amount of political thinking is going to change that. If they do manage to come out with a technically impossible or blatantly inefficient scheme then I will not support it.

I don't see why a totally hived-off network would be better for Labour anyway. They can have the same control over infrastructure and investment on the 'core Valley lines' if they have through running. The network with through running onto NR rails would be larger, more prominent and more revolutionary, all the sorts of things a politician would want as their legacy. Taking over the passenger services running onto NR rails doesn't have to stop any other ideas for the Metro. If anything, it makes it easier, since it provides an easier path for service improvements elsewhere on the network. The less subsidy the SWM needs, the more funding will be available for other rail and general government investments around Wales.
 

MarkyT

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So if it's confirmed unequivocally that the plans are for a network split, with everything from the Valleys, the Vale, Barry, Penarth & the City line terminating in or around Central station, what would you say to that?
Because whilst I have no inside info, I have read what must be every single news article on the Metro/Valley lines over the past few years, and I can absolutely say from reading everything there is to read on the subject, that TfW want a network split to hive off the Core VL from everything else, no matter what the effect on operational costs or flexibility at Cardiff Central.

I also have no inside knowledge at all but the WG is being advised by the bidders in their peculiar procurement process we are led to believe, who are all professional rail operators in partnership (or not) with professional construction organisations, all of whom will have teams of their own operating and engineering consultants, and the WG will have their own independent experts as well. I continue to hope that all that professionalism will conspire to design something that makes operational sense, which I think we are all agreeing should include retention of cross city running between infrastructure that will remain in NR ownership and whatever parts of the VL core are hived off under whatever terms to the WG. That may require some small interventions on remaining NR infrastructure. It is fully in line with current Westminster policy that organisations other than NR Projects should be able to manage and build projects on NR infrastructure, rather than taking their place at the back of the queue in one centrally managed national enhancements programme. I'm not saying there would be no NR involvement in such work. On the contrary there would be statutory liaison and approvals, but it would be light touch rather than active planning and financing of the work, more like how some projects were managed in the Railtrack era.
 

B&I

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Isn't that a sign of success? If they're full and standing, then people clearly want to use the services. If they were useless then the crowding would discourage people from travelling.

What stops there being extra double tram services? Are you arguing that HR would have meant longer trains at the same frequency?.

I suspect that inadequate rolling stock provision is down to the sort of penny pinching which you have spent the last several weeks arguing strongly in favour of, while at the same time trying to play down the actual flaws of any LR system in Britain, whether current or proposed.


Would passengers rather have somewhere marginally nicer to sit, or to get to where they want to go faster? People don't want to linger around transport systems. They want to get somewhere.

You know the aviation market demonstrates this perfectly. People want cheap and frequent. There is competitive pressure for airlines to go no-frills because people don't really care that much about a few hours of discomfort if the tickets are that much cheaper in the first place.

Can you please explain to me how providing a covered place for people to sit would slow Metrolink services down, or make system operations prohibitively expensive ? You are descending into self-parody. Oh, and as I pointed out before, Metrolink isn't actually very cheap for pasengers, compared to Northern services around Manchester.


Metrolink causes rain now. Lovely. As far as I'm aware, Metrolink stops typically have a canopy for some rain protection. People are pretty used to being out in the rain.

Remind me again where I said that Metrolink causes rain?

I note that your comments on the provision of canopies are qualified with 'as far as I'm aware'. I'm starting to wonder if you knoe Manchester any better than you know South Wales. In fact, a number of Metrolink stops have bus-style shelters, while others have fully enclosed waiting facilities in ex-HR station buildings, of the type you would probably dynamite aa being too luxurious for people outside London.

I know that you are determined not ti engage with how real humans actually behave, but you might want to think about those comments about sitting in the rain again. Do you think that gettinv drenched for their sins will attract people back to a particular form of transport? Or will they use another form of transport - including for the vast majority of people a metal boxwith 4 wheels which goes brrrm brrrm - the next time they make the same journey ?


They couldn't have been provided on HR. They might have been possible with a cross-city tunnel but at much, much higher costs.

You argued that Metrolink is such a poor service that people in Manchester wouldn't use it. Clearly, people in Manchester do use Metrolink.

As I have repeatedly said, yes, people use it, because there are still people who want to leave Altrincham or Bury by public transport. To argue that a light rail service must be popular, good quality etc because people no longer use an HR service which no longer exists is an interesting position.


Not everyone in South Wales has access to a car, or wants to have one. Lots of people would rather use cheaper and more convenient public transport. A cleaner up in the Valleys might actually rather like having a direct LR service all the way to the place they work running early and late, rather than being dependent on an expensive and unreliable car.

So you are planning a transport system not on the basis of trying to attract people out of their cars, but on the basis of providing as basic a service as possible on the assumption that there will always be someone who has no choice but to use it. Do you wanr to actually see modal shift occur, or, as your repeated arguments in favour of downgrading public transport everywhere but London suggest, is cutting up-front spending the onky thing which worries you?

What if Gladys decides to get the bus to this cleaning job? Plenty of people travel very long distances on buses in Greater Manchester rather than make the same journey by Metrolink.
 

Bletchleyite

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Can you please explain to me how providing a covered place for people to sit would slow Metrolink services down, or make system operations prohibitively expensive ?

Don't all Metrolink stations have a bus shelter on each platform at least? They used to.

In any case this, just like vehicle interior layout, has nothing to do with whether you choose light or heavy rail. There are National Rail stations with no covered seating, and there are tram stops with covered seating.

What if Gladys decides to get the bus to this cleaning job? Plenty of people travel very long distances on buses in Greater Manchester rather than make the same journey by Metrolink.

An awful lot of them do that because the fare system penalises interchange and differentiates between modes (in particular single-company bus season tickets being incredibly cheap). Were the fare structure unified like it is in Germany they might choose otherwise.
 

Dai Corner

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Don't all Metrolink stations have a bus shelter on each platform at least? They used to.

In any case this, just like vehicle interior layout, has nothing to do with whether you choose light or heavy rail. There are National Rail stations with no covered seating, and there are tram stops with covered seating.



An awful lot of them do that because the fare system penalises interchange and differentiates between modes (in particular single-company bus season tickets being incredibly cheap). Were the fare structure unified like it is in Germany they might choose otherwise.

Interestingly, Stagecoach (who are the dominant bus operator in the Valleys) are simultaneously competing with the railways on price on some corridors, on quality with their Gold standard on others and co-operating by offering combined road/rail tickets on a third set.
 

gareth950

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Interestingly, Stagecoach (who are the dominant bus operator in the Valleys) are simultaneously competing with the railways on price on some corridors, on quality with their Gold standard on others and co-operating by offering combined road/rail tickets on a third set.
Stagecoach should watch their backs......Transport for Wales are coming to take over.
 

Dai Corner

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Stagecoach should watch their backs......Transport for Wales are coming to take over.

What do you think might happen Gareth?

The main operators in the Metro area are the Cardiff and Newport municipals, Stagecoach and NAT who have just been bought by international group CDG. I can see the City councils selling/transferring their companies to TfW perhaps, but not the private operators. I don't think WG have powers to nationalise them.
 

Bletchleyite

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What do you think might happen Gareth?

The main operators in the Metro area are the Cardiff and Newport municipals, Stagecoach and NAT who have just been bought by international group CDG. I can see the City councils selling/transferring their companies to TfW perhaps, but not the private operators. I don't think WG have powers to nationalise them.

They won't nationalise, they may well regulate though (e.g. tendering by route or area for exclusive operation). Greater Manchester will prove educational.
 

gareth950

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What do you think might happen Gareth?

The main operators in the Metro area are the Cardiff and Newport municipals, Stagecoach and NAT who have just been bought by international group CDG. I can see the City councils selling/transferring their companies to TfW perhaps, but not the private operators. I don't think WG have powers to nationalise them.
Ken Skates has been increasingly talking up TfW as the overarching PT operator in Wales, emulating TfL. He wants TfW to operate Cardiff Airport and said a few weeks ago: "Following the successful model of acquisition of Cardiff Airport, our aim is for the public transport network to be increasingly directly owned or operated by Transport for Wales."

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/transport-wales-bigger-role-beyond-14193091
 

Gareth Marston

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An awful lot of them do that because the fare system penalises interchange and differentiates between modes (in particular single-company bus season tickets being incredibly cheap). Were the fare structure unified like it is in Germany they might choose otherwise.

An acid test of the Metro will be issues like this. You'd be surprised or maybe not just how many buses that are duplicate to Valley Lines services or could feed in to them actually roll down the A470 into Cardiff each day all trying to compete.
 

Gareth Marston

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Ken Skates has been increasingly talking up TfW as the overarching PT operator in Wales, emulating TfL. He wants TfW to operate Cardiff Airport and said a few weeks ago: "Following the successful model of acquisition of Cardiff Airport, our aim is for the public transport network to be increasingly directly owned or operated by Transport for Wales."

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/transport-wales-bigger-role-beyond-14193091

Possibly only the Welsh Government think that spending £55 million on a ailing regional airport was worth it. As to a successful Model of Acquistion the private firm that were making loses on it thought they hit the jackpot when offered it. Rumour at the time was they were prepared to go as low as £15 to £20 million to get rid of it but WG's first offer was £55 million! Its all too form the Minister wants so the Minister must get. What money will there be for investment/ improvements if they spend it all buying off the private bus operators? Answer= None.
 

Gareth Marston

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If it's confirmed that there would be a full split, I would initially be curious about how they justified it. Despite what you think, it's really rather hard for civil servants to come out with utterly daft transport schemes for implementation just because of some political beliefs. Sure, plenty of other policies can be crap but these are largely human-based ones like welfare or education, where it's much more subjective and woolly whether something will work or not. Infrastructure doesn't work that way - if the metal and concrete doesn't exist for the thing the politicians say they want, then no amount of political thinking is going to change that. If they do manage to come out with a technically impossible or blatantly inefficient scheme then I will not support it.

Civil Servants are there to advise and implement not to overrule and disobey. Welsh Government has form i.e finding £55 million to buy Cardiff Airport- Carwyn Jones expected Trans Atlantic carriers to beat a path WG door to land there..... Re-doubling Saltney Junction to Rossett for an hourly service to Holyhead that only the politicians want. Extra trains to Fishguard in election year, the botched up extra trains on the Heart of Wales. All these were of course accompanied by Press Releases telling us what great world class ideas WG had come up with. The previous Transport Minister Edwina Hart was so paranoid that her officials were acting against her she took great delight in doing the opposite to what they advised - we ended up with extra trains on the Cambrian because of it!
 

gareth950

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Possibly only the Welsh Government think that spending £55 million on a ailing regional airport was worth it. As to a successful Model of Acquistion the private firm that were making loses on it thought they hit the jackpot when offered it. Rumour at the time was they were prepared to go as low as £15 to £20 million to get rid of it but WG's first offer was £55 million! Its all too form the Minister wants so the Minister must get. What money will there be for investment/ improvements if they spend it all buying off the private bus operators? Answer= None.

Civil Servants are there to advise and implement not to overrule and disobey. Welsh Government has form i.e finding £55 million to buy Cardiff Airport- Carwyn Jones expected Trans Atlantic carriers to beat a path WG door to land there..... Re-doubling Saltney Junction to Rossett for an hourly service to Holyhead that only the politicians want. Extra trains to Fishguard in election year, the botched up extra trains on the Heart of Wales. All these were of course accompanied by Press Releases telling us what great world class ideas WG had come up with. The previous Transport Minister Edwina Hart was so paranoid that her officials were acting against her she took great delight in doing the opposite to what they advised - we ended up with extra trains on the Cambrian because of it!

The side effect of a government that has comfortably been in power for 19 years, where AMs and ministers have jobs for life or can step down at the time of their choosing, and has no credible opposition to threaten or challenge it for the forseeable future.
I'm not saying that any of the opposition parties would do any better. But the Welsh government need to at least feel threatened and challenged to keep them accountable. They don't even feel that.
 
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Del1977

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Possibly only the Welsh Government think that spending £55 million on a ailing regional airport was worth it. As to a successful Model of Acquistion the private firm that were making loses on it thought they hit the jackpot when offered it. Rumour at the time was they were prepared to go as low as £15 to £20 million to get rid of it but WG's first offer was £55 million! Its all too form the Minister wants so the Minister must get. What money will there be for investment/ improvements if they spend it all buying off the private bus operators? Answer= None.

My parents were outraged at the purchase of Cardiff Airport. Not entirely sure why the WAG thought they could run it better than the private owners. Not clear to me who they think is going to use the airport, as its catchment area is the 2m or so people in South Wales. A definite mistake and certainly not worth £55m plus the money required to either - 1: Keep it going / subsidise it, or 2: Try to get it to turn a profit by investing more money in it.


On TfW's other plans - rather than buying out bus companies, I think they'd be better off trying to run a system like London's, where routes are contracted by TfL but operated by private companies. The municipal bus companies in Cardiff & Newport can bid for services.
 

NotATrainspott

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I suspect that inadequate rolling stock provision is down to the sort of penny pinching which you have spent the last several weeks arguing strongly in favour of, while at the same time trying to play down the actual flaws of any LR system in Britain, whether current or proposed.

Supporting LR is not penny-pinching. Going for a system which can do the same good for less money is not penny-pinching. It is good transport planning.

Can you please explain to me how providing a covered place for people to sit would slow Metrolink services down, or make system operations prohibitively expensive ? You are descending into self-parody. Oh, and as I pointed out before, Metrolink isn't actually very cheap for pasengers, compared to Northern services around Manchester.

Remind me again where I said that Metrolink causes rain?

I note that your comments on the provision of canopies are qualified with 'as far as I'm aware'. I'm starting to wonder if you knoe Manchester any better than you know South Wales. In fact, a number of Metrolink stops have bus-style shelters, while others have fully enclosed waiting facilities in ex-HR station buildings, of the type you would probably dynamite aa being too luxurious for people outside London.[/QUOTE]

There's no need to provide a full blown waiting room when you're only going to wait a few minutes at most. If one is already there at time of conversion, then there's not much reason to knock it down. The primary problem is for new-build stations as meaningful waiting areas require significant land take. There are minimum standards for platform width and a waiting area would add additional width on top. If a station is in a cutting, or particularly on a street-running section, this can have fairly significant knock-on effects for civil and traffic engineering.

I know that you are determined not ti engage with how real humans actually behave, but you might want to think about those comments about sitting in the rain again. Do you think that gettinv drenched for their sins will attract people back to a particular form of transport? Or will they use another form of transport - including for the vast majority of people a metal boxwith 4 wheels which goes brrrm brrrm - the next time they make the same journey ?

Would people rather have somewhere marginally nicer to wait for their train, or to have a shorter time to wait in the first place?

People will switch from cars to public transport when it is more cost-effective and convenient for the journeys people want to make. LR by nature makes it easier for that to happen. Someone working in Oldham High Street might have previously had no choice but to use the car to get to work, since the train didn't stop that nearby and the DMU service was infrequent and didn't have much of an early and late service. As a direct result of Metrolink, that journey is now easier - the tram goes closer to the place where they work, and it runs more frequently throughout the day. Whether or not Oldham Mumps station had a nice waiting room was pretty much irrelevant to these people.

As I have repeatedly said, yes, people use it, because there are still people who want to leave Altrincham or Bury by public transport. To argue that a light rail service must be popular, good quality etc because people no longer use an HR service which no longer exists is an interesting position.

You have repeatedly argued that Metrolink provides an unequivocally worse service than HR. Clearly, Metrolink is not just of equivalent popularity, but is massively more popular. Doubling passenger numbers in a matter of years on an already-electrified line is not common.

So you are planning a transport system not on the basis of trying to attract people out of their cars, but on the basis of providing as basic a service as possible on the assumption that there will always be someone who has no choice but to use it. Do you wanr to actually see modal shift occur, or, as your repeated arguments in favour of downgrading public transport everywhere but London suggest, is cutting up-front spending the onky thing which worries you?

What if Gladys decides to get the bus to this cleaning job? Plenty of people travel very long distances on buses in Greater Manchester rather than make the same journey by Metrolink.

I do want to see modal shift occur, and that's why I support LR.

You're the one arguing that buses are useless and the segregated Valley Lines network is key. I'm saying you can take advantage of the segregated route through the suburbs and then run onto the streets where people are actually headed.
 

Dai Corner

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You're the one arguing that buses are useless and the segregated Valley Lines network is key. I'm saying you can take advantage of the segregated route through the suburbs and then run onto the streets where people are actually headed.

The point us locals are making is that Cardiff city centre is quite compact and mostly walkable from either Cathays, Queen Street or Central. Trains run through all three on a segregated route from the Vale of Glamorgan to the Valleys. There is simple no need for trams in the streets as long as the through running is maintained.

The fear is that from the evidence that has leaked out so far we will end up with two separate networks, longer walks which will put people off using the trains and the logistical problem of terminating all those services in the city centre. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Other cities are spending millions or billions building railway routes through their centres but Cardiff already has one.
 

gareth950

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I do want to see modal shift occur, and that's why I support LR.

You're the one arguing that buses are useless and the segregated Valley Lines network is key. I'm saying you can take advantage of the segregated route through the suburbs and then run onto the streets where people are actually headed.

As has been said over and over and over and over again, Cardiff's 3 main city centre stations already drop people off right in the heart of the city centre and 5 mins walk from the education, employment and retail areas they serve.

At Cathays, you are at the University the minute you walk through the ticket barriers. Trains pass underneath the Students Union, which was built over the line in the 1970s. Welsh Govt offices are 5 minutes away.
Queen Street is 5 minutes from the main shopping area.
Offices are a stone's throw from Central station, so is the Stadium.

On HR services not running early or late enough, Pontypridd and Barry have first services after 5am. The heads of the Valleys have first services after 6am. Services run through until midnight.
So not hugely different to London Underground in terms of start up & shut down times. Engineering work has to be carried out at some point.
TfW could run overnight express buses to the Valleys if it could be proved demand is there. Cardiff Bus have already started running night buses, a first in Wales.
 

Del1977

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As has been said over and over and over and over again, Cardiff's 3 main city centre stations already drop people off right in the heart of the city centre and 5 mins walk from the education, employment and retail areas they serve.

At Cathays, you are at the University the minute you walk through the ticket barriers. Trains pass underneath the Students Union, which was built over the line in the 1970s. Welsh Govt offices are 5 minutes away.
Queen Street is 5 minutes from the main shopping area.
Offices are a stone's throw from Central station, so is the Stadium.

On HR services not running early or late enough, Pontypridd and Barry have first services after 5am. The heads of the Valleys have first services after 6am. Services run through until midnight.
So not hugely different to London Underground in terms of start up & shut down times. Engineering work has to be carried out at some point.
TfW could run overnight express buses to the Valleys if it could be proved demand is there. Cardiff Bus have already started running night buses, a first in Wales.

Let's not pretend the current services are great. Evening services are hourly and the frequency drops quite early in the evening. Sunday services are a joke.
 

Gareth Marston

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As has been said over and over and over and over again, Cardiff's 3 main city centre stations already drop people off right in the heart of the city centre and 5 mins walk from the education, employment and retail areas they serve.

At Cathays, you are at the University the minute you walk through the ticket barriers. Trains pass underneath the Students Union, which was built over the line in the 1970s. Welsh Govt offices are 5 minutes away.
Queen Street is 5 minutes from the main shopping area.
Offices are a stone's throw from Central station, so is the Stadium.

On HR services not running early or late enough, Pontypridd and Barry have first services after 5am. The heads of the Valleys have first services after 6am. Services run through until midnight.
So not hugely different to London Underground in terms of start up & shut down times. Engineering work has to be carried out at some point.
TfW could run overnight express buses to the Valleys if it could be proved demand is there. Cardiff Bus have already started running night buses, a first in Wales.

Street running in Cardiff from the existing corridors would be a complete waste of time trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. If you want the gimmick of it then save it for the new lines coming in from the new housing devloments away from the heavy rail corridors.
 

NotATrainspott

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As has been said over and over and over and over again, Cardiff's 3 main city centre stations already drop people off right in the heart of the city centre and 5 mins walk from the education, employment and retail areas they serve.

At Cathays, you are at the University the minute you walk through the ticket barriers. Trains pass underneath the Students Union, which was built over the line in the 1970s. Welsh Govt offices are 5 minutes away.
Queen Street is 5 minutes from the main shopping area.
Offices are a stone's throw from Central station, so is the Stadium.

All of these places would still be a stone's throw away from the SWM with LR. What can be different is that extra places on top of these can also be a stone's throw away.

Clearly conversion of the Bay line is a particular desire of the Welsh Government. Using LR technology you can flatten the alignment out and make it easier for people to cross it. Yes, there's a little bit of a elevation distance but with street running capability, you can put in as many pedestrian crossings as you like rather than being restricted to under- and overbridges. Alternatively, put it down the middle of Lloyd George Avenue, maybe with some more stops in between. Depending on just how it's done it might be acceptable to run 100m trams along this bit. The Bay is an ideal place to have some LR accessibility.

I think LR is the best shot at giving the airport a direct rail link. The route can be mostly or wholly segregated, but can take advantage of the tighter curves and steeper gradients that LR permits. Building an HR branch would likely involve significant engineering works, without really making it any more useful for passengers (as in, an HR branch isn't going to become a key part of the HR rail network, as in Manchester or Heathrow).

These are easily resolvable without spending £700 million converting half of it to Light Rail though.

Solving them with HR means committing to spending lots of money in perpetuity on HR technology and staffing. A one-time investment means you can run the same services, or better, for less cost.
 

gareth950

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These are easily resolvable without spending £700 million converting half of it to Light Rail though.

Seconded.

Street running in Cardiff from the existing corridors would be a complete waste of time trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. If you want the gimmick of it then save it for the new lines coming in from the new housing devloments away from the heavy rail corridors.

Seconded.

I think LR is the best shot at giving the airport a direct rail link. The route can be mostly or wholly segregated, but can take advantage of the tighter curves and steeper gradients that LR permits. Building an HR branch would likely involve significant engineering works, without really making it any more useful for passengers (as in, an HR branch isn't going to become a key part of the HR rail network, as in Manchester or Heathrow).

A very popular HR branch from Queen St already exists.
A very frequent high capacity bus service already exists from the back of Central station to the heart of the Bay. Please don't tell me LR will be cheaper than this.
 

NotATrainspott

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A very popular HR branch from Queen St already exists.
A very frequent high capacity bus service already exists from the back of Central station to the heart of the Bay. Please don't tell me LR will be cheaper than this.

What extra places in the city centre are you thinking of?

The Bay branch could be even more successful if deeply integrated into the rest of the network. Instead of being a little DMU shuttle, it could be part of the core network. LR-ification north of Queen Street should allow extra services but these won't have as easy a time running onto the HR network. Run these extra services down to the Bay and you make the network much more useful for passengers and stimulate extra development down there. Big improvements to the Bay branch are much more likely and would be much more effective using that street-running capacity. The terminus could be moved closer to the attractions - for many people the few hundred metres to the station is enough to make them drive or get a taxi all the way home, while LR could provide a direct service pretty much all the way home.

LR is great in general about expanding the size of urban centres. When you're restricted to the existing railway line, all development really needs to be within a reasonable walking distance to take advantage of the services. While the walk-acceptable radius around a street running stop might not be as large (due to the more restricted services available) the fact is that you can have more of them, meaning more of the urban core and its surroundings are accessible. With one or two intermediate stops added and the terminus moved slightly further south, the Bay line could act as a bridge between the existing city centre and the development area at the Bay. Sites just south of Callaghan Square would be just that little bit more attractive, as would sites just north of the bay. Eventually you can encourage development to fill in the gaps and really make a difference for the city.
 

Llanigraham

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Alternatively, put it down the middle of Lloyd George Avenue, maybe with some more stops in between. Depending on just how it's done it might be acceptable to run 100m trams along this bit. The Bay is an ideal place to have some LR accessibility.

Have you actually looked at a map?
Please tell me how you are going to get 2 tram tracks down here?
<iframe src="https://www.google.com/maps/embed?p...80!4f-19.528370143033996!5f0.7820865974627469" width="600" height="450" frameborder="0" style="border:0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
And tell us how you are going to give access to it?

I think LR is the best shot at giving the airport a direct rail link. The route can be mostly or wholly segregated, but can take advantage of the tighter curves and steeper gradients that LR permits. Building an HR branch would likely involve significant engineering works, without really making it any more useful for passengers (as in, an HR branch isn't going to become a key part of the HR rail network, as in Manchester or Heathrow).

Do you actually know where Cardiff Rhoose Airport is?
 

gareth950

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Believe me, there is no more room for development in Cardiff. If anything, it is now starting to suffer from over-development at the expense of the surrounding areas.

You really don't understand how compact Cardiff as a a city is if you are suggesting LR will get passengers any closer to their destinations than the 3 main HR stations do.

The Bay is the only place where LR could possibly make a difference. But as I have said, it would just be a duplicate of the frequent, high-end, high-capacity shuttle bus service that already exists, following the exact same route.
 

Chester1

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I do like the look of this CAF tram train:

http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=211

(I can't quote due to layout of page).

I would prefer to ride a modern EMU but it looks like an improvement on old DMUs and a top speed of 100km/ph (62mph), exceeds a D train conversion. Its still not suited for an hour long journey though. I don't understand the obession with converting the longest routes and full light rail conversion. Penarth, Barry, Coryton, the Bay and Radyr could all be switched to tram trains sharing some track with some DMU services.
 

B&I

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Supporting LR is not penny-pinching. Going for a system which can do the same good for less money is not penny-pinching. It is good transport planning.

Providing a public transport system which is so low quality that it cannot attract new custom is penny-pinching, and counter-productive. If LR systems are so automatically wonderful, and so unbelievably cheap that super-duper provision is possible for all, can yiu explain why TfGM can't provide enough trams for passengers to get seats on an outbound tram at 9 on a Saturday?


There's no need to provide a full blown waiting room when you're only going to wait a few minutes at most. If one is already there at time of conversion, then there's not much reason to knock it down. The primary problem is for new-build stations as meaningful waiting areas require significant land take. There are minimum standards for platform width and a waiting area would add additional width on top. If a station is in a cutting, or particularly on a street-running section, this can have fairly significant knock-on effects for civil and traffic engineering.

Give me strength ! No-one is asking fir the equivalent of the St Pancras chamoagne bar. Are you seriously suggesting that there is some good engineering reason why bus stop-type shelters cannot be provided on light rail platforms ? If so, that suggests that light rail systems are being built to excessively low standards.


Would people rather have somewhere marginally nicer to wait for their train, or to have a shorter time to wait in the first place?

For about the fourth time, can you please explain why these two things are mutually exclusive ?


People will switch from cars to public transport when it is more cost-effective and convenient for the journeys people want to make. LR by nature makes it easier for that to happen. Someone working in Oldham High Street might have previously had no choice but to use the car to get to work, since the train didn't stop that nearby and the DMU service was infrequent and didn't have much of an early and late service. As a direct result of Metrolink, that journey is now easier - the tram goes closer to the place where they work, and it runs more frequently throughout the day. Whether or not Oldham Mumps station had a nice waiting room was pretty much irrelevant to these people.

People will not switch to a public transport system which, despite being more expensive than heavy rail over equivalent distances, is so low spec that there is not even somewhere dry to wait.


You have repeatedly argued that Metrolink provides an unequivocally worse service than HR. Clearly, Metrolink is not just of equivalent popularity, but is massively more popular. Doubling passenger numbers in a matter of years on an already-electrified line is not common.

In an era of generally rising rail use ? Forgive me if I'm not particularly impressed. Where do you get these statistics from anyway ?


I do want to see modal shift occur, and that's why I support LR.

You're the one arguing that buses are useless and the segregated Valley Lines network is key. I'm saying you can take advantage of the segregated route through the suburbs and then run onto the streets where people are actually headed.

Those services can be provided without destroying the HR capabilities of the existing lines they branch off from. As has been pointed out to you approximately 1.3 million times, from the available evidence, the only olace where street running is planned is the city centre, where it would be pointless in terms of extending scope of service, and would lead to substantially reduced capacity and much worse journey times.
 
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